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If you struggled with breastfeeding at first...

  1. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @MamaBear87: @snarkybiochemist: thank you you guys are awesome!

  2. MamaCate

    pomegranate / 3595 posts

    @periwinklebee: I wanted to say that you are doing amazing for trying so hard to create a successful feeding relationship with your son!

    As a side note on the tongue tie controversy between the LC and the pediatrician’s office, my dh is a pediatrician. When my second lo was born, one of the nurses said he had a tongue tie and I swear DH rolled his eyes. Then he actually looked at his mouth and agreed. Our ped did the same thing. Turns out there is a bit of contention between peds and LCs about tongue ties. The peds seem to think that the LCs can be quick to attribute everything to tongue ties. They worry that they are creating unnecessary intervention for the the babies.

    Anyway, in our case all the docs (and DH) agreed the tongue tie was so significant that it would interfere with speech in the future etc and we got it revised. It still took 6 weeks of full time pumping to get a latch though. Hope that helps!

  3. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @MamaCate: Thank you Super interesting! The IBCLC I saw seems to have a lot of experience dealing with pediatricians and uses a quantitative scale that concretely measures several elements of tongue function so that they know exactly why she thinks it is an issue. She also recommended an assessment by an ENT over a dentist because she said dentists tend to see tongue ties no matter what, which creates some controversy.

  4. birdofafeather

    pineapple / 12053 posts

    You’ve received a ton of support so I’ll just chime in about the tongue tie because with my first, the first ped we saw said, oh she’s got a bit of a tongue tie! I never realized it could be controversial and everything I read online about it said there were no downsides so we did it within a week. I cried because FTM, but it was really no issue at all. Hope you can get that resolved and it helps!

  5. MamaCate

    pomegranate / 3595 posts

    @periwinklebee: we had an ENT do ours and it was a good experience. I think there is a benefit in medicine to going to the people who deal with it all the time like ENT vs a dentist where that is not their main thing. I am not honestly sure what the downside is to getting the tongue tie fixed because it was so significant that there wasn’t much to think about.

    So it sounds like your LC is comfortable navigating this contentious issue which is great. I hope you have a good resolution whatever that works out to be! 🍀

  6. PumpyMcPumpsALot

    apple seed / 1 posts

    I don't have any answers, but as a long time lurker, wanted to create an account to let you know I'm in the same boat with my 13wo twins.

    I had a drama free nursing relationship with my older son, but tons of issues this time around. I have had 3 (luckily relatively mild) rounds of mastitis in the first 2 months. I'm also allergic to penicillins, so have had to take Clinda. I've been on a max dose of sunflower lecithin for a while now, but not sure how much it helps. I have to make sure to pump at least every 4 hours since I'm afraid of another clog.

    One thing I haven't tried yet, but plan to the next time I get a stubborn clogged duct is therapeutic ultrasound from a PT. As far as I understand, it's like the electric toothbrush on steroids. I also use a heated electric massager. I have a spectra and a symphony (rental) at home.

    I've met with 3 different LCs (in addition to the ones I saw while in the hospital) as well as a breast health specialist, and no one has been able to identify an acute issue. I feel like since the beginning, I've just been told that it might improve in another couple weeks when they are bigger (but it hasn't). The good news is that they eat from a bottle really well and have gained plenty of weight, so high level they are thriving.

    Like you, babies appear to have decent latches, but they can't consistently transfer milk well. They'll get a couple ounces and then basically just comfort suck. They had posterior tongue ties revised at 9 weeks, but so far I haven't noticed a huge difference. I think I need to try nursing for prolonged periods to see if they can catch on better, but am worried that's going to lead to more clogs and mastitis :'( I also don't think I can EP for a full year. I'd rather cut down to one or two pumps / bottles a day in that case, but also not sure how well that will work with respect to clogs.

    Anyway, I understand how much this situation sucks and I hope you find something that works for you!

  7. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @PumpyMcPumpsALot: Thank you (and great user name!) I'm so sorry you're going through this, and I can't even imagine dealing with all the clogs and recurrent mastitis with twins. I did hear about ultrasound, but haven't tried it. I think the toothbrush just made me sore, but I'm sure ultrasound is the more medically sound approach Do you find the spectra and symphony are pretty similar? I'm really sorry the tongue tie clip didn't make much of a difference. I've read stories online about people who had horrible clogs and then suddenly it got better and they went on to have a great experience, but I don't know how likely it is. My son if anything seems to be getting worse at feeding over time. My goal now is to try the LC's recommendations and anything else I can do to troubleshoot for another month, and if it's still this much of a struggle I'm giving myself permission to decide that moving to just formula may be the best thing for our family. I really hope things get better for you soon

    @MamaCate: Thank you, it's really encouraging to hear this, I'm still working on getting a referral to an ENT who the IBCLC said has a ton of experience with this, rather than the pediatrician's preferred ENT, who apparently doesn't have much experience, which the lactation consultant says makes it more likely that it will just grow back.

    @birdofafeather: Thank you, this is good to hear!

  8. bees_knees

    persimmon / 1064 posts

    @periwinklebee: I just skimmed the replies so sorry if any of this is repeat info or not applicable.

    I got clogs all. the. time. with DS1–he ended up having MSPI and after I cut out dairy I didn’t get a single one! Interestingly, I also feel much better when I don’t eat dairy (but only have the willpower to do so when it’s for a LO ) so I wonder if I have some sort of intolerance that was causing minor inflammation and therefore the clogged ducts? I dunno. DS2 and DS3 were/are also MSPI so I haven’t had dairy in 3 of the last 4 years—and no more clogs!

    Also, DS3 is about the same age as your DS (I think? 9 weeks) and he had a tongue tie release at 5.5 weeks old. Tongue tie wasn’t even on my radar at first because he was gaining weight really well and nursing wasn’t uncomfortable for me—but he had AWFUL gas and reflux and it was totally due to his crappy latch and taking in too much air. We had an ENT do the release and it was an awful 5 min procedure but made a WORLD of difference—he’s like a new baby!! Feel free to wall me with any questions!

  9. looch

    wonderful pear / 26210 posts

    @periwinklebee: My son had an undiagnosed tongue tie, but not the traditional one that they test with the thrust out, he had really thick muscles that prohibited side to side movement. It was finally diagnosed when he was 6, you read that right, and he had release surgery last year. I am convinced that if the hospital he was born in had checked for that, we would have been able to nurse and he wouldn't have needed 3 years of speech therapy. Good luck to you.

  10. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @bees_knees: Thank you - this is super interesting. My son makes all sort of gulping and gasping noises at the breast and likewise has really bad gas and reflux. I thought it might be dairy causing the gas so I tried cutting it for about a month, then after I had mastitis and the antibiotic totally screwed up my GI, I started eating yogurt again. I read somewhere that you can prevent clogs by cutting saturated fat, which apparently makes the milk thinner (and dairy can have saturated fat I think) but IDK, maybe it's worth a try. It's really encouraging that this made a huge difference for you.

    @looch: wow, that's crazy! One of the tests the IBCLC did was side to side, and my LO scored particularly poorly on that. She said that the latch can look good if side to side movement is a problem so it is often not considered. I know that as a baby I wanted to be on the breast all the time and was never satisfied - and later had to be in speech therapy for a couple of years - so I wonder if I had an undiagnosed tongue tie and my son gets it from me... I'm really glad you were finally able to figure things out, but sorry you had to go through so much first

  11. nana87

    cantaloupe / 6171 posts

    Oh bee this is so hard! You are such a champ for working so hard at this!

    I had a rough time with nursing my first. I had mastitis around 6 weeks and it just tanked my supply, I think, and at her 2 month wellbaby visit we found out she had fallen off the growth chart (she was born at 3rd percentile). I saw the worlds meanest lc who was super discouraging, and started combo feeding. Lo1’s weight picked up at she’s been around 25th percentile since. We combo fed til 1 when we dropped formula for wcm. I kept nursing her til 22 months. Lo2 has been way easier! Still nursing now at 13.5m

  12. LemonJack

    persimmon / 1130 posts

    I’m another one chiming in about tongue ties. After our first DD was born a nurse said she had a minor tongue tie. Our doctor said correction was up to us. We waited a couple of weeks, but nursing was horrible! We had it clipped and it really did help. She had to learn to relatch, and nursing was still painful for quite awhile, but it did get better and I ended up nursing her over a year.

    We had DD2 checked in the hospital and she didn’t have a tongue tie. Nursing with her was so much easier. She was able to latch well.

    You’re doing a great job! Breastfeeding is so, so hard! If you need to supplement or switch it’s not the end of the world, but I totally understand the disappointment.

  13. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @nana87: ugh, this sounds really stressful, and having a good lactation consultant is so important, I'm sorry you had a bad experience but it is encouraging that it ultimately worked out to nurse as long as you did!

    @LemonJack: That's awesome and very encouraging that it helped!

    I'm really, really holding my breath on this one, as it's been another not great day with feeding... after getting a painful clog out yesterday, I had another one form overnight that is just getting worse, and spent the better part of the day nursing and massaging (ouch), then pumping after each session and supplementing him with the pumped milk. We got in with the ENT we wanted to see on Tuesday b/c she had a cancellation - the pediatrician agreed he should see an ENT but their policy is to refer to an ENT in their same medical practice, who the lactation consultant warned us against based on negative experiences of her other clients. I sent a request to the practice's referral office and am just holding my breath it will go through... It really annoys me because the ENT I want to see is in-network for insurance but just doesn't happen to be in the same group as the pediatrician...

  14. MrsSRS

    nectarine / 2987 posts

    That clogs and dairy being related theory is interesting. My first baby had mspi so I was off dairy and had no clogs. Second baby I ate tons of dairy and had clogs until I went on a ton of lecithin. Like, popping handfuls of those horse pills. I'd never considered a dietary culprit...interesting. Good luck!!

  15. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    I wanted to give an update.

    Yesterday we had LO's tongue tie corrected by a pediatric dentist. From looking at pictures online, it was pretty obvious to us that he had a tongue tie, and the dentist agreed that he had a very clear tongue tie. I spent too much of my week on the phone with the medical group that provides our pediatric care trying to get a referral to an ENT. to correct it, which would have been covered by our insurance. In the end, the best they would do is to provide a referral to an ENT in the same medical group, who could not get us in for nearly two months. We chose to go to a dentist because they have a clearly posted price, whereas I could not get blue cross/blue shield to give me a timely estimate of what it would cost to see an ENT without a referral. The mouth is apparently one of the main contested areas of the body, with dentists and ENTs having strong and opposing views about who is the most qualified to address issues beyond the routine dental stuff that may arise

    The dentist said he would get quite fatigued eating for the first few days while trying to develop new muscles in his tongue but should adjust well within a week. So far this has been true for us, though the latch already feels somewhat different. We have to do stretches and PT exercises four times a day for a month to keep the tissue from reattaching and to strengthen the area.

    I initially didn't think tongue tie because the latch looked good from the outside and everyone told me he had a great latch. When I did ask at the pediatrician's office about it, I was told by the lactation consultant there that he did not have a tongue tie because he can stick his tongue outside his mouth. Neither of these things are true, the dentist told me that the look of the latch from the outside is more determined by range of motion of the lips than the tongue. All common symptoms that we should have noticed: sliding on and off easily/not staying latched on if I moved even slightly, wanting to cluster feed all day and night, slow eater, needing me to do lots of compressions to take a fuller feed, noisy eater with lots of gulping air, reflux, and clogs and mastitis for me.

    I've been using the spectra and my output has been slowly but steadily increasing with it. I think to prevent clogged ducts at this point I would need to pump after every single feed since he never empties me out. I pump as much as I can, though it's not always practical when it takes him an hour to eat and then he often needs to be topped up with a bottle afterwards - I literally spend pretty much my whole day dealing with breastfeeding. But they are a little less common and have resolved much more quickly since I switched from medala to spectra.

    I'm hoping that we'll see improvements in the efficiency of feeding before I start back to work full time in two and a half weeks. If not I'm worried that for feasibility we'll need to switch to exclusive pumping, which I'd prefer not to do, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

  16. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    @periwinklebee: how is it going? Is your guy eating faster?
    Pumping full time sucks but it does mean you know exactly how much they are eating. Don't get too sucked into the numbers game of pumping and allow yourself to do what works best for you and him.

  17. mrsbubbletea

    nectarine / 2821 posts

    @periwinklebee: I just saw you got the tie clipped! I hope things are getting better and baby boy is improving s little bit. I am still so amazed by your dedication and strength!

  18. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @snarkybiochemist: @mrsbubbletea: Thank you all - you guys are the best

    I'm hoping that we're moving in the right direction, I'm feeling him sometimes get a better latch - and he's much less like to slide off of it - though he is often still not latching great. I think there will be a relearning and strengthening process, and he has his first cold (which he also passed to me), so probably not the best time to learn. In an attempt to avoid clogs, I pumped after every daytime feeding session this weekend (ugh). I was typically getting one to two ounces out (after feedings where he would end frustrated, wanting more, and we'd top him off with a bottle). So there's definitely still aways to go, but hopefully we'll get there. The spectra does seem to be helping with the clogged ducts, now getting them every few days instead of every day, and knock on wood they've been smaller and much easier to get out, though it's a huge time commitment, as I'm also doing a bunch of massaging and compressions during pumping. Right now it feels like we really can't leave the house - or have people over - when every feeding session involves a long time at the breast, then pumping, and a top up.

  19. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    @periwinklebee: moving in the right direction is good. Baby colds are the worst, when E had her first one she barely at all so I wish you luck with feeding during this time.

  20. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @snarkybiochemist: ugh, how often has she gotten sick? Google told me to expect kids in daycare to get sick every two weeks for the first year, and given that a cold often lasts a little more than a week, not a happy thought...Both DH and I have it and think it's pretty bad - poor baby, though he seems much less upset by it than I would have expected.

  21. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    @periwinklebee: 2 colds 1 at 6 weeks before daycare that my husband gave her and one at 14 weeks after being at daycare for 2 weeks. She is generally more congested but not really sick but she is also starting teething so I'm not sure what's causing all of her congestion now.

  22. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @snarkybiochemist: she's around 5 months now, right, so in daycare a couple of months? That doesn't seem horrible...

  23. mrsbubbletea

    nectarine / 2821 posts

    @periwinklebee: so glad it sounds like a lot of little steps in the right direction! Awesome. My daughter has had like 8 colds so far! And she’s not even in daycare. But it’s preschool germs passed on from her big bro

  24. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    @periwinklebee: 5 months old and 2 months at daycare. It could be a lot worse

  25. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @mrsbubbletea: I tell my husband he better just get used to us all being sick all the time, he's not happy about it

    @snarkybiochemist: thank you! it sounds like she has an awesome immune system!

  26. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    I just wanted to give another update that we've seen night and day improvements since clipping my LO's tongue tie about two and a half weeks ago. His weight gain has been great, he took twice as much in a weighted feed (at the same time of day) in less time then he did before, and i haven't had a clogged duct in 2 weeks. I think he's more comfortable now too - perhaps gas and reflux are improving as a result of a more effective latch - because he's been such a happy, smiley baby. I feel physically much, much better, and think I may have been battling a persistent infection from all the clogs before. As I've mentioned, the pediatrician's office dismissed our concerns, but it's clear in our case that this was causing major issues - the latch feels completely different and so much more effective now. I know there will probably be other challenges along the way, but Im so happy that breastfeeding is feeling more feasible now.

  27. gingerbebe

    cantaloupe / 6131 posts

    @periwinklebee: Yay!!

  28. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    @periwinklebee: Awesome update, so happy for you guys

  29. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @snarkybiochemist: Thank you How are things going for you?

  30. snarkybiochemist

    nectarine / 2180 posts

    Good E has just started solids which is fun, she is teething which is a little less fun

  31. DesertDreams88

    grapefruit / 4361 posts

    @periwinklebee: yay!!! So glad things are better.

  32. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @gingerbebe: @DesertDreams88: Thank you!

    @snarkybiochemist: I'm looking forward to solids, and not so much to teething I hope E feels better soon, and that the solids make up for some of the discomfort

  33. Iced Tea

    persimmon / 1310 posts

    @periwinklebee: That’s so great! I’m thrilled that you’re feeling so much better.

  34. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @Iced Tea: Thank you - it is such a relief, things were feeling pretty unsustainable before...

  35. SweetiePie

    honeydew / 7463 posts

    @periwinklebee: great update! So happy to hear.
    Curious if you will stay with your pediatrician?

  36. periwinklebee

    grapefruit / 4466 posts

    @SweetiePie: Thanks! There's only one medical group that we are allowed to use, but we are switching to a different nearby office. I kind of doubt it will be dramatically better - I think most pediatricians are just not that knowledgable about breastfeeding even if they try to sell their practice that way - but we haven't been overly pleased in general so might as well see if we like the other office better.

  37. mrsbubbletea

    nectarine / 2821 posts

    @periwinklebee: such great news

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