https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Thu, 21 May 2026 00:07:29 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472650 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:18:33 +0000 jedeve 472650@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@skibobrown: The argument from economists is that you generally tax things you want less of (cigarettes, for example) and have tax breaks for things you want more of (home ownership). Investing is a good thing, so you don't want to tax it too heavily and "discourage" people from doing it. There is truth to that on a large scale, but there are also plenty of other reasons to raise the capital gains tax too! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472580 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:32:12 +0000 skibobrown 472580@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: Thanks for your perspective. I totally get what you mean. I do support increasing capital gains taxes b/c I don't think that people living off of the interest from their investments should be getting a free ride. However, you make a good point that not all capital gains income falls into this category. I just think we need to even things out. Why pay a different tax rate on capital gains then you would on wages? If there is a sound counter-argument (that doesn't involve treating the wealthiest Americans as all-entitled divine "job-creators") I would really be interested to hear it. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472475 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:56:36 +0000 jedeve 472475@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@shopaholic: Not at all! My family is on the east coast and they always go on and on about how cheap things must be because my rent is soooo much cheaper than my sisters'. But food costs much more and we make less! But then I see some posts from people living in NYC where they talk about tipping people who work in your apartment and spending hundreds on a stroller and I just can't even wrap my mind around that! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472451 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:47:52 +0000 shopaholic 472451@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@jedeve: oops! my bad! see, even I admit, I have no idea the real cost of living in other places! *insert foot in mouth* </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472442 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:44:41 +0000 Mrs. Jacks 472442@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@MamaG: I think that's the focus because that's what the president ran and got elected on and because those social programs can be stimulative (see comment up above about unemployment benefits by jdeve). </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472428 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:37:36 +0000 MamaG 472428@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Brownie: Re: personal income vs corporate income, YES! There are different corporate structures for tax purposes S-Corp vs C-Corp. I work for a privately owned company, and this is something we are considering. Changing our tax structure to minimize the tax impacts on the income of the company. The analysis isn't the easiest in the world depending on the size of the company.</p> <p>In general, I'm just disappointed that we can't come to an agreement. I'm also disappointed that so much of the conversation seems to focus on the revenue (tax) side of the equation rather than the expense (spending) side of the equation. In recent days I've seen more media on the spending cuts, but in the early days it seemed skewed to tax as being the only solution. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472319 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:57:02 +0000 brownie 472319@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@jedeve: You can have private investors in a private company. I don't know how that affects capital gains or anything but you can do it. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472278 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:44:04 +0000 jedeve 472278@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@brownie: I could be wrong here, but I think that's the difference between a public and a private company. To do that you'd have to allow public investors which would mean you would lose some control over your company. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472175 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:58:28 +0000 brownie 472175@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: You said that you don't make money for years and the only way to recoup that loss is to sell stock. Then (if they change the laws) you are taxed on that highly. Isn't there a way to take the loss of income or the minimal income and ultimately make it and the high tax a wash. So you aren't really out anything either way?</p> <p>The second question was in general about structuring a small business. So, right now, many small businesses are taxed as the owner's personal income. Even if you are reinvesting that capital into the business if you have positive money at the end of the year it is considered income for yourself. Ultimately, if you are making over 250,000 a year couldn't your restructure to make it such that it isn't considered your income? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472153 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:49:55 +0000 yoursilverlining 472153@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>While I agree that $250k/year in NYC is very different from $250k/year in Idaho; only a very small fraction of people make over $250k a year regardless of where they live and I think it’s utterly ridiculously that we act like we have to continue to cater to the less than 5% of the population who makes that kind of money at the expense of 95%+ of the population who make nowhere near that amount. These tax cuts were suppose to be temporary; the much higher tax rates that the wealthiest Americans have paid for the entire rest of the history of the US hasn’t stopped anyone from trying to be as successful as possible, and they certainly didn’t stop massive growth in our country. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472138 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:42:46 +0000 mrbee 472138@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@brownie: Not sure I understand what you mean? Sorry! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472133 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:41:46 +0000 mrbee 472133@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@jedeve: But I am putting in sweat labor into my businesses though... this isn't just a story of labor versus investment.</p> <p>That's what frustrates me: a lot of the coverage of the fiscal cliff lumps lump together entrepreneurs with people receiving passive "investment income." But I am not investing cash into a business, and sitting back passively and getting checks in the mail. I am working really hard for no pay for years at a time. That's what America is supposed to be all about.</p> <p>Anyway like I said, I support a higher capital gains tax rate. It's just really depressing to read the debate around the topic. I know a number of entrepreneurs who support a higher capital gains tax rate, but have gotten really demotivated by the discussion as well.</p> <p>I have had a lifelong love affair with America, and I have been heartbroken by these discussions with my fellow Americans. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472125 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:34:24 +0000 brownie 472125@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@mrbee: Shouldn't there be a way to ultimately make that even out if that is truly what is happening? Also, wouldn't it be advantages for small businesses to ultimately change how they are structured if they are making the money to be taxed more (as individuals)? Or are those not available? That to me seems like the fair thing. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472062 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 11:01:07 +0000 jedeve 472062@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@septemberlove: Really we want people to spend money in a down economy. Treating capital gains preferentially is actually not good for the economy. Some fun facts:</p> <p>- "Mark Zandi of Moody’s Economy.com studied the federal budget and found that $1 used to give preferential tax treatment [for capital gains] would generate $.36 in increased GDP. While $1 used to improve infrastructure or extend unemployment benefits would generate $1.50 in additional GDP"</p> <p>- A study in Montana found the state based capital gains tax did not lead to improved economic growth.</p> <p>@mrbee: For sure, the stereotype of capital gains beneficiaries is wealthy investors like Mitt Romney. But I don't think that's a comment on work ethic, since a lower cap gains tax tends to value investment over labor. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-472016 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:35:35 +0000 Adira 472016@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@septemberlove: Isn't it just taxes on returns? So if last year I invested $100 and got $10 back, and this year I'll invest $100 and only get $5 back, $100 is still being invested either way and so the business being invested in is still getting the $100 either way, it's just the returns are being taxed higher.</p> <p>But, I'm not as familiar with investments and how it all works together, so someone please correct me if I'm mistaken! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471804 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 07:41:23 +0000 lomom 471804@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@skibobrown: without the risk taken by the investor, the business owner wouldn't be able to have their business because businesses need capital. You don't invest your money for free, why should investors? The lower rates are just an additional enticement to get dollars invested. </p> <p>Raising the taxes on investment income takes that money away from the investor at a time when the economy needs all the investment dollars possible. In an above comment, someone said that last year they make have made $10 and this year $5 but that didn't mean they wouldn't invest the $5 this year, despite being taxed at a higher rate... But what about the businesses on the other side that would've gotten $10 of investment but now only are getting $5? I don't think now is the time to reduce investment in our economy. That's how the economy grows and jobs are created, which I think everyone agrees more jobs are a good thing! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471762 Mon, 31 Dec 2012 05:42:45 +0000 Bookish 471762@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Yeah, this whole situation is aggravating as heck. I read that I will pay 3000$ more in taxes next year if we go over, which, since we are having LO in July, is money we could really use. I hope they pull their heads out of their butts and get something passed. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471649 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:31:44 +0000 Adira 471649@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@BlueWolverine: I agree with you 100%. We also invest our money, and even if it's taxed more, we're still making more by investing than not investing at all. I highly doubt anyone would decide to stop investing just because they're taxed more, because honestly, that wouldn't make any sense to do - you're not going to get nearly the returns by just letting your money sit in the bank.</p> <p>@ladyfingers: Thanks again for the clarification! I definitely agree with you - letting tax cuts expire just makes sense for our economy right now, especially on the top 2% (those making $250,000+). </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471646 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:26:39 +0000 mrbee 471646@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I believe that the capital gains tax rate should go up, HOWEVER.</p> <p>It pains me to read comments about capitals gains as if it's all investment income. I'm an entrepreneur and often work for years without any income at all. If I then sell some shares in a company I've started, it's sometimes my only income for many years.</p> <p>I find a lot of comments about capital gains can be pretty dismissive to a whole class of business owners and entrepreneurs. It's interesting because I support capital gains being taxed at a rate equal to other income. However, the numerous comments about all this across the web have really impacted my love affair with America and the work ethic that I believe has helped make this country great. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471636 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 23:15:08 +0000 BlueWolverine 471636@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I think it's unrealistic to say people will stop investing because tax rates go up. Let's see...should I make $5 on this investment, or $0 by not investing at all? Before tax rates went up, I would have made $10, but now I'll go with $0 because I'm upset about new tax rates? I invest, and that won't change under higher rates. </p> <p>Aside from that, I think it's an interesting judgment that our tax code makes to basically value investment income more than labor income for each individual. We tax capital gains at a small rate compared to income gained from actual work. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471478 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:29:44 +0000 Mrs. Blue 471478@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Both DH and I work for the federal government, and they are already talking about how to do furloughs to make up for the budget cut. The latest plan that's been thrown out would work out to DH and I (combined) losing $2000 a month for three months . . . probably starting in March or April when we have two babies arriving. Super. </p> <p>That said, I still have hope that even if we go over the fiscal cliff that they will actually come to a resolution before our jobs/paychecks are hit. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471456 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:20:45 +0000 skibobrown 471456@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@septemberlove: I'm not clear on why the business owner should be taxed at a higher rate than the investor. To me this just sounds like a pyramid scheme. The rich get richer... (And just to be clear, I do have investment income, as does my family. I don't mind paying some taxes on my investments in the name of keeping our country fiscally solvent.) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471370 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:30:42 +0000 jedeve 471370@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@shopaholic: I live in Montana! Actually our cost of living is only very slightly below the national average, (like one percent) but our average income is about 80% of the national average. Just a fun fact!</p> <p>@skibobrown: I agree. Capital gains taxes are very unfair. Yes, you should encourage investment, but they basically penalizes people who work. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471356 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:19:04 +0000 lomom 471356@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@skibobrown: if there weren't wealthy investors, there wouldn't be economic growth. Businesses need cash from their shareholders in order to get started, grow, etc. Higher taxes on investments would reduce the capital available to businesses. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471353 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:17:23 +0000 ladyfingers 471353@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Jacks: They know. They don't care. IMHO. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471315 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:27:43 +0000 Mrs. Jacks 471315@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@brownie: I hope it works out for you. I think sometimes our elected officials forget that there are real people behind the numbers. I have called and written some of them to remind them. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471305 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:12:06 +0000 brownie 471305@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>This one directly affects us. One my husband works for the federal government and could be furloughed. Second any amount that we lose, will be less that we have and things that will have to be dropped. We may have to drop child care to half days and then I won't be as affective at my job. But we can't afford it all. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471300 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:05:56 +0000 skibobrown 471300@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I would like to see this resolved, but only with some increased revenue (i.e. taxes for the wealthiest Americans). I would also like to see tax loopholes closed for those who earn most of their money off of investments. It still doesn't seem fair to me that a small business owner making 300k per year should pay far more in taxes than some wealthy investor like Mitt Romney. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471257 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:13:18 +0000 lomom 471257@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I think spending cuts need to be made. All these entitlements programs are far from sustainable. I would never say its an easy decision to make, what to cut, what not to cut... But cuts need to be made in addition to tax increases. However, the economy is still shaky and I think now is bad timing for tax increases on all but the extremely wealthy ($1 million plus per year, regardless of where you live, that's a pretty penny). Additionally, the tax hikes on investment income are completely ludicrous at this economic juncture. We need to encourage investment to continue on the path to economic recovery... Not yank money out of the hands of investors... And AMT, oh dear. That needs to be fixed ASAP! DH and I will more than likely fall into AMT if it's not patched. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/fiscal-cliff-or-curb-if-you-prefer#post-471250 Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:58:53 +0000 ladyfingers 471250@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@shopaholic The debate's occurred in the past on the board, about whether it's right or wrong to tax people in that bracket. I don't think $250,000 is rich, but<br /> 1. the tax cuts would expire on the amount you make over $250,000, so if you make $251,000, you're taxed extra on $1 and<br /> 2. The proposal has always been to let tax cuts expire, which means that portion of that bracket would revert to the levels at which it was previously taxed. Higher tax brackets are being taxed at historically low levels, which I think is completely inappropriate in our current financial climate. The Bush tax cuts are the only time in HISTORY that taxes were cut during a war. And now we're paying for it -- and it's going to get worse, and everybody is going to feel it, if something drastic isn't done.</p> <p>This isn't a "rich vs. poor" warfare (though there are many that make it out to be so), but rather something that needs to be done to find income to keep our country from becoming completely irrelevant. </p>