https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Sun, 05 Apr 2026 09:02:16 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413408 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 20:54:14 +0000 MoonMoon 2413408@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>One of the most frustrating things to me is that the prosecution laid out one version of the crime to the media, and a whole different one in the trial. Like, they planted the seeds in people's minds and then backed off because they couldn't prove them in court. Like she was tied up, tortured, raped, stabbed repeatedly over several hours in that cluttered room and there wasn't a drop of blood found anywhere? Avery was actively bleeding all over her car but nowhere in the house or the garage? She was shot in the garage but no hint of blood? Is this the Twilight Zone?</p> <p>Kratz himself told the reporter who was going to write about his sexting allegations (I'm paraphrasing) "once you put it out there, you can never make people un-hear it, you're as good as guilty." </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413331 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 19:33:50 +0000 theotherstark 2413331@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: they actually found DNA evidence of Avery's (sweat DNA, not blood) under the hood of Halbach's car.</p> <p>Most of the evidence, transcripts, etc are online; they are fascinating! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413250 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:30:31 +0000 cascademom 2413250@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: From living there and in the Midwest during the Teresa Halbach murder and subsequent trials, the press conferences were so jarring and polarizing to the state as a whole. The documentarians had one bar scene where they talked with people about their thoughts. That was how everyone felt around that time. It was like, well there's DNA evidence proving he did it, so it must be true." Kratz worked towards the sympathies of the public a lot. They really painted the Averies as awful people. Sure, they don't have the best criminal background, but Steven didn't rape in 1985. The unfortunate murder and investigation got Manitowoc off of the bad police rap by saying "look, he did this time, we're not bad, we're not wrong." It was so hard to question the DNA evidence at the time. I remember not questioning it and other pieces of evidence. Looking at it now, it's insane they were convicted. It could be a "Thin Blue Line" case if Avery is freed but did it. We don't know. I feel the same way about Adnan Syed too. I'm really not sure if he did or didn't do it, but the trials were so poorly run, it makes it look like they did. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413245 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:27:41 +0000 BadgerMom 2413245@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: I've read a lot of the articles and Reddit. The only extra evidence that was not presented in the documentary is even more circumstantial than the evidence they presented. After watching/reading everything I could, I think there is a good chance Avery did it, but I can't go any further than that and that's obviously not certain enough to send someone away for life. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413239 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:22:53 +0000 Greentea 2413239@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@TemperanceBrennan: I just don't understand, based on the doc, how anyone could possibly find him guilty. However, I am not sure where else to look for information. I mean, is there additional evidence from prosecution? I do remember seeing a dateline on the story long ago, and they clearly framed the story as having no reasonable doubt that he was guilty. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413238 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 18:22:50 +0000 cascademom 2413238@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@BadgerMom: The coverage really did them both in. I still remember those news reports. The reports made it sound so certain that they were guilty no matter what. Now seeing the documentary with the uphill battle the defense faced, I look at it differently. The crime lab technician bothered me too where she contaminated a sample and also had orders to have the evidence look one way not the truth. Add that on top of Len Kachnicsky basically working for the prosecution by trying to lead Brendon into a guilty plea. I hated that the judges ruled against them with this obvious evidence. I just can't get over that. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413204 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:57:11 +0000 TemperanceBrennan 2413204@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@BadgerMom: I'm in Wisconsin too, but I move here in '09 so I wasn't aware of the trial while it was happening. It is SO INTERESTING to talk to people who remember the trial in the news and have now watched MAM. So many different opinions! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413200 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:53:35 +0000 TemperanceBrennan 2413200@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs D: My husband and I had the same discussion! </p> <p>I was on a jury that had an expert witness testify about substances in the blood (It was a DUI-type case). We were not allowed to take notes and the prosecutor was terrible and did more to confuse the witness and jury, but regardless, SO MUCH has to do with the pool of jurors. </p> <p>You are allowed to bring your own experiences into the deliberation room, so if you were on the jury, you could explain that absence of a chemical is not certain proof and might be able to convince the other juror to dismiss that piece of evidence. On the other hand, you could have someone that would absolutely trust the FBI agent and that person may be more convincing than you. In the case of the jury I was on, they let a doctor be part of the jury and most everyone agreed with his opinion on the witness testimony. </p> <p>If I was on the jury and they only presented the FBI agent, I would probably believe him and think that the blood was not planted. </p> <p>But because the defense presented the expert chemist and I am familiar with the concept that absence of a chemical in a test can't prove it isn't there, I think I would have been more unsure and would likely dismissed that piece of evidence against Avery. </p> <p>If it was presented that the vial's box seal was tampered with and there was a needle hole in the top, I would absolutely dismiss that piece of evidence from consideration. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413179 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:36:28 +0000 BadgerMom 2413179@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: Yes! I think the Dassey trail was in Manitowoc County Courthouse with a Manitowoc jury. </p> <p>And I totally agree with you, the prosecution buttoned up their case with their press conferences long before the trial. I don't even know if having it in Madison or Milwaukee would have helped, I think the news coverage already proved to the entire state of WI that these two were guilty. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413176 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:34:32 +0000 Greentea 2413176@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@BadgerMom: maybe the Dassey was in Manitowoc then... I remember his mom running out of the courthouse upset (on the doc) and she was definitely in Manitowoc. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413173 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:31:48 +0000 BadgerMom 2413173@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@sera_87: @cascademom: @Greentea: I think the Avery trial was held at the Calumet County court house with a Manitowoc jury? That's what I remember anyway, which probably isn't saying much lol.</p> <p>I think before watching the documentary I would have been much more inclined to believe the FBI testimony regarding the test, as I am generally a trusting person and if an "expert" testifies to something I tend to believe them. Now that I've watched this, I am/will be highly skeptical of "expert" testimony. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413160 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:22:35 +0000 Greentea 2413160@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@cascademom: But they were at the Manitowoc court house (Budweiser signs in the background) and I thought something was mentioned along the lines of you have been found guilty by your peers of Manitowoc county. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2413143 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:06:33 +0000 antigone 2413143@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I thought the absence of EDTA in the blood samples was damning, but it was the whole picture presented that made me believe Avery is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412847 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 14:16:41 +0000 cascademom 2412847@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@sera_87: Whoops, forgot that. Either way, many counties over might have had an impact on the trial. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412838 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 14:13:36 +0000 LuLu Mom 2412838@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>If I knew (and I'm not sure how much they knew) that the vial had a needle hole in it + the box was clearly tampered with and I had seen the pictures of the taped up box with the broken seal, I would not for a second believe that the blood was not planted. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412809 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 13:56:47 +0000 sera_87 2412809@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@cascademom: I believe only dasseys trial was held in calumet. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412753 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 13:28:17 +0000 cascademom 2412753@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: It was held in the county over in Calumet. Problem is that the prosecution presented their case to the media long before the trial started. Dassey and Avery never stood a chance. The trials should have been held in Green Bay or Madison. It was so unnerving to see Colburn escort Avery and Dassey from the courthouse a number of times. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412744 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 13:25:11 +0000 yellowbird 2412744@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I definitely think we are getting a better picture of what actually went on than the jury was able to. I think media swayed them heavily and that SA never had his presumption of innocence. From what they have showed of media coverage, I probably would've assumed he was guilty too. It's sad. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412739 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 13:22:18 +0000 Greentea 2412739@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Watching that doc, it is unclear to me how this person could be found guilty. I have to believe that the people of MC were heavily influenced by media at the time. It should have at least been held in a different county. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412636 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 12:25:04 +0000 MoonMoon 2412636@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I wish the defense could have broken the science down a bit better for the jury (if that's even possible?) to make it clear that a test not picking it up is NOT the same as there not being any in the vial. </p> <p>Plus, now that one juror has come out and mentioned that most of them were leaning toward not guilty but felt personally threatened into voting guilty (in addition to what the dismissed juror said in the movie), I think the deck was stacked against the defense no matter what :sad: </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412585 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:50:32 +0000 twodoghouse 2412585@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>In the context of MaM, no. However, prior to seeing this documentary I might have been more likely to believe the FBI agent. I think the testimony of the other chemist made a lot of sense and seems legit to me. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412554 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:33:37 +0000 Mrs Spoon 2412554@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>No because as a juror you have to evaluate all the evidence. So this one statement shouldn't preclude reasonable doubt even if you truly believe the statement is true. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412514 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:00:40 +0000 Mrs. Turtle 2412514@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs D: Yeah, exactly. I loved what the actual scientist said afterwards. "I'm an analytical chemist. We aren't in the business of guessing the outcome of tests" or something like that. So perfect. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412510 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:56:27 +0000 Mrs D 2412510@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs. Turtle: 100% agree. The FBI agent lost me completely when he said all 6 spots could not have come from the test tube when he only tested 3. What the What?!!?! How can you assert an opinion over something you did not test?!?!! All confidence in him died at that point. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412507 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:54:33 +0000 Mrs. Turtle 2412507@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I thought the testimony of the analytical chemist was far more convincing than the FBI employee. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412506 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:53:33 +0000 Mrs D 2412506@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>So - I say no as well.</p> <p>DH was arguing that he thought the average person would be extremely heavily swayed by an FBI expert saying "it did not come from the test tube" - to the point that he thinks they lost their case based on that testimony along (but probably earned a nice appeal option).</p> <p>I was arguing...I know he said "the blood did not come from the test tube" but what I HEARD was "my testing did not identify the EDTA chemical" which are two totally different statements.</p> <p>He then started arguing that since my work (previous jobs) has been to understand things like absence of a chemical is not certain proof....it means (as the other expert said) that either 1) it was not there or 2) the test simply did not detect it.</p> <p>It became an hour long debate over whether an average juror - with out my sampling/testing/negative confirmation experience - would process that or whether they would be blinded by the "Expert FBI agent saying so...". </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412502 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:49:32 +0000 sera_87 2412502@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>In this instance, no. The way they drummed up that 'test' is crazy fishy. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412439 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:11:53 +0000 Reese 2412439@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Ditto @lawbee11: </p> <p>In this specific case/circumstance, no. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412424 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:03:35 +0000 Mrs D 2412424@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@lawbee11: DH and I had such a heated debate about this. I dont want to share my thoughts yet until I have seen more votes.... :) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/making-a-murdererif-you-were-a-juror-some-spoilers#post-2412409 Thu, 07 Jan 2016 09:56:42 +0000 lawbee11 2412409@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Given the circumstances in MaM, no. </p>