https://boards.hellobee.com/ Pregnancy, Baby and Parenting blog, by Hellobee en Fri, 08 May 2026 16:42:07 +0000 https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2385104 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:07:58 +0000 Bao 2385104@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LovelyPlum: that makes sense! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384614 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:51:12 +0000 Mrs. Sketchbook 2384614@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I see a lot of people talking about student loans and how that makes the difference between "being" upper class and "feeling" upper class. I can understand that myself (husband has 90k of student loan debt that, let's be honest, he will never pay off!), but I'm not sure it works to think that way, because many/ possibly most? people who go to college have debt. And most middle class jobs require a college degree. At this point, educational debt is the price of admission for being a part of the middle class. I would almost be like saying you'd be middle class if it weren't for your car payment....without considering that your car gets you to your middle class job, and thus is necessary (although you know, some people are still driving their high school cars, and other people have upgraded, so there is some variation I will admit). My husband certainly couldn't have paid for a professional degree out of pocket but what middle class job could he have gotten without one? And I think this is probably true for most people. So many of my students are returning to college because their old career dried up. I hope that makes sense. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384581 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:26:32 +0000 Modern Daisy 2384581@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>We are upper, but 100% income earners so we get to keep very little of our pay checks. After taxes, ss, 401k, medical I think our take home is much more comparable to middle. Not that I'm saying we are middle post tax, but our taxes are so much higher than average that our salaries definitely sound more impressive than they actually are. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384494 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:37:33 +0000 Greentea 2384494@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LovelyPlum: Yes, imo the word "class," is kind of a misnomer. The way I define class has more to do with values vs. income. Even talking dollars, a person can make $25K and if they have a 4 year degree, they are middle class, imo, when discussing class as in the dollar sense. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384489 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:31:50 +0000 LovelyPlum 2384489@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: right. The words and meanings are not interchangeable. Moreover, as I wrote above, the meanings aren't entirely clear and always changing, so it's hard to know what anyone is really talking about. I feel like class analysis is much easier and more useful in a historical context than to analyze current economic conditions. I would rather analyze workplace mobility and the presence/absence of stable, salaried positions and savings/debts than arbitrary markers like class. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384482 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:28:23 +0000 LovelyPlum 2384482@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>One thought on class from the resident history nerd: </p> <p>Remember that the idea of class is a societal construct. There's no such thing as class, until we give it meaning. So, what society's idea of class is can change from country to country, region to region, decade to decade. Generally, the working class came to be seen as such around the 1850s with Karl Marx, and from there, people assigned names to pre-existing and evolving social dynamics. I think this goes to show that it matters what group people feel they're in. Yes, it rubs me the wrong way when people who are relatively well off (meaning, they get by, little debt, some savings, retirement accounts, etc) say they're lower class and insecure, when relative to the working poor who live paycheck to paycheck, they're not. On the other hand, though, just because you have and meet your financial goals is not a bad thing! You can still identify with a middle class values system, which is why I think the upper middle class comes to be a term favored by many. And that's ok, too :) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384470 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:23:10 +0000 looch 2384470@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@LovelyPlum: Thank you! I feel like we're using the words interchangeably, and maybe we should be, but I feel like I distinguish them and that's what makes this discussion kind of difficult to have.</p> <p>There's really not a lot of class mobility in the United States. It's really hard to become part of the upper class, it's not just your income. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384467 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:22:12 +0000 LovelyPlum 2384467@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Bao: to me, that's "working class." In historical terms, I tend to think of "the lower classes" as "not upper class." But again, those terms are based more on inherited wealth vs. working for wealth. In that sense, both the working and the middle class are "lower classes." I would say upper and lower working class and upper and lower middle class then distinguishes income. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384458 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:16:16 +0000 LovelyPlum 2384458@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@looch: re: class vs. income, I think you're right. It was also my understanding that middle vs. working class was the difference between salaried vs. hourly workers. Meaning that hourly workers get little to no PTO and have less security than a salaried position. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking/page/2#post-2384347 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:04:36 +0000 catlady 2384347@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@ShootingStar: I could have written this post (except I got an old Camry). We live in the Boston area as well. I actually often wonder how "normal middle class" people make it work here. We are definitely in the "upper" range and still feel pinched sometimes. I don't think these class definitions can be broadly applied to "Americans" without regard to cost of living. Someone making the low end of "middle class" here would not even be able to afford basic rent/mortgage plus daycare. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384327 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:49:44 +0000 Bao 2384327@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@dagret: That's what I assumed! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384324 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:11 +0000 Bao 2384324@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>Looks like we are lower class. I'm fine with that. We have a house, two cars (mine has had a lot of repairs lately), healthy kids, heat, pets, and we are never hungry. We pay our own way for everything 100% with my parents helping in desperate times. No assistance of any sort. For example, my car needed a transmission a few months ago, 3k that we didn't have right then and there so we borrowed the money, but have it almost paid off already. Our health insurance alone is $400 a month. </p> <p>Never actually thought of us as lower class though...but I suppose living paycheck to paycheck makes a whole lot of sense as to why we are classified as that. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384322 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:46:55 +0000 Ms.Badger 2384322@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs.KMM: Again, I assume, but as a single man. These figures are for a family of 3. </p> <p>We're on the same side, people actually need less money than they think they do to be middle class, upper class etc. I know that you can live quite well on less than what these "predictors" suggest </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384317 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:44:37 +0000 Mrs.KMM 2384317@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ms.Badger: Yes - I'm sure they would. But my brother makes about half of the lower/middle class "cutoff" not the middle/upper class one. That was my point. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384310 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:40:22 +0000 Mrs.KMM 2384310@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ajsmommy: That makes sense. I misunderstood your comment.</p> <p>I'll admit - this is somewhat of a sensitive subject for me. It is such a big topic in the media right now (minimum wage, middle class, etc) with so many people claiming that what I watch my brother do every day is practically impossible. So I'll admit that I can be quick to jump to the defense of his ability to be successful, happy, and thriving. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384308 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:39:53 +0000 Ms.Badger 2384308@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs.KMM: All I meant is that most single men making 1/2 of the upper class income limit would feel upper class, especially someone like your brother who makes less and feels very stable<br /> @gingerbebe: I agree with so much of this. My grandparents worked very blue collar jobs, had a very small home, and were living the american dream. If someone had only what they had now, they would not feel as solidly middle class. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384303 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:38:04 +0000 ShootingStar 2384303@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I feel like growing up, I was middle class. When I was really little my parents struggled with daycare costs, but as time went on they made more and more money. We never wanted for food or drove beat up cars. I grew in the kind of town where most kids got their parents' beat up toyota when they were in HS. When I was 17 I got my Dad's 8 year old Ford Taurus. So yes, we were all "wealthy" enough to be driving, but no one was driving BMWs and Mercedes to school.</p> <p>As an adult, I am well aware that I make "upper class" money. I am very lucky for the life that I lead, but I also work hard and am highly educated in a technical field. We don't want for food or clothes or have to worry about whether we can afford steak for dinner. But with daycare costs and housing prices in the Boston area, we do need to be mindful with how we spend. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384289 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:26:32 +0000 Ajsmommy 2384289@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs.KMM: my post was more of a "I think more people are better off than they think they are" comment. Not a "you can't have savings/retirement/trips unless you are upper class" comment. Kudos to your bro. </p> <p>ETA: specifically more geared to pp's who said they were upper but didn't feel it (does this make any sense?? LOL) </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384281 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:19:31 +0000 gingerbebe 2384281@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I grew up very low class and my husband grew up lower-middle to middle class for most of his childhood. The calculator says we are upper class. I would agree with the assessment based on the fact that we feel relatively comfortable on a day to day basis, but I feel like a lot of it is because we plan a ton. We have large student loan payments, do not qualify for most tax credits (i.e. Roth IRAs, student loan interest deductions, tax advantaged savings programs like Coverdells, etc), and we live in a high COL state. We pay a lot in state and federal taxes. But we also budget carefully, don't take on any other debt, and minimize monthly subscription services to counterbalance that. </p> <p>I guess I just don't understand why the media and politicians make such a fuss about this? I feel like this weird American obsession with the middle class is at best an outdated idea and more likely a total myth. From what I can tell, at some brief point in our history a few privileged people could work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with an hour lunch, and still be able to raise a family on 1 income and retire at 55 and for some reason THIS became the ideal that we strived for in terms of defining a middle class. Honestly, I would bet MOST people even in the "good old days" didn't live that reality and instead worked their tails off and lived frugally in ways most people couldn't imagine doing these days. </p> <p>Frankly, even good middle class lifestyles back then would look lower class poor today. My DH's grandparents were one of those few privileged people who lived that middle class "dream." But what it looked like in reality were trip lake vacations, a modest 1,000 sq. foot home they live in to this day, siblings sharing tiny bedrooms, attending the closest state college while living at home, backyard BBQ rehearsal dinners, cake and punch wedding receptions, growing and canning your own vegetables, and Denny's to eat out. </p> <p>I don't know where I'm going with this, except I guess I feel like this middle-class narrative can be more harmful than its worth and articles like this just make people feel like they are being screwed or missing out or resentful towards people who are "rich" - when in reality the much of the "upper class" isn't, as many have pointed out, living the high life per se. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384280 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:17:52 +0000 Mrs.KMM 2384280@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ms.Badger: $12 an hour is no where near $60K a year. My brother made about $23,000 (pre-tax) last year. I don't think anyone would ever consider that upper class. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384262 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:04:52 +0000 2littlepumpkins 2384262@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ajsmommy: thanks for that post. According to income we are solidly middle class but I honestly feel like we have a decent amount especially compared to people our age (mid-late 20s) or who graduated around the same time when the economy was really bad. Reading on here that people are calculated to be upper and still feel middle makes me wonder where we really are/should be! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384258 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:02:23 +0000 Ms.Badger 2384258@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Mrs.KMM: That's a (presumably) single man with no kids. I assume that a single man making $60000/yr would feel upper class. </p> <p>When we were in grad school on stipends my DH and I made less than $60,000/year combined in Orange County, CA and were able to save and have most of what we wanted, but largish expenses like a $350 plane tickets home meant I had to plan. When the car broke down it meant dipping into our savings, we did not have $500 extra cash laying around. We only had 1 car between the two of us. That to me feels middle class.</p> <p>I just wanted to add about my family growing up, why we were middle class, not lower. We had nice things, I was a competitive gymnast with $200/mth training fees plus competitions, outfits, etc, my 2 siblings and I went to private, Lutheran school. But my parents had to make real decisions about where their money went, what was most important, and budget like crazy to make it all work. I think they earned somewhere in the 75,000-90,000 combined arena and are GOOD with their money. They live well, upper class-ish now and they will have a very comfortable retirement, bless them for planning and not pinning it on me and my siblings.</p> <p>Given all this, I am immensely more comfortable financially than my parents not making that much more above the middle-upper boundary combined. I know that it is due to the sacrifices my parents made in the name of raising us and giving us good educations and the natural ability to have a career in an intellectually demanding field, and luck finding awesome jobs </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384208 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:33:23 +0000 pinkb 2384208@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>We are in the lower end of middle on 2 incomes. It's sad that it is considered middle. We live in an expensive area. We didn't qualify for any help when I checked. And that is for formula or any state provided help with our daughter after early steps for delayed speech. We can't afford real vacations away from home and we don't have enough left over to save. It's sucks. But I do realize we have everything we need and not everyone can say that at the end of the day. @Ajsmommy: agree </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384192 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:23:19 +0000 Freckles 2384192@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ms.Badger: That's a good way of putting it. DH and i know that we are very comfortable, relatively speaking. The fact that i could take a year mat leave and not make changes to our lifestyle definitely showed me how lucky i am.</p> <p>@Ajsmommy: Agree, a lot of people think that way. i have friends who think it's crazy to even think that a household income of $300-500k is upper middle class, and i think they are delusional! </p> <p>My parents started off as low income but were quickly able to move up to upper middle. I don't really feel that income mobility is as easy as it used to be. A lot of it also has to do with good decisions and timing, not just hard work and education. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384189 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:20:55 +0000 kick641 2384189@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ms.Badger: We're middle income now, but I grew up low income and I really felt like I'd made it when I realized DH and I never really fought about money. We certainly budget, but there's not a ton of anxiety there so it isn't a sore topic. It feels really good, actually. My parents fought about it a lot. I get it as an adult but it sucked as a kid. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384183 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:17:32 +0000 Mrs.KMM 2384183@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ajsmommy: My brother makes ~$12 an hour working on ski patrol at a resort in Utah. He is most definitely not upper class. But he is still able to have savings, take trips, get nice meat from the butcher shop and bought a house earlier this year. You can definitely have those things without being upper class if you are smart with your money. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384174 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:10:01 +0000 MrsSCB 2384174@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Greentea: Agreed. I grew up "upper class," but not that far removed from lower. My parents always stressed how lucky we were -- literally, that a lot of what you have is luck, based on your circumstances at birth, which obviously no one can control. My great-grandfather was a janitor, and with a little luck and a lot of help, his son (my grandfather) went to college. That changed everything. I do think it's easy to forget, while you're just living your daily life, how good you have it compared to a lot of others. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384161 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:06:06 +0000 Adira 2384161@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>I found this explanation of middle class kind of useful:</p> <p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/" rel="nofollow">http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/</a></p> <p>I guess there are different ways to define the middle class. The link provided just uses income, but there's also wealth, consumption, aspiration, and demographics. And even with using income, there are different ranges. Some consider anyone not in the lower 20% or upper 20% of income to be middle class - I definitely fall into that category! </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384152 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:56:06 +0000 Adira 2384152@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ajsmommy: Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that was always the case, which is why people are confused about where the middle class ends and the upper class begins. Wage increases haven't increased at the same rate as inflation, unfortunately. </p> https://boards.hellobee.com/topic/us-middle-class-shrinking#post-2384147 Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:53:20 +0000 Greentea 2384147@https://boards.hellobee.com/ <p>@Ms.Badger: thank you!</p> <p>HB gives me the perception that some on here have NO IDEA how privileged they are. I, as is often the case, have a unique situation. I actually grew up upper middle class. My family new it, and it was a luxury that we always attributed to luck and privilege (or for my very religious parent- God's grace and my family was hugely generous.) My husband has worked longer and harder than almost anyone I know, but through luck and a huge lack of privilege, doesn't make very much. I consider myself middle class because of my education.</p> <p>Sometimes these posts rub me the wrong way because unless you are or have endured living on a lower income, you have no idea. People in poverty aren't less smart, or less awesome, or less creative, or less hardworking, well maybe some are, but the same goes for the upper! </p>