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If your children lived with you indefinitely (past college)...

  1. T.H.O.U.

    wonderful clementine / 24134 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: But dont you think parenting norms have always been evolving? I think it goes in cycles. Free range is all the rage for a while (play outside until the street lights come on) and then shifts back to watch your kids/helecopter parents.

    Also I think also we as society may have lost a bit of you may do it different but its not always wrong. Meaning, someone nagging your kids to get their feet off the coffee table isn't going to kill them. Sure you may not mind them doing that but does it matter?

  2. looch

    wonderful pear / 26210 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: Regarding national salary, do you think it's really going that way, considering the strong trend that's currently going on our government to do away with federal intervention? I just don't see the current GOP being on board with that, especially considering they want to bring back coal production and manufacturing jobs.

  3. MrsSCB

    pomelo / 5257 posts

    Depends on the situation. I lived at home for six months after college while doing an unpaid internship. My parents would have been fine with longer, and my sister still sort of lives at home at 27, though she spends most of the time at her boyfriend's house. I think it would have been different if we'd been unemployed and not making a concerted effort to find a job. We're also from an extremely high cost of living area, so that plays a role as well. So basically I think that there are too many variables to give a certain answer

  4. yellowbird

    honeydew / 7303 posts

    I'll buy them a house, hahahaah

  5. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @T.H.O.U.: I think it is more like a spiral vs a cycle or a pendulum. I think we may cycle back but some things get hopefully permanently dropped from the culture. For example, I am a lot more conscious about not spoiling my kids with material items but I also am not planning to send em to the mines at five. That sounds ridiculous but of course 100 years ago that was the reality in my town! So yeah I think we do cycle through but each cycle has fewer extremes on each end. I mean, in the 40s we detained the Japanese but nowadays DJT tried to detain in airports and people were in the streets immediately to protest. So I do think we learn from history and are just struggling toward balance.

  6. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @looch: I think that what the GOP is like selling essential oils for cancer. You may feel good about it and smell good, but it ain't doing anything for cancer. Automation, globalization, and the ride of green energy I think is just where the market is going. Not just because of global warming but because green energy can bring new buyers to market. Plus the reality is, we rely on globalization to an extent that we cannot comprehend.

    I read a great metaphor that HRC was selling palliative care for what society used to be like, a way to transition. Whereas DJT is selling snake oil. Either way, it won't treat the root cause.

  7. catgirl

    nectarine / 2018 posts

    If they are working towards something, being a productive member of society, and respectful of us/the house - then sure. Almost all of my friends lived at home for at least a few months after graduating college. Some just for the summer until grad school, some while job hunting, and some for longer periods of time while interning or working. A few of my friends were able to take incredible (unpaid) internships that led to great jobs, they were only able to do that by living at home.

    Also the people I know who didn't live at home for awhile after graduating were still getting help from parents in other ways. Such as cell phone bills, insurance, or even rent money.

  8. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @looch: I realized that I didn't answer your question. One of my favorite philosophers said something along the lines that "revolutions never happen until they are necessary." I sort of took that to mean that it is hard to get people to buy in when they can rationalize that it isn't necessary. When it becomes necessary, people get organized. I think that if DJT gets what he wants people will finally wsee that it does not, will not work for real. After that I think people may be on board with the idea of a national income. We may be too old to really benefit, but perhaps our kids will.

  9. ValentineMommy

    pomelo / 5791 posts

    Our background:
    I moved out at 18, for college, and never came home.
    My brother moved back once, in his 30's briefly, for a transitional phase.
    DH lived at home until he moved in with me.
    I will say that DH 100% has the least amount of "life skills".

    For us:
    Provided they went to school and/or had a reasonable productive life/career, I would be fine with my kids staying with us forever, I think. I would rather they stay with us than move far away....that's a definite!

  10. looch

    wonderful pear / 26210 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I think we can bring people back to the coal mines, but I don't think there's a market for the product. The world has moved on from that, they realize that it's dirty and that clean, renewable energy is the future. I would love to see investment in solar energy. I agree with you, that automation is happening whether the Rust Belt wants it to or not. It's already happened, in fact.

    I am curious to see how other countries handle national income. I think other parts of the world will get there first, and as usual, in America, we'll be resistant, just as we are toward nationalized healthcare.

  11. Anagram

    eggplant / 11716 posts

    I think this thread has been good at highlighting how often we as humans use our own personal experiences to form opinions. I would love to see some real data about say, financial well being of adults who have lived independently since say 18 vs those who lived at home for some time. And compare that data in the US to other countries where it's very common for young adults to live with their parents (Italy, for example.)

    My personal experience definitely skews my opinions. My friends in HS were the highly motivated types--the "nerds" that were constantly jockeying over grades and who would be valedictorian, etc. All of us went to college. I was the only one that didn't have some type of financial help from my parents to get through college (I took out loans for tuition, I always had to work part time to pay my living expenses and room and board). My financial obligations during that time were really a detriment--while my friends were doing unpaid internships to get them experience in their field, I was waiting tables at Olive Garden, and typing purchase orders in the Chemistry department. While they graduated with no undergrad loans, I graduated with many--and as we entered our young adult lives, I already had a few stumbling blocks to success. Many of my friends lived at home while they job hunted, and waited until just the right offer came along. I literally couldn't afford that luxury and I graduated with 1 degree, but immediately started working in another field (teaching) because I had to make rent and just needed any job I could get. And 14 years later, I'm still in education when all along I wanted to work in publishing. But I had to make certain decisions based on the fact that I knew my parents weren't going to help me financially while I took unpaid internships.

    All of my friends are now pretty successful. And while I don't think I'm "uncessful", I often wondered where I would have ended up if I had parents that were less of the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality.

    I also compare my siblings to my husband and his only sibling. My parents were always very much focused on independence, so all of us except the mentally ill sister left the family home early. Even the sister who had a teenage pregnancy and lived at home for a bit, moved out as soon as she got married at the age of only 18. I do wonder if she would have gotten married if my parents were more open to helping (that marriage didn't last long, not surprisingly). The rest of us are all productive adults with various degrees and stable jobs, for the most part. And we are all squarely in the middle class. But none of us (not taking into account our spouses and their incomes) would ever be more than mid-middle class or even low-middle class with the careers we each have. And I know some of that is because we've had to make choices based on financial need. Compare that to my husband, whose parents definitely instilled a value of education and hard work, but who also hoarded pennies and lived extremely simply to pay for their college educations, to help pay their living expenses, who let them live at home while completing internships. Now my husband and his sister both work in finance, do pretty well for themselves, are more upper middle class, etc. And they were able to get a jump start on things like saving for down payments for a house because they didn't have crippling student loans.

    It seems there is a spectrum where parents may somehow fail to instill a value of hard work on one side, and end up with lazy adult children who experience "failure to launch", and on the opposite end you may have parents inadvertently cripple their child's chances but given them huge financial burdens at a young age. It seems like there's a lot of middle ground between those extremes that parents can hopefully find.

    It's all very interesting.

  12. travellingbee

    hostess / papaya / 10219 posts

    Indefinitely? Well, I hope for my boys to become independent successful adults so... I guess that certainly isn't ideal. In a pinch? I would hope they always know they can come home anytime they need to. It wouldn't bother me per se, but it isn't ideal. I'm sure I'd love to have them with me though. My oldest told us this weekend that since he is almost 4, he is going to move out pretty soon and get his own house. But we are allowed to visit.

  13. IRunForFun

    pomelo / 5509 posts

    My parents always welcomed any of the 3 of us back home if we needed it for any reason. A breakup, losing a job, whatever. I hope I'd do the same for my kids, as long as they were productive and contributing to society and the household. Even now if anything were to happen I know I could always go "home." It's so nice having that safe space and I hope I can provide the same for my kids.

  14. Freckles

    honeydew / 7444 posts

    I would be fine with it, however, they would have to pull their weight. I wouldn't be happy if they were just lazing about and not contributing to household chores. I would want to know whether they had a plan and help them to the goal of getting back on their feet.

    DH and i both knew we could turn move back home if we needed to. It's the cultural norm. I know my parents always balked at the western norm of telling their kids they are out of the house at 18.

  15. travellingbee

    hostess / papaya / 10219 posts

    @Anagram: My experience was almost exactly like yours. Interesting. My husband's was very different. He was financially supported through college, so he didn't leave with any debt. And he did move back home after college for a bit because he couldn't find a job. But before long, he moved to another city where there were more opportunities and struck out on his own.

  16. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @looch: what is scary is that China is outpacing us in green innovation. When China is more innovative than you, you know you have a problem!

  17. looch

    wonderful pear / 26210 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: Well, they want to step into the role of leader of the free world, since the US policy now has us turning inward. I don't blame them, but I worry about the future.

  18. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @Anagram: I completely agree with you with regards to our current social setup...But with college becoming a more risky investment and jobs scarce, I think the narrative is changing. Your friends who were affluent may have used being at home as a step up into an awesome career 14 years ago. But I have a friend who just graduated with an MBA who can't seem to get out of the unpaid internship rut. I live in rural GA and the issue around here is more kids coming home, not finding a stable job, and just landing at home indefinitely. Marriage rates are dropping (most responses here seem to assume that their kids will marry but I have three college educated siblings who went to excellent high schools and had all the advantages of life and they are all set on never getting married or having children, and most of my high school friends are still unmarried or at least childfree). And of course here we have the meth, heroin epidemic that seems to pick up young people who have no direction. So I think depending on where you are on the spectrum of affluence, parental involvement past a certain point can either be a help up or just plain old enabling or just the natural consequence of the economy changing. It is interesting to consider the possibility that we may not actually have the choice the way our parents did.

  19. gingerbebe

    cantaloupe / 6131 posts

    @Anagram: I totally understand your POV. My parents are broke and have always been broke and my brother and I went to a magnet high school with SUPER wealthy kids who all are way more wealthy now because they had help with college, cars, first homes, weddings, etc. My brother and I worked 3 jobs to put ourselves through school and we did move home between school years or a few months transitioning between jobs, but we never felt like living with our parents was really desirable or a real longterm option given how aggravating living in a tiny, cramped house with my insane parents is. We both came out with student loans and have always, always worked, while often also running side gigs and businesses. We don't have the option of getting help from our folks and unlike most of our friends, we will not benefit from any generational wealth. We're actually helping to support our parents now and I spend more each month helping them than I put towards my kids college funds.

    But my brother and I also feel like our ABILITY to hustle is invaluable. Both of us are frugal and very responsible financially and are very fixated on financial stability (even if we're middle class) than we are on being rich. But we also don't worry about meeting some financial situation where we lose a job or whatever because we're entrepreneurial and we have that hustle factor.

    I want to teach that to my kids, so if part of their hustle game is shacking up with me for a while, that's fine. But I will not let them just sit around and dawdle through life asking me to fill out their job applications or help them pay their cell phone bills. If they're living at home, they better have a plan and you're just going to have to live with me and Dad nagging and giving you a lot of career advice.

    DH and I want to help pay for college and weddings (something we did not get the benefit of) but we've also talked about making it conditional - like if you keep a certain GPA and work jobs and internships to move your career forward, then we will gift you with money to pay back some of your loans, or something like that.

    Do I want my kids to struggle? No. But if it means they learn life skills to keep themselves afloat, I think that is more valuable. And DH and I are working hard so that we can not be a burden on my kids in old age AND hopefully leave them with some kind of inheritance, so they will already get a lot more out of this than my brother and I ever will. So if I'm leaving them with money when I leave this earth, I want them to be able to manage it wisely and grow it generationally for my grandkids.

    Furthermore, to @Mrs. Sketchbook: original thought process, I think one of the most valuable things I can ever give my children is a healthy longterm marriage with their father. I want them to see us reach and enjoy a hard-won retirement, I want them to see us enjoy spending time together in old age, I want them to see us responsibly move into a smaller home that doesn't burden THEM as adults, I want them to see us travel and have fun life experiences, and I want them to watch us lovingly care for one another til death. Because those are also vital skills I want my boys to have.

  20. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @T.H.O.U.: looking back at this thread! I definitely don't mind a librarian colding my kids, but it would be different to have that librarian in your house all the time... Actually the librarian owns the house...! My ILs for example have had a hard time letting go of that natural authority that comes with being a parent. Even into our late 20s my FIL would admonish us for eating snacks on vacation because it would "ruin our dinner" haha!

  21. Eko

    nectarine / 2148 posts

    In extreme situations I would not, but more than likely would always welcome them back into the house. I lived at home during summers in college, but never have since. I think if my kids need help in some form or another I will always be willing to give it. I would likely stop doing it if my help was being taken for granted. I don't really think living outside the home is a metric for being successful or productive.

  22. ShootingStar

    coconut / 8472 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I think your location/experiences are coloring your view of the future. I have no reason to think there won't be jobs in the future for my kids. I'm actually hopefully that with all the scientific innovations there will be *more* jobs. I currently work in an industry where we are begging for qualified people. We take months to fill a position because everyone is hiring.

    As for the original question, I will always be there for my kids. If they need to live with us for some time, that's ok. The important thing is that they're working towards being independent. It's important to me as a parent that I teach my kids about what kind of careers are out there and what kind of lifestyles their choices can afford them.

    If they graduate and have a tough time finding a job they can live with us and work at Target or wherever and spend time sending out resumes and cover letters. They can also live with us while they're in grad school. But if they're constantly going from one minimum wage job to the next and always need our support, I'm going to feel like I've failed as a parent.

  23. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @ShootingStar: you know, I was just coming back here to share this link because it was relevant to the discussion:

    https://www.wired.com/2017/02/programming-is-the-new-blue-collar-job/

    I think "coloring" is an interesting way to describe it. I think a lot of people are concerned about this issue. The NEET problem is easy to see in other countries, and in our rural areas. Certainty this is why Trump was elected. If a large minority of voters feel that this is an issue, is it really fair to say that their views are being "colored"? I think maybe people who are affluent are perhaps viewing the world through a lens that isn't entirely accurate.

    I'm really lucky to be white collar in a blue collar town. My husband is an attorney, I'm a community college teacher. We earn an adequate living to be able to raise our kids, but we don't live in an ideological bubble. Trump's election was entirely unsurprising to me. Perhaps in 40 years someone will have invented something that helps us ease into a largely automated economy with no transition pains. That being said, there are a lot of people in the transition pains right now that I think would be shocked to heard that their difficulties are just a matter of perspective....

  24. anonysquire

    cantaloupe / 6923 posts

    I would love it!!! I never want to be an empty nester. Obviously I want all my kids to succeed and get married and all that, but I would love if they stay close. Or at my house haha. Just what this helicopter mom needs

  25. Cole

    grapefruit / 4649 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I chuckled at your story about your in laws admonishing you for snacking- that is my mil! "I'm going to cook dinner in 2 hours, you don't need a snack!"

    @Anagram: you hit on a lot of things that ring true from my experiences too. I think that my goal is to help my children have a good start to adulthood through things like realistic expectations of the job market in their desired field, support for internships, financial help for college etc. I certainly expect them to feel welcome to live at home during transition periods of their lives. I think they key for me will be for all of us to find a balance so dh and I don't feel taken advantage of or resentful. My mom always offered help but would get so resentful when people took her up on it- largely because she was so stretched thin both financially and just in terms of mental health. My ultimate goal is not to let myself be in that same place, we work hard to be able to live reasonably comfortably and if one of our children decided they would rather coast through life than work hard towards a goal it will be really hard to deal with and I don't ever want to be resentful of my children.

  26. SweetiePie

    honeydew / 7463 posts

    @gingerbebe: word for word

  27. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @Cole: you know the flip side of that is what gingerbebe said. Just like I don't want to resent my kids, I also don't want them to resent me which is why I am planning to downsize, I don't store stuff, and of course we save for retirement and even are hoping to be able to afford nursing home insurance soon (can't remember the official name of it right now). I don't want any level of codependency that causes strife from me to the kids or the kids back to me. My DH's grandmother had 8 kids yet spent her last 6 years in a nursing home and they had to sell her house to pay off her nursing home debts. My DH does a lot of estate planning work and tells me stories like that all of the time. Having kids is definitely not insurance against loneliness or poverty in old age so I feel like it is my job to handle myself. Sortof like how financial planners always tell you to contribute to your retirement plan before you contribute to your college savings plan.

  28. Cole

    grapefruit / 4649 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: Yes! I know so many people who really struggle with their relationships with their parents because their parents didn't plan for all (or any) of those things. We currently put away a lot less for college than may be ideal because our priority is financial independence through the end of our lives. I would hate for our relationships to suffer because our kids are frustrated by trying to figure out how to take care of us/convince us to downsize etc.

  29. sarac

    pomelo / 5093 posts

    Hellllllll no. If it were a 'working to save up for a down payment or first months rent' kind of thing, sure. But just living with me forever? No no no, that is not how I'm raising my children. One of my conditions for paying for their college will be that they come out of it with a job skill that pays a living wage - through training, work experience, etc. I want to set them up to be successful adults.

  30. Mrs. Lemon-Lime

    wonderful pea / 17279 posts

    If my child lived with me indefinitely past college...I sure hope it was a choice and not because they could not afford to live on their own. My mom gave me the gift of living at home after I returned from college with a job. I saved so much money. Why pay rent if you live in the same city, get along with your parent(s) and everyone is okay with the arrangement? When I was no longer okay with the arrangement I moved out.

    I would probably internalize and blame myself if my child could not move out for whatever reason. Living at home with your parents is not a goal, IMO.

  31. Mama Bird

    pomegranate / 3127 posts

    If my kids want to live with me, or very close to me, they'll be welcome. I'll still expect them to be mature adults (working and all that) but it's not unusual in my culture and often a good thing. I've seen it play out both ways and it makes a big difference when grandparents are around to care for grandkids, and when grown children can look after their parents when they in turn need help. Plus, the elderly aren't surrounded by just other elderly people, and the kids have more adults in their life.

    That said, I'm going to encourage my kids to leave the place we're living in, because it's a dump and I think it's my biggest failure that I've ended up raising them here. If they move miles away, I'll totally understand.

  32. ShootingStar

    coconut / 8472 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: So yes, I do still think "colored" is appropriate. I think traditionally, rural areas have always been tough to find jobs in. And if the people you're talking about are the types that are bemoaning the loss of dying industries like coal and manufacturing, then yes absolutely. It doesn't mean there aren't jobs out there and there aren't industries that are booming.

    I do think the days of making a solid living on a high school education are pretty much over. But again, that doesn't mean there will be no jobs for our kids when they grow up.

    And I read that article a day or two ago. I sort of agreed with it, but not really. I do think that software development can be a hugely prevalent field. And I don't think you necessarily need to be a computer science genius to be one. But you do need some intense education in it. I'm a software designer and I know some HTML/CSS and to say that a miner with no experience can just jump into javascript (a language I can only somewhat read, much less write in) is a BIG stretch.

  33. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @ShootingStar: would you then also agree that your perspective is colored by the success that you've had in tech and your desire to see your educational investments bear out over time? Your anticipation that your background in tech will lay a strong foundation for your own kid/s? And possibly by your geographical distance from others who do not share your same background?

    I'm not in tech but I do have the honor of teaching beginning writing about a zillion rural community college computer science majors. Two of my brothers, who live in a major metro area, are majoring in CS and graduate in the next few years. In my town of 30,000 in deep red Georgia there's a coding camp for girls run by the town parks and recreation center. I think the younger generation, even in the rural areas, has gotten the message that the future is in tech. Certainly my dad, a semi retired carpet contractor, isn't going to retrain in tech but I think that's the direction that the next generation is going. That being said, I worry there will be a bubble.

    I truly believe that if you want to be hireable in the future you should choose nursing or some other human services field. My college just opened a kiosk where you can see a doctor via a screen for 50 dollars! So doctors will eventually start to lose their jobs. But hands on nursing jobs, or even PA or NP jobs seem like they could flourish in a world with virtual doctors.

    Even if none of this comes to pass, is it not interesting to think about? I think that it is. It encourages me to teach my children to be well rounded and to have skills beyond what they need to be hired for a job because I secretly wonder if anyone will really be working by the time they are adults, and I think they will need something else to do with their time.

  34. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

  35. Greentea

    pomelo / 5678 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I love reading your posts and pretty much agree with everything you say.

    Anyone can learn to code (dodges tomatoes). No one knows what's next, but it is interesting to think about.

  36. FancyGem

    clementine / 769 posts

    @StrawberryBee: I agree! If my children are trying and have intentions of being able to support themselves, then I would let them stay.

  37. AB810

    apricot / 370 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: My mom does not get involved in discipline and totally lets me parent however I feel is right. Our relationship has evolved to more of a peer to peer friendship than parent/child. I don't think it would work if she was overbearing or viewed me in the child role.

  38. Anagram

    eggplant / 11716 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I grew up in rural west Texas. Like, extremely rural. And my friends weren't affluent, they just had parents who scrimped and saved to pay their kids way, but only so their kids could focus on their studies. Which they did, because they are all type A type of people. None of us live in that small town anymore--most of us don't even live in that region. So I do think one part of the job equation is a willingness to move to wherever the work is. My husband is from another country, my own parents were from a different state than where I grew up. It made us feel less rooted, which is probably best economically. I think many people feel tied down to one area and they are sort of afraid of places they don't know--so it's no surprise when they can't find a ton of great jobs in a small town.

    Where I grew up, there was only oil and farming (and the few jobs that serviced those people--like healthcare, education). Oil is very boom or bust, and isn't stable. And farming has become so mechanized, many small farmers lost their businesses. So now there's only oil. And when oil is down, the whole economy is depressed. But people don't move away. It's kind of bizarre.

  39. Anagram

    eggplant / 11716 posts

    The re: the coding question. Even now, there is a hierarchy of coders. You absolutely can't move up the ranks in most large companies without a degree plus several certifications.

    Even in the article linked, it says the blue collar workers will be the ones "just managing the log in page". So yes, anyone can be a coder. If you want to be an entry level coder who makes a lot less money...or if you have a strong work ethic and an entrepreneurial spirit, so you can start your own company.

    At my school, we have a saying that we're training students for jobs that aren't even created yet. Which is probably true. So our focus is on problem solving and learning how to learn. The most important attribute of a successful person is probably adaptability. I have an undergrad degree in English lit. But I currently teach a stop motion animation class, among a few other things. I couldn't have my job without a degree, but I've also had to adapt quite a lot to have my current job.

    My husband is the similar. He has an undergrad in comp sci, and an MBA, but he's had to take a lot of finance related certification tests too, on top of a lot of coding certifications, so he's constantly adapting and evolving.

    I do agree that no one can be assured that the career they start at age 23 will be the career they retire with, like in the old days of lifetime union jobs, or coal jobs, or electric company jobs, etc.

  40. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    @Anagram: I totally agree with the whole willing to move where the work is thing. And definitely for most people I think moving to a more urban area is the best bet. Although I will say, my DH graduated law school in 2011 which was the worst year ever according to the NYT for the law market. He got a job in his hometown of like 9,000. We lived there for several years until our oldest was school aged and then we moved 30 minutes away to the town we live in now and he commutes. He made partner this year after five years. Our friends who felt they could not move out of the city for social/cultural reasons actually have had it harder. Many of them did contract work for a long time, some left law altogether, some have moved from firm to firm, some opened their own firm. I sometimes wonder if for professionals there is some opportunity for people in mid sized towns. That being said, I think in the next 30 years I worry that law will be automated to a great extent (aka online wills).

    @Greentea: golly! I am flattered! I typically think I come off like a conspiracy theorist so thank you!!

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