https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Mon, 13 Apr 2026 00:14:06 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750391 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:38:48 +0000 DesertDreams88 2750391@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>In agreement that a college student who's paying thousands of dollars to travel across the world should know about the countries they are going to. Any basic Google search of NK should convince a reader not to go.</p> <p>Otto's death is no more tragic then the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands??) Of native Koreans imprisoned and tortured and killed in NKs prison camps.</p> <p>NK is not a place to go for tourism or gawking..... or barely any reason. Too dangerous. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750390 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:38:16 +0000 Mrs. Lemon-Lime 2750390@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@lamariniere: wow, that's a warning for you! What struck me was how many people that were at Otto's trial that looked like foreigners or at least not Korean. Are the people that get to stay and move about freely there complicit in this charade of justice?</p> <p>@snowjelez: Gov. Richardson sounded so deflated by what happened. Diplomacy only gets us so far.</p> <p>I wonder if the spotlight on NK right now makes it rougher on the other Americans detained there. I sure hope not. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750355 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:38:18 +0000 Adira 2750355@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@oldsoulmama: How do YOU know what Otto knew with regards to the dangers of NK?</p> <p>I'm not saying he DIDN'T know. I'm just saying WE shouldn't just assume that he did. There's no way for us to know what he did or didn't know and therefore I won't judge his choice in this matter or assume he accepted all the real risks associated with that choice. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750353 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:35:08 +0000 oldsoulmama 2750353@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: He didn’t know how risky it would be to travel to NK? Seriously? I’m pretty sure Otto Warmbier knew full well what he was getting into when he signed up with a travel agency that advertised this trip as “budget travel to destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from” (their words, not mine). Clever marketing for curious college students that like to live on the edge. </p> <p>At 20, traveling to NK would be an exciting experience because it has the kind of forbidden mystique that college students love experiencing, including me, when I was that age. He may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, OR he really was goofing around and got caught for something silly, and NK decided to make an example out of him because hey, why not terrorize an American and broadcast his sentencing to the world to exert dominance? What more do you expect from a regime that is run by a man with mental issues worse than his father? Either way, the end result was tragic. Could it have been avoidable? Sure, he could’ve just not gone to NK at all, but really, how many Americans get killed in NK? Do you know how many Western college students travel to dangerous parts of the world and aren’t killed? A LOT. </p> <p>I'm on the fence about allowing my kids to travel to dangerous places. On the one hand I don't want them to live in a bubble, and I want them to see and experience what goes on outside of this country. My parents let me, but I feel like the world is much more hostile to Americans today than when I went. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750304 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:24:15 +0000 2littlepumpkins 2750304@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>My brother is his age (younger, actually) and I guarantee he knows that North Korea is a crazy dangerous place to go. He went to be adventurous according to his father. I also am not saying he deserved it, but saying he didn't know the risks seems a stretch. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750234 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:04:53 +0000 Littlebit7 2750234@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@pinkcupcake: yeah the tour company's motto/tag line was something like "we plan trips your parents wouldn't approve of". Um. Wtf. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier/page/2#post-2750233 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 11:04:45 +0000 MrsSCB 2750233@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: Yes, and that seems so hard for the family -- they will never have closure. Not that you can really get "closure" when you lose a family member, but I think not knowing what really happened to them would make it even harder :-( </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750213 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:39:50 +0000 pinkcupcake 2750213@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: i think traveling to another country - especially one with a regime like NK - seems even more obviously risky than bungee jumping. I mean, at least bungee jumping companies are regulated by laws and regulations. But, it seems like you and i have completely differing opinions here and may need to agree to disagree. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750198 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:22:58 +0000 Adira 2750198@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@pinkcupcake: What I'm saying, is that he may not have been aware of the risks. Traveling to another country doesn't have the obvious risks that bungee jumping does. Yes, you and I know that traveling to NK is inherently dangerous, but just because WE know it doesn't mean everyone does. To assume that he understood the risks and then was willing to accept them, kind of implies that he got what he deserved. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750195 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:18:43 +0000 pinkcupcake 2750195@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: But time and time again, it's been shown that is what COULD happen in NK. How is it victim blaming to say that? I mean, you go bungee jumping, you know there's a risk the line could snap and you could die. It's a risk, right? Isn't that the definition of risk? Victim blaming would be saying he deserved it. No one is saying that. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750182 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 10:06:18 +0000 pinkcupcake 2750182@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: I would hope that the tour company he utilized would have more than adequately warned him against the risks associated with NK. </p> <p>Edited - just saw that the tour company may not have adequately warned him. Terrible, just terrible. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750169 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:57:40 +0000 Madison43 2750169@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs D: I guess we can't know for sure, but I'd agree that NK sent him home to die, so they didn't have to deal with the fallout if he died there. There's also a part of me that thinks NK did it to screw with Trump - they've been testing the waters since he took office to see how far they can push him and I think this is probably another example of that. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750167 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:57:15 +0000 looch 2750167@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@snowjewelz: I kind of agree with their decision to forgo the autopsy. At this point, maybe it's more comforting to not know the truth. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750154 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:46:59 +0000 snowjewelz 2750154@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: Seriously, and which is so sad for the family, is that the truth will never be known :crying: </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750151 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:45:39 +0000 looch 2750151@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@snowjewelz: Oh, that is interesting, thank you.</p> <p>@MrsSCB: we will probably never know! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750147 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:43:27 +0000 MrsSCB 2750147@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: My guess is that he wasn't "useful" to them anymore. As depressing as that sounds, they can't get much from a dying or dead prisoner :-( and they may not have wanted to have him actually die on their hands. This way they could say, "He got sick and fell into a coma, we tried to help him for a year, but it didn't work, so here you go." I don't actually believe the botulism story line they gave, but this way they never had to admit, "Oops, we killed him/let him die." </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750143 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:41:19 +0000 snowjewelz 2750143@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: This shed a teeny bit of light...</p> <p><a href="http://www.npr.org/2017/06/20/533698481/former-new-mexico-governor-discusses-his-role-in-otto-warmbier-negotiations" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/2017/06/20/533698481/former-new-mexico-governor-discusses-his-role-in-otto-warmbier-negotiations</a> </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750138 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:38:24 +0000 Mrs D 2750138@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: I do not know, but my own assumption from what I have seen/read is that his end was imminent and I think they didnt want to deal with the hassle of him dying in NK. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750127 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:32:03 +0000 looch 2750127@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I am generally anti-travel bans because I tend to be of the mind that once you make something forbidden, it increases the appeal to people.</p> <p>What I am not clear on is what caused NK to send Otto home, does anyone know what prompted it? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750117 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:24:02 +0000 MrsSCB 2750117@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I would definitely not be happy if my child wanted to travel to NK. Once they're legally adults, I don't know that I could physically stop it from happening...but I wouldn't help fund it at least.</p> <p>Related to the Otto Warmbier story, I read this account from his roommate in NK. I'm pretty skeptical of the alleged poster stealing, and reading this made me even more skeptical. Such a sad situation all around. </p> <p><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/06/15/otto-warmbiers-north-korea-roommate-speaks-out/?utm_term=.b479b0a26d59" rel="nofollow">https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/06/15/otto-warmbiers-north-korea-roommate-speaks-out/?utm_term=.b479b0a26d59</a> </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750109 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:09:06 +0000 Adira 2750109@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@snowjewelz: That article definitely makes it sound like the touring company doesn't sufficiently explain the risks to people at all. Otto probably had no clue what he was getting into. :(</p> <p>I agree that we probably should ban traveling there. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750105 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:06:03 +0000 snowjewelz 2750105@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: This makes me feel like the touring group he went with wasn't all that responsible. I agree with you. My sister already went with the straightest head possible and the most maturing understanding possible, and if something happened to her, it would've been tragic. I think if things were really that bad then we should just ban traveling there period. </p> <p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/21/otto-wambier-fate-north-korea-tour-company-pyongyang" rel="nofollow">https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/21/otto-wambier-fate-north-korea-tour-company-pyongyang</a> </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750102 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:04:13 +0000 Adira 2750102@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@snowjewelz: Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to imply that ALL college-aged people are uninformed about NK, just that we can't assume that they all ARE informed.</p> <p>I feel like if Otto really was aware of the dangers and completely understood all the rules and risks, he never would've torn down a banner (flyer?). If he even DID do it. Otto's roommate on the trip has spoken out and indicated he didn't think Otto would've done what he was accused of doing.</p> <p>Making comments like "you go with the understanding that it's dangerous, crazy shit can happen, and you can die. if you choose to willingly go, then you assume the risks associated with it" and " I imagine that getting tortured while in North Korea is something that someone who travels there should expect to happen" feels like victim blaming to me. It's basically saying that you should expect to be tortured and maybe killed if you go to NK, and since Otto went there, he should've known that's what was going to happen to him. I can't get behind that line of thinking. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750099 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:52:56 +0000 snowjewelz 2750099@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: @pinkcupcake: @agold: </p> <p>Ugggh I wrote a novel and HB logged me out :meh: </p> <p>I wanted to share my perspective since my sister took a trip there after her junior year. She had been following NK since she was in high school; and in college she was a poli-sci major with a huge passion for social justice, humanitarian rights, etc and she had always followed NK closely. So the opportunity came up to apply into this program that takes students there, she took it. You couldn't just pay money to go; you had to apply and be accepted plus it cost a ton. My family felt like she wanted to go for the right reasons, and we felt like this program's been doing it for a long time and has built good rapport. Of course we were nervous; but this was her dream. I know she was briefed extensively on the do's and don'ts. In her own words, she felt her trip went very smoothly. Of course she followed all the rules, etc.</p> <p>I 100% agree that if they want to make something happen, something will happen and there is certainly a HUGE risk in going. With that said, I also don't think that it's ALL bad; there is a side of NK that really wants foreigners to go there and get a "good impression". They really love showing off it seems. There are a ton of people that go in &amp; out safely. Is this a destination for an ordinary folk? Absolutely not. And with the current political climate, I'm not sure if my sister would go again. So many factors! </p> <p>It's just hard to really say because we'll never know what really happened. I would only hope that the touring group at least made sure everyone understood how serious a trip into NK is and I would hope that they also briefed all the participants extensively... </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750087 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:41:51 +0000 Mrs D 2750087@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I'm so saddened by this. The whole situation.</p> <p>From what I have seen did steal the poster, I've seen a video and it "looked" like him. I am sad that such a silly thing cost him his life. However, I do think its not unreasonable to expect that he would have been detained and "made an example of" by NK the minute they caught him committing a "crime".</p> <p>I'm disgusted by NK's actions. I'm disgusted by the way some media outlets here in the US are blaming his "whiteness" for his experience in NK. And I am just so sad for his parents.</p> <p>I will encourage LO's to travel - within reason. I would never allow a trip to NK along with other countries where the risk is just too high. As for terrorism in general - I admit my next trip to Europe has me more anxious than I have ever been to travel to Europe. However, I also feel that not doing so lets the terrorist win. So if this is the world my kids will live in I will teach them to be safe, street smart, aware of their surroundings but continue to live their lives. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750084 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:38:22 +0000 lamariniere 2750084@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@yoursilverlining: I agree. Traveling to a place like NK, Syria, Yemen...these are all places outside of the bounds of normal travel regardless of the motivation. I would hope anyone going to a place like NK would inform themselves beforehand and be aware of the risks and dangers. Just reading the State Department travel advisory is pretty chilling. <a href="https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html" rel="nofollow">https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/north-korea-travel-warning.html</a> </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750078 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:29:55 +0000 Adira 2750078@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@pinkcupcake: And what I'm saying is that the assumption that Otto totally understood the risks and willingly accepted them is unfair. He was 21. He joined a tourist group that went to NK. To assume that he completely understood how dangerous that was is insane to me. I certainly had no clue how dangerous North Korea was when I was 21. I didn't know how dangerous North Korea was when I was 30! It's only recently that I've learned more about North Korea and know I would never go there. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750075 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:25:15 +0000 pinkcupcake 2750075@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Modern Daisy: @Adira: it's an assumption of risk. You assume the risks involved with going into NK. I say this as a Korean-American - i mean, it's just a place you don't go. But if you do go, you go with the understanding that it's dangerous, crazy shit can happen, and you can die. if you choose to willingly go, then you assume the risks associated with it. I don't see how that's victim blaming. Victim blaming would be saying he deserved it. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that when you go to a crazy country like NK, you take a huge risk. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750051 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:56:02 +0000 Modern Daisy 2750051@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Adira: I totally agree. And also at that age the warnings are just words to you that don't have much meaning yet. I don't agree at all that he "should have known". That is victim-blaming imo and disrespectful to his family. Why are we even allowed to travel there?? </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/otto-warmbier#post-2750034 Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:28:07 +0000 yoursilverlining 2750034@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I don’t know what sort of rules I would put in place on LO future travels – but to me, traveling to North Korea is not at all in the same ballpark at all as traveling for experiences (or any other reason) in college. Considering traveling to North Korea just for pleasure or whatever is frankly insane. It’s no secret that things like this happen there on a too-regular basis. It’s just not worth the real, and really serious risks of traveling there IMO. I actually thought it was already illegal to travel from the US to NK - - which makes the recently renewed restrictions on personal tourist travel to Cuba even more laughable and obviously petty than they already were; but that’s another topic.</p> <p>That all said, you’re more much more likely to be shot by another American in America than killed anywhere else, so I try to put things in perspective. But to me, NK is outside of what I’d consider normal. </p>