https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Tue, 21 Apr 2026 12:00:08 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293920 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:22:26 +0000 Mrsbells 293920@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LAGS: I think because he goes to work and gets a break from the baby he doesnt understand how much stress and tension builds up taking care of the baby round the clock </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293875 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:05:20 +0000 Grace 293875@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LAGS: I don't think you were out of line. It's something I would do myself. But, people give family various levels of importance. For some people, it's not just the immediate family that is important. For some, it's the end of the world to deny an aunt or cousin or uncle a chance to visit. Do I understand? No, not really, but for them it's important. I hope that the two of you can find some compromise. Good luck. :) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293798 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 17:11:07 +0000 LAGS 293798@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@artbee: DH seemed almost insulted when I suggested he wasn't putting us first, like it was a low blow or something. Then he went right back to how awful it is to have a family member be in the area for one reason or another and tell them they're not welcome to stop by.</p> <p>I spent part of the day being ok with things were but had a really bad afternoon with little one. Trying to get her to nap I started to feel overwhelmed and just mentally spent again and thought to myself if he felt this way even once there's no way he would want to deal with company.</p> <p>I've tried to talk to him about it again, he's not budging to I've researched marriage and family therapists in our area and am letting him choose which one he wants to see. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293483 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:24:00 +0000 charlotte 293483@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>i don't think you are out of line at all. this part really bothers me: "His response was "you wont be entertaining anyone" and he went back to bed. I was pissed at his lack of support and empathy. As he was leaving for work I explained to him why I was feeling upset and all he had to say was "sorry I burdened you" and left. Anyways, his uncle came and the visit went well... its done and over with."</p> <p>That whole situation makes it really hard for me to want to see his perspective on the family coming over issue because the way he is treating you / power move he is trying to pull is just MEAN! he ignored what you were trying to discuss with him and went back to bed and then left and let the uncle come over anyway despite knowing it stressed you out while you were sleep deprived and trying to care for your child. UGH. </p> <p>I totally see why you think its kind of "funny" at this point that he's still hanging onto that because its like HEY. I like your family, I'm sorry I was tired and not thrilled to play host that day, I want to move on, I acknowledge neither one of us is perfect...andddddd he still wants to dwell on this!! I would be super annoyed and frustrated.</p> <p>there have been things that my husband has thought I am overreacting about in the past and then has tried for himself and said later "I realize now what you meant, and I agree". I am crossing my fingers it will happen in this case for you! hugs. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293457 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:10:04 +0000 winniebee 293457@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>You have already gotten some really good advice - I tend to agree with @mrbee (basically on everything, ha!)</p> <p>I just want to wish you well...and know that every poster here has some dysfunction when it comes to raising and caring for children (whether we post about it or not). I do think that it is critical to get your husband involved in overnight/night routine care in some way. I know how you feel in some ways - my husband is a surgery resident and works crazy hours and many weekends. He's usually up at 5 and home at 7 or later during the week. I'm on an extended maternity leave (right now unpaid) and we're living off of his resident's salary and I made a lot more money than him. I used to feel guilty asking him to help overnight, but, like you, our baby's sleeping got quite poor and I was at my wits end. Finally, he offered and we agreed he would get up with the baby before midnight (if he wakes). He also did an early morning (5 am feeding) the other day. That has really helped. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293434 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:00:45 +0000 ShootingStar 293434@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LAGS: Oh good, I hope it helps! I know my husband can be the type to have to experience something in order to get it. Once I was incredibly sick and in bed for days and he took care of me, cooking, the house, etc all on his own, and after he was like "OMG I'm so happy you're better, I can't do all the stuff you do." I could tell him I do a lot around the house and he would kinda understand, but until he had to do it all himself he didn't really get it. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293405 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:43:40 +0000 LAGS 293405@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Lozza: This is what worries me. We haven't yet been able to get on the same page about these issues and they're obviously going to come up again and again. He's been good as far as cancelling plans with his friends goes and we once passed on a family get together which he was okay with... but for some reason he can't "close his door" to family under any circumstance.</p> <p>@ladyfingers: I agree. I can talk to my MIL and SIL about just about anything, and I know it wouldn't offend them, but DH on the other hand would see it just how you described it.</p> <p>@MrsCB: I think a little day in the life exposure could actually be pretty effective. Maybe I'll suggest doing that overnight instead of him just handling the non-feeding wake ups. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293397 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:40:39 +0000 Honeybee 293397@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Hmmm, just a thought, but can you appeal to your husband's protective side? I know a lot of cops have tendencies to be the protective provider, so it might be easier for him to understand your position on this particular issue if you phrase it in a way that allows him to play that role. I mean, it sounds like you've identified your long-term issues you need to work on, but maybe in this one instance he doesn't understand how vulnerable you really were emotionally and how much you need him to protect you when you're that sleep deprived/stressed. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293378 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:23:47 +0000 ShootingStar 293378@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Personally, I really think your husband is in the wrong. If he was going to be the one to clean up the house and watch the baby and entertain his uncle while he was there, then I think that's maybe ok. But when it's all on you, you have the right to say now is not a convenient time for visitors. I don't see what the big deal is over your husband email his uncle and saying "hey baby was up all night and laggs isn't feeling well, we'll see you next time you're in town/next family holiday/whenever". </p> <p>If it was me, I would ask DH to reserve judgment about how wrong I am until he's in my situation. And then instead of having your husband take over completely with the baby, on the weekend have him get up every single time you do. He can pick the baby up and bring her to you, he can sit there while you help her back to sleep. Let him see how often you do it, how long it takes, and how little sleep you really get and see if he feels like cleaning up the house the next morning. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293374 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:18:44 +0000 ladyfingers 293374@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>You got some really good advice. I think it's important that you're seeing your part, as well -- but he needs to see his. Yes, he has a dangerous job that he needs to be on the ball for. But you take care of your -- and his -- child all day, and it's just as dangerous for your to be sleep deprived. There is a compromise that is not all you or all him. </p> <p>I would not recommend going to your in laws regarding what happened, though. Even if they side with you, can you imagine how hurt and angry he would be knowing that you went behind his back like that? He would see it as trying to turn his family against him. Things like this need to be worked out between the couple (IMO). </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293371 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:15:36 +0000 Lozza 293371@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Sounds like a good plan there :)</p> <p>One thing that kind of solidified when we had LO was that now, more than ever, our immediate family's needs come first. If I want to go out with friends while DH watches LO, but he gets sick, I cancel my plans. If DH's dad wants to visit during a week when I'm going to be really stressed with work deadlines, we tell him to pick another date. If LO has a bad night and we've RSVP'ed to an event the next day, but thinks LO needs to chill and nap well and be on schedule, we cancel our plans. No questions asked, no resentment... we trust each other to not ask for these things unless we really need it, and then we trust each other's judgement. If I call DH up while he's at poker night because the baby won't sleep and I'm overwhelmed, he comes home ASAP. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293357 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:56:13 +0000 LAGS 293357@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Thanks to everyone for weighing in. It sucks admitting to a little dysfunction but it's helped me immensely just being able to vent and know that I'm not a total jerk. Even though it's not DH 'hearing' me or relating, just being heard by someone helps to give me the patience to get to the bottom of this.</p> <p>My husband sounds kind of awful but I'm equally to blame in getting us to this point. I'm stubborn and independent and had to leave a successful career behind when I immigrated to the US. I haven't worked since and its been a tough adjustment watching DH be the sole bread-winner with a not so great salary and seeing him bust his tail working overtime while I stay at home... When I was working I was the bigger earner and its hard to feel my worth sometimes without being a contributor financially anymore. Because of this I've kind of gone into super-wife/mom mode and am wanting to do it all to show my appreciation and basically pull my weight.</p> <p>He's a police officer and because of the nature of his job and the insane hours he works so that I can be at home with LO, I've felt indebted to him and would worry if he were at work worn out like I am. We've agreed that on the awful nights he'll help regardless and he'll help out a little more during his time off. I've also apologized for being a little overbearing in the parenting department and have promised to make it easier for him to be involved and not to swoop in just because its not going as easily as it would be for me.</p> <p>So as you can see there are obviously other issues at play here... me feeling under appreciated and struggling with my new at home role, feeling like he wasn't involved during my pregnancy and doesn't have an interest in researching or planning how we'll parent. On the flip side, he's felt like a schmuck whose opinion or input hasn't been valued. So all the underlying issues are out on the table and we're ready to work a little harder to support and validate each other.</p> <p>Now for the kicker... he's still firmly in the camp that I was in the wrong for even entertaining the idea of cancelling a family visit when they happened to be in the area. I'm at the point where it's kind of funny... it makes absolutely no sense to me?? Its not like I was cutting ties with them, I just wanted to rain-check. We just don't see eye to eye, so with the advice of Mr.Bee in mind, I just apologized and reenforced how important his family is to me. I'm just tired of fighting about it. If I'm not feeling better about this or am worrying we'll have the same disagreement down the road, I'm considering counseling. We fundamentally disagree and things only get heated the more we discuss it. We both need an objective opinion.</p> <p>I'm going to take time for myself more often and leave LO in his care so hopefully it will renew his appreciation for what I deal with all day every day, but like @Thehistoryofus: said, he ditches all routine, schedule and other household duties while doing this so I know he truly won't understand.</p> <p>So if anyone has made it this far... thank you for your advice! I want to respond to everyone because I've honestly taken something away from each poster's input... but I think we can all agree this is long enough, hah! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293307 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:19:56 +0000 Mrs. Champagne 293307@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>First off. you are WAY nice for having DHs uncle over when he isn't even home! I'm close with my DHs family, but if said his uncle was dropping by when I wasn't home I'd be less than pleased!.. and I don't even have a baby!</p> <p>I agree with Mr Bee.. he is giving you some great advice.</p> <p>Good luck! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293287 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:09:02 +0000 Goldilocks1107 293287@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I don't think you were out of line, but the lines of communication definitely got disconnected! I agree with a lot of what Mr. Bee says (and it's always easier to be calm and rational when you aren't in the situation).</p> <p>I'd probably apologize for how things ended and that your intent wasn't to freeze out his family. Then segway into a larger discussion on how you appreciate when he helps with the baby because it gives you a few minutes to yourself when you can unwind. And that despite all the help he gives you, you're still feeling burned out and need more assistance with the day-to-day tasks after he gets home from work and on the weekends. THEN, suggest he takes your LO to visit with his family on an upcoming weekend so they can all have quality time together, and you can get your hair cut or something.</p> <p>Devious? Yes. Misleading about how much he's really helping? Yes. But hey, if it makes him feel more appreciated and understood, and gets you more help around the house, DO IT! :-)</p> <p>I've had to have a similar convo with DH - he tells me to let him know what I need him to do, and when I tell him he'll sometimes give me a joking/sarcastic remark about how I'm so demanding. I finally snapped at him and said "you say I should ask for help, then when I do, you make me feel bad about it." He's a lot better about not being a jerk when I make a legitimate request now! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293192 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:24:05 +0000 T.H.O.U. 293192@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LAGS: Just to let you know, I have tried to have those "spiteful" leave LO with him for a night kinda of things. It doesn't ever really work. On a few nights or business trips where I had to work, I thought, great he will see how hard it is to come in the door from work with a fussy LO and have to get everything unpacked, feed her dinner, and get her in bed. He handles her really well, but he will neglect all other things and focus 100% on her. If I could focus 100% on her it wouldn't be hard if I didn't have to also make a full dinner, and wash diapers/laundry, think about walking the dog, etc). </p> <p>Basically, its easy for them to do it for a night or two but more often than not I have found it doesn't really help them experience what you really are going through. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293164 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:11:39 +0000 mrbee 293164@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Honeybee: so true!! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-293096 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 09:39:23 +0000 Lozza 293096@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: If my MIL was still alive, I think I'd be fine to talk to her about that kind of stuff. DH and I are both really close to his aunt, and I'll call her up just to talk sometimes and I'll sometimes tell her if I'm frustrated with DH and she's fine with it and often helpful. I don't share anything really intimate, but I'm fine saying "I don't think he understands how hard breastfeeding really is" or "I wish HE knew what it was like to never ever be able to sleep in" and the woman-bonding totally kicks in and we commiserate :)<br /> It helps that we both know that we totally agree that DH is a great father and husband, so she knows I'm not picking on him, but am just tired and sometimes need to vent! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292929 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:06:35 +0000 heffalump 292929@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Now that LO is here, she always comes first in our lives over our extended family. Our little family is what is most important, not them anymore. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292883 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:03:05 +0000 Honeybee 292883@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I think oftentimes when a small incident like this, turns into a huge argument it's because the smaller moment is representative of a bigger, unresolved issue. So if your DH has been feeling left out lately, he might see this as an exclusion of his family and therefore of himself rather than just a tired mom asking for some help. Like you get to make the decisions and he doesn't have a part in the discussion, or like you and the baby might be a private unit his family (and he himself) don't get to be a part of. So while you may not be wrong in this particular instance, you might be contributing to a bigger issue that this fight is representative of, if that makes sense. Also if you generally feel unappreciated, you might view this incident as a bigger comment on how much your husband values your work and effort. The real problem is the patterns of behavior this incident is indicative of, not the original much smaller issue issue and until you address the true problems, you'll probably keep repeating the same fight. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292868 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 03:08:08 +0000 Penny Lane 292868@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LAGS: I second what @MamaMoose: said. He works, and you take care of the baby yourself that whole time. It's only fair that he helps when he's home. I'm a SAHM too, and my DH knows he is not going to get away with using the "but I worked all day" card and never help with the baby. </p> <p>Off topic: I am immensely glad my in laws are a 20 hour flight away! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292856 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:17:49 +0000 SugarplumsMom 292856@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I should add that I was close to my ex-MIL in this way and just the emotional support itself was stress-reducing. </p> <p>@LAGS: I just think that if your DH feels wronged, it could help to hear from others that he's being unreasonable. Of course, if you think it'd make he react even more defensively, then it's probably not a good idea. And it would only work if you're already very close to your MIL or SIL and already share this type of info. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292854 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:10:13 +0000 SugarplumsMom 292854@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: I don't know. I actually never done it with my in-laws because we don't have that kind of relationship, but I know some women are really close to theirs. If there's already unfounded resentment going on, I think it's good to get some emotional support from those that know the couple. In this case, I think the only way he'd understand is if he's allowed to experience taking care of the baby himself. It's hard for a mother to see her baby and her husband struggle, so she'll feel bad to doing it. There's a chance her DH won't particularly understand the reason behind it and might turn to a family member and the whole thing can blow up. So I suppose my suggestion is a little bit of an insurance policy. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292853 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 02:07:42 +0000 Cherrybee 292853@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I agree with Mr Bee. His is the voice of wisdom and of reason. </p> <p>I, however, am not reasonable or wise so I'm going to keep my mouth shut, here, other than to say that I gasped with horror reading your post and I don't think you're being out of line at all. </p> <p>My DH's family have a habit of calling to say they're on their way over, giving me 20 minutes to straighten the house. Without fail, this dissolves into a huge row between DH and I, because I get stressed and p'd at him for not helping - and he honestly doesn't understand why it's a big deal. I can imagine him saying "you wont be entertaining anyone" like your DH did. </p> <p>I wonder what the actual problem is - what he's really upset about? It does sound like like you have a lot of talking to do. Sending you hugs. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292846 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 01:53:02 +0000 mrbee 292846@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Crumbs: Oh my goodness, isn't it dangerous to go to an in law and tell them about a situation with your husband?? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292845 Thu, 13 Sep 2012 01:50:52 +0000 SugarplumsMom 292845@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: Wow, Mr Bee. You're really nice!</p> <p>@LAGS: You are NOT AT ALL out of line or inconsiderate of his or his family's feelings. He obviously has no idea what you're going through and IMO, is taking advantage of your generosity with your time and effort in taking care of the baby alone. You mentioned he plays with her, but that's the sweet, easy stuff! </p> <p>If you're close to his Mother or sister, my suggestion is to tell them about what happened and how he's reacting. Any woman (or man that's taken care of a baby) would understand you and would back you up! That way if and when you decide to maybe take a weekend off by visiting your own family, he can't complain to anyone about it.</p> <p>He needs to understand how hard it is and the only way for that to happen is to allow him to experience it on his own. Yes, your baby will cry, yes he will be frustrated and pathetic. But you know what, it'll be good for everyone! </p> <p>Hugs! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292792 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:33:04 +0000 MamaMoose 292792@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I definitely think your husband needs to help more at night. You being a stay at home mom doesn't mean you are solely responsible for child care. Why should you have a 24 hour a day job while he only has to be "on" during business hours. </p> <p>Honestly I think part of the problem is maybe you have been too accommodating in the past and he's been spoiled by it. I would never let my MIL in my delivery room no matter how hard she tried. Explain to your husband that you love his family and you want them around often, but you also need to be able to make the decisions that are best for you and your family and you can't e completely accommodating 100% of the time. Especially if you aren't getting much help from him at home. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292790 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:32:16 +0000 jedeve 292790@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I think that having a baby obviously complicates things, but maybe try and think how you would feel if your aunt was in town and he said "I had a bad night's sleep - can you cancel with her?" Maybe a better situation would have been for them to catch up not at your house, but at a coffee shop or bar or something. </p> <p>Probably one of those things where no one is obviously right or wrong and talking it through without trying to figure out who was right will probably help a lot. Good luck! I'm sorry you had such a cruddy day. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292789 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:30:15 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 292789@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Ah...I don't think you're wrong. His reaction was way too sensitive when it should have been sensitive to you and your child's transitioning phase. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292788 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:28:51 +0000 mrbee 292788@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>"He doesn't offer to help put her down unless I'm an emotional wreck now - this is partly my fault because she resists going down with him and I have a bad habit of stepping in."</p> <p>@LAGS: You raise a great point... it can be tough not to step in! Mrs. Yoyo addressed this in a really great blog post:</p> <p><a href="http://www.hellobee.com/2012/08/08/the-most-dangerous-phrase-in-motherhood/" rel="nofollow">http://www.hellobee.com/2012/08/08/the-most-dangerous-phrase-in-motherhood/</a></p> <p>I don't think it's spiteful at all to want to leave your LO alone with your SO! Maybe just for a few hours would be good? One thing though: you're not using your LO to make a point. It's really really good for her father to get that alone time with her, and strengthen their bond. It's one thing to build a bond while playing... but nothing builds a bond like caring for someone that depends on you! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/am-i-out-of-line-fight-with-dh-re-fussy-baby-and-visitors#post-292786 Wed, 12 Sep 2012 22:15:33 +0000 LAGS 292786@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Penny Lane: Ya from the beginning we've just kind of had an unspoken agreement that because he works and I SAH that I'd cover it. I did really well with it until this 4 month sleep nonsense... its only now become an issue.</p> <p>@mrbee: We'd made progress in talking things through because I'd done just that. Told him in future I would be the one to cancel, but that I value his family and always want them welcome here... maybe I should reiterate this though because at the same time I was telling him it was hurting me that he felt I wasn't welcoming... maybe he'll cool down if I leave me out of it all together while reinforcing that point.</p> <p>Thank you for the male perspective :) He and I obviously have a lot more to talk about! </p>