https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Sat, 18 Jul 2026 15:58:00 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-533247 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 06:36:25 +0000 honeybear 533247@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@ladyfingers: @Mrs. Pen: The test would exempt most churches. The problem is that organizations like Catholic Charities, Catholic schools, and Catholic hospitals do not meet that test. (They fail #2 in ladyfingers' list.) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-533237 Tue, 29 Jan 2013 05:20:37 +0000 jedeve 533237@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>The weird thing to me is:</p> <p>1. The Catholic Church isn't opposed to the pill because its an abortifacient (though many Catholics have that problem with it.) it's opposed because it is contraception. Which is why condoms aren't ok but taking the pill for health reasons like endometriosis is. </p> <p>2. The vast majority of other Protestant denominations do not believe contraception, including the pill, is a sin. A few small sects might, but the vast majority don't. </p> <p>3. If a company opposes every abortifacient, I hope they are also fighting against prescription strength aleve. </p> <p>4. The Catholic Church believes health care is a human right and has supported health care reform. </p> <p>My point is this is largely an invented issue, much more about politics than religion. As a Catholic, I had some issue with the original mandate, but was thoroughly disappointed in Dolan's response to the compromise. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-533109 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 23:14:50 +0000 Mrs. Yoyo 533109@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Adding Hobby Lobby to my boycott list: Check. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-533087 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:32:40 +0000 stargal 533087@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@TurtleDoves: couldn't of said it better :) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532646 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:51:33 +0000 Zuzu2and11 532646@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Bookworm: Plan B is free at hospitals in the event of non-consensual sexual activity. </p> <p>Every employer in the US offering identical health benefits packages is not a right, and is not mandated by the ACA. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532608 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:29:25 +0000 Bookish 532608@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Zuzu2and11: What about having to take Plan B makes the person automatically have been involved in voluntary, high risk activity? It isn't always consensual sex that results in the taking of Plan B. It isn't about personal responsibility, it's about working for a company that is refusing to give it's female employees the same rights as employees across the street at company x,y,z. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532595 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:21:19 +0000 Zuzu2and11 532595@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@yoursilverlining: You can get Plan B for free at Planned Parenthood and most health clinics, but it is an emergency contraceptive anyway so it shouldn't be a regular expense. Choosing to take part in a voluntary, high risk activity and forcing others to subsidize it seems like a pretty dramatic abdication of personal responsibility. </p> <p>The fundamental rights defined in the Constitution are not contingent on legislation. The government has no power to institute laws that contradict these protections (in this case the First Amendment). </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532509 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:33:16 +0000 yoursilverlining 532509@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: Most people are forced to support things they are morally against. Do any of your tax dollars go to support things/actions/organizations you are morally against? Mine certainly do; but I still have to pay my taxes, in full, because that's that law. </p> <p>Not complying with a law is not what freedom of religion means; and being held to comply with laws is not persecution of any kind. Sorry.</p> <p>@Zuzu2and11: Plan B is actually not less than $10 a month. It's about $50 to purchase over the counter; which is a fair amount of money to a lot of people. If you (generic you, not you-you) refuse to comply with parts of laws/regulations because you are morally opposed to parts of them and create a financial burden for someone else; then yes, I think that's imposing your beliefs on someone else. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that governments do not define rights; governments do define our legal rights - rights to marry, property rights among many, many other rights are legally defined by the government. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532505 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:29:12 +0000 daniellemybelle 532505@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>The thing that bothers me the most is that Hobby Lobby is calling this "civil disobedience." Please just look up instances of civil disobedience in the United States. Civil disobedience takes place when there is no other way to advocate for your group - a group that typically has no voice and usually is being persecuted. I would hardly call a large corporation like Hobby Lobby "persecuted," and they have SO many other ways to use their millions to advocate for their beliefs - ways that are not to the detriment of their many employees. Heck, at least Chick-Fil-A supported their beliefs legally! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532483 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:19:07 +0000 plantains 532483@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: I couldn't help myself, sorry:)</p> <p>Seriously though, I think it s such a slippery slope and I don't think we should get to pick and choose which laws we want to abide by based our individual perception of morality. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532482 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:15:32 +0000 allison 532482@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Wow, very heated! I agree with the anti-Hobby Lobby camp, for the record. I boycot Chick-fil-a for the same reasons.</p> <p>This is why I should just move to Canada. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532454 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:00:28 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 532454@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Zuzu2and11: K</p> <p>good chat, ladies! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532453 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:59:34 +0000 Zuzu2and11 532453@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@turtledoves: That is why the law is being challenged in court by dozens of entities. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532451 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:57:58 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 532451@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Zuzu2and11: it is the employee's right that his/her employer FOLLOW the law of the country they live in (is what I meant but may not have clearly relayed). </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532447 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:55:12 +0000 Zuzu2and11 532447@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@turtledoves: I understand what the law says. The simple fact that the Federal government imposes a law does not make it moral, rational, or constitutional. The government does not define rights. The Constitution does that.</p> <p>I think the claim that it is a fundamental right of all people to force others to pay for their birth control is a stretch. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532433 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:46:52 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 532433@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Zuzu2and11: when the government says a person is entitled to it for free, and a corporation refuses to give it for free, they are not giving the people their American rights.<br /> So, yes they can buy it from anywhere but, why should they have to? Why can they not receive the same rights as all other employees?<br /> Is it because they work for a church? Nope! They work for Hobby Lobby. Who mind you, is not a legal "religious organization" and thus is not exempt from this law. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532425 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:43:59 +0000 Zuzu2and11 532425@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Jacks: The Catholic Church never argued that a seven month old fetus is not a person. The legal defense of a Catholic Hospital (not the Catholic Church) argued that Colorado state law does not recognize a fetus as a person. This is a statement of fact. They made no argument as to whether a fetus actually is a person</p> <p>@turtledoves @yoursilverlining: How does refusal to pay for something one finds to be morally abhorrent constitute an imposition upon others? The employees still have access to birth control. Hobby Lobby preventing them from purchasing birth control by refusing to pay for something that anyone can buy for less than $10 per month. </p> <p>It really is sad that people fail to recognize that they are compromising the primacy of their own conscience rights by supporting this type of infringement on First Amendment liberties. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532420 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:40:05 +0000 ladyfingers 532420@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: Churches should be exempt, I believe. The test is:</p> <p>1. The goal of your organization is to spread your faith<br /> 2. You primarily serve people of your faith<br /> 3. You primarily employ people of your faith<br /> 4. You have federal non-profit status</p> <p>ETA I think this lays it out very well:</p> <p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/02/02/the-truth-about-contraception-obamacare-and-the-church/" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/02/02/the-truth-about-contraception-obamacare-and-the-church/</a> </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532417 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:38:24 +0000 Mrs. Pen 532417@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@ladyfingers: what is the test? are churches exempt? because I heard many aren't but I don't really know. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines/page/2#post-532411 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:36:13 +0000 ladyfingers 532411@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Here's what I think is interesting: This law is not even intended to target religious organizations. It's intended to WIDEN access to health care to the American public. There is even a specific exemption in the law for religious organizations! It gives them an out by which they can stay true to their faith -- IF they are truly a religious organization and meet what I believe is a very fair four-pronged test. But because this test is perceived as too narrow by not allowing just about anybody to claim themselves as a religious organization -- whether they actively inculcate the tenets of their faith or merely sell crappy picture frames and art supplies and maybe some Jesus stickers -- people are claiming that the government is actually PERSECUTING CORPORATIONS for their beliefs.</p> <p>I mean... I just... I can't. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532370 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:17:28 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 532370@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@ladyfingers: oh goodness. ..."Just because your CEO happens to believe that a pill that prevents implantation is somehow an abortifacient... doesn't mean you're a "religious organization." " &lt;&lt;&lt;THANK YOU.<br /> I'm not 100% sure people understand the difference between private business, public, religious organization, and/or one that is simply headed by a religious person.<br /> Mind you as a devote Muslim, I don't think this is a religious issue. You will find many Christians' opinions who vary widely on this matter and you will find many Muslims' opinions who vary widely on this matter. I personally don't believe it will ever be black and white, Even people of the same faiths fight each other on this! So, someone needed to stand up (Obama) and make a law that just ends all question. </p> <p>@Mrs.Pen: you know I love you, right? But religious freedom means you get to practice your own religion with your self. You (not you, Hobby Lobby) can't impose it on others...even if you own the company and these people are your little minions. People have rights. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532369 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:16:18 +0000 Mrs. Pen 532369@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@plantains: that's not exactly what I was getting at. I was talking religious freedom. Obviously I don't think that the law for employment equality applies to religious freedom. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532367 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:15:10 +0000 Mrs. Pen 532367@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@ladyfingers: in my mind, that doesn't make it right.</p> <p>@yoursilverlining: they are being forced to support something they are morally against. Just try to imagine if you were in their position. They're not imposing their beliefs- they're trying to stand up for them. And right now they are being "persecuted" for that. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532365 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:14:12 +0000 plantains 532365@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: I actually find the idea that everyone's personal beliefs trump everything to be a very starnge idea. Imagine if stores who didn't believe in racial mixing were still allowed to have signs in teh windows saying 'no negroes' because that was what they personally believed. You see where I'm going with this right? :) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532361 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:11:59 +0000 tororojo 532361@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrsbells: Good point...if they will pay for the bc pill but not morning after pill, I guess that's kind of a weird distinction. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532360 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:11:35 +0000 yoursilverlining 532360@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: Religious freedom doesn’t give you the freedom to impose your religious beliefs on others to their detriment in violation of laws or the constitution. It gives you the freedom to practice your own religion without fear of prosecution because you practice that religion. Religious freedom also means freedom from religion (one particular or all) as we have a separation between church and state. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532359 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:11:32 +0000 prettylizy 532359@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Man, this is something as a Canadian that would never in a million years be an issue......... I don't even know where to begin reacting to something like this. Pro-choice or Pro-life, a law is a law. Instead of spending all this money paying fines and defending themselves, wouldn't they be better off funding their interest group and obeying the law in the mean time?</p> <p>I also think it's incredibly strange that major companies like this have religious platforms. I'm pretty sure Hobby Lobby is a craft store, what business is it of theirs what their employees medical needs are? If a teen girl contracted an STD from pre-marital sex, should she be denied antibiotics through her health benefits because that is a sin? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532357 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:10:53 +0000 Maysprout 532357@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: How much power should an employer have over an employee? Say your secretary decided to live with her SO without getting married, should you be able to say well we normally provide healthcare but i don't want to support a life of sin? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532356 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:10:19 +0000 CupQuakeWalk 532356@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Hobby Lobby is a business in America where offering this pill is a federal law; it needs to follow the laws. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines#post-532350 Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:09:12 +0000 T.H.O.U. 532350@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Pen: this is what makes me mad too. </p>