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Gorilla in OH killed

  1. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    I don't judge the mother but this made me consider an anti zoo stance, which before I had not considered. Between this and the baby bison conflab (plus new SeaWorld policy) it seems like people feel entitled to have access to animals. Clearly the gorilla was taking care of the child (as best as he knew how to do), which made the whole thing that much more gut wrenching.

  2. Mrs. Sketchbook

    GOLD / nectarine / 2884 posts

    Just wanted to add I don't think the kid had an entitlement issue, but the crowds around the exhibit and just the idea of zoos in general... People don't respect wildlife nearly enough. Perhaps only a few people should be allowed in the exhibition area at a time or something.

  3. HLK208

    pineapple / 12234 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: I feel exactly the same way! And I have never been anti-zoos. I know that some zoos do great things for animals who otherwise would have died in the wild but...just the fact that they're here for human entertainment? It's sad...and definitely not the way that it's meant to be.

    Not to say that I won't ever take my kids to the zoo again (and I don't judge others)!

  4. Modern Daisy

    grapefruit / 4187 posts

    While it does infuriate me when parents don't properly supervise their children, especially once I became a parent myself, I have a hard time agreeing the parents are to blame here. I'm sure the enclosure really did keep people out successfully for 38 years, but if at any point a 4 year old can get in unassisted.. That's a huge failure on the zoo's end. When I go to a zoo I assume and expect the enclosures to be safe for families, for better or worse that includes curious athletic children. Not that you would use that as an excuse to let a 4 year old run around unsupervised, but even if you admittedly weren't doing the best parenting job in the world that day you could still be pretty pissed at the zoo if your child was able to climb into the gorilla pad.

  5. Anagram

    eggplant / 11716 posts

    @ScarletBegonia: you may be right. When I was very young, the Baby-Jessica-in-the-well happened in my hometown, and her (teen) mother was one of my older sister's friends, and I don't remember this kind of backlash against the parents. Although I was super young, I sort of remember the opposite--that the whole country was hoping and praying for a rescue, not focused on whose fault it was that she was there in the first place.

  6. snowjewelz

    wonderful kiwi / 23653 posts

    It's just so sad I don't have all the facts, so overall I just feel bad for everyone involved. I definitely do not blame the zoo in a way that people are doing (like, how can you shoot that poor innocent gorilla). From the one thing that I read, it greatly pains the zoo, the caretakers of those animals to have to kill it but at that point, I agree that there is no other option. (I guess they weren't worried about the gorilla falling onto kid...?)

  7. BSB

    hostess / wonderful apple seed / 16729 posts

    I think this was all an unfortunate (and sad) series of events and I don't judge the mother. Accidents happen and no parent is perfect. I have never been to this Cincinnati zoo but I was at the Seattle zoo yesterday and our Gorilla enclosure was behind glass. There was no way a child would get in there unless the door was left open.

    I do believe zookeepers (as most people who work around animals) truly love being around these animals and they had to make a very difficult decision to kill the animal.

    I didn't see the whole video until recently but the first few seconds I did see made it seem like the Gorilla was protecting the child and wasn't doing much harm. I think it was CNN that released a longer video where the Gorilla was dragging the kid under water. That was terrifying to watch. I'm not a Gorilla expert but he did look threatened and I'm sure that made his actions very unpredictable.

    There are so many details that unknown to us and I just can't judge. I think everyone involved is beating themselves up (the parents and zoo).

    I did find this post on facebook from a fellow zookeeper and I agree with what they had to say. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1203379103029809&set=a.136952966339100.18704.100000731932790&type=3&theater

  8. oldsoulmama

    coffee bean / 27 posts

    I don’t blame the zoo or the mother. This is a terrible accident and the moons were lined up just right. There may be more info here that I missed, but from all that I read this appears to be a case of: Hellion child with superior gross motor skills + Momentarily distracted mother tending to 3 other kids presumably alone + Wall that is scalable by the best of climbers = Disaster.

    I think it’s ridiculous to pin the blame on the zoo, and they absolutely made the right, albeit risky, decision. Should we insist that all zoos make 10 ft high glass walls with barbed wire? There’s a delicate balance between making things safe for reasonable people and making things fully idiot-proof. I think if the zoo were prudent, they should enact a “no more than 2 kids for each adult entering” rule. This obviously is very unfair to single parents so not a win-win by any means.

    It appears the mother was not being negligent just based on eyewitness accounts. But if all 4 kids in her care were small, she possibly misjudged how much supervision she could effectively provide in a crowded public place. I honestly feel bad for her. I can’t imagine the sheer terror she must’ve felt at that moment. It’s easy to judge if your child hasn’t reached the toddler stages, but even the most conscientious parent will witness their child entering a dangerous situation and in the blink of an eye it can end badly. A friend of mine lost her 3 year old daughter on a crowded beach for 45 min. Thankfully they found her unharmed, but if she had been hurt or killed, should we put barriers along all beaches, require children under the age of 5 to be leashed, or throw her in jail?

    As a side note, I wonder if this kid had a problem with depth perception? I mean, how many 3-4 year olds look down a 15 ft cliff and decide it’s ok to jump? I don’t know, maybe some kids, but mine hesitate jumping down just 2-3 ft. He may be equipped with extreme sports genes!

  9. Foodnerd81

    wonderful cherry / 21504 posts

    @oldsoulmama: to your depth perception comment- couldn't he have gotten to the ledge and lost his balance, not fallen? I don't think my almost 3 yo would jump but anyone could lose their balance for a second.

  10. oldsoulmama

    coffee bean / 27 posts

    @Foodnerd81: Yes very possible, but it sounded like he was determined to make it down there from what this witness said:

    O’Connor, who spoke to PEOPLE, said she overheard the boy telling his mother he wanted to go play with the gorilla, and the mother told him he couldn’t. “People around me were talking about how big the gorilla was, calling him King Kong, and I heard him say ‘I wanna go!’ and the mom was like, ‘No, you’re not!'” she says. “I don’t think in her wildest imagination she thought he would actually go back and do that.”

  11. Foodnerd81

    wonderful cherry / 21504 posts

    @oldsoulmama: I don't know what the enclosure looked like, but I was thinking more that he climbed up, planning to try to get in, saw how far of a jump it was but fell before he could climb back down? But yeah, he sounds like he was definitely trying.

  12. JenGirl

    clementine / 756 posts

    I'm a member of the Cinci zoo and go all the time. It's a wonderful zoo and I'll continue to go. As my son grows up, I'll keep a close eye on him because this is a horrible example of how accidents can happen.

    Should the mom have been keeping a closer eye on her kid? Obviously. But I don't think she should be prosecuted. I actually know a mom that was there when it happened and she said it all happened really fast while the kid's mom was taking pictures. I think the terror of watching your kid in that situation and knowing a gorilla was killed because of it is punishment enough (though it bugs me that she's expressed no remorse that they had to kill the gorilla).

    At the same time, I'll be pissed if she tries to sue the zoo, because it's not like it's easy for a kid to get into this enclosure. There's a fence, a bunch of bushes, a short wall and a 15 ft drop to a large moat. The enclosures are meant to keep the animals in, and keep people from accidentally falling in, this kid very purposefully tried to get in. There are exhibits in zoos everywhere that a kid could get into if they're a good climber and not being properly supervised. And the zoo has clearly suffered a huge loss already.

    So I really hope everyone just says this was a terrible tragedy and walks away without litigation.

    @ksnow: Someone in the crowd was holding the mom back. Also several other bystanders who tried to go in after the kid. Which was absolutely the right thing. The gorillas were much more likely to act aggressively towards an adult.

  13. JenGirl

    clementine / 756 posts

    @Foodnerd81: The lady that I know that was there said the kid didn't "fall". He was purposefully trying to get into the enclosure. And trying to get in quickly before anyone could stop him. There's a small stone wall just before the drop and he was up and over it without any hesitation.

  14. LulaBee

    pear / 1837 posts

    @Mrs. Sketchbook: Agreed. I'm anti-zoo... I 100% do not think it's okay for us to cage animals for our entertainment. Maybe this gorilla is better off now that it doesn't have to live in a zoo.... A sad situation all around, and I'm thankful the kid is okay.

  15. oldsoulmama

    coffee bean / 27 posts

    @JenGirl: I'm certain someone will sue the zoo (not necessarily the mother) or force them to change something (barrier or process).

  16. petitenoisette

    pear / 1521 posts

    @ScarletBegonia: Agree with you 1000%
    @ksnow: I think the situation could have ended much worse if the mother had entered the enclosure as well.

  17. Mrs. Chocolate

    blogger / nectarine / 2600 posts

    This was a tragedy all around and no amount of shaming or blaming will bring back Hambre either.

    I think for most mothers this is a real and raw snippet of any day for any of us. Children are unpredictable and parents are humans who cant watch their children every single moment of their lives. We have all experienced a less than proud and humbling moment as parents but the difference is most of us have them in private, small scale scenarios not under the public microscope of the Internet.

    What I find most telling of this story is how much we blame mothers. That children fall solely under their mother's provisions and any actions and help father's provide are more option or even heroic at times but mothers are expected to basically do everything without any praise or recognition and if they make a mistake receive all the blame when fathers can largely skate free from such responsibility.

  18. JenGirl

    clementine / 756 posts

    @oldsoulmama: Oh, I'd bet the zoo is already making plans to change the enclosure. Not sure how, but they've closed the exhibit for the time being.

  19. Truth Bombs

    grapefruit / 4321 posts

    @Mrs. Chocolate: My understanding is the father was not at the zoo with his family, hence the blame on just the mother as she was the only parent there. At the time of my original post I did not know that, and I specifically said "the parents" should have been properly supervising their child.

  20. Adira

    wonderful pomelo / 30692 posts

    @ScarletBegonia: 100% agree with you. I don't blame anyone and I agree 100% with the zoo's decision to kill the gorilla to save the child, as much as it sucks.

  21. Mrs. Chocolate

    blogger / nectarine / 2600 posts

    @Truth Bombs: I have read that the father was present but honestly its impossible to say what is true and what isnt now with a million stories circling this topic at this point.

    My comment wasnt aimed at any one particular person here or on the larger Internet as a whole but just the general tone and wordage used as a whole during this stories coverage. I just feel the immediate response always is "Where is the mother?" whenever there is a story with a child involved. The mother could be away, not present, or not even in the child's life when the incident happened and thats still the number one question asked. Even if facts get corrected there are still a million people who dont read articles and just want to bandwagon jump on the blame train it seems.

    But thank you for saying "parents" in your original posting. Its a nice change to read.

  22. JenGirl

    clementine / 756 posts

    @Mrs. Chocolate: I completely agree that it shouldn't be assumed that the mother is the sole one responsible for a child. In this case, the mother was the only adult there with the child, father was not present.

  23. caterw

    persimmon / 1445 posts

    @pastemoo: I love your point about how often does your little kid say they are going to do crazy stuff? My 2 year old often tells me she is going to get in the car and drive to DC without me, but I'm not really concerned about that happening lol.
    Also, the parents could be the most watchful parents in the world and still lose a kid for long enough that he could get in somewhere he shouldn't be. My daughter has ripped her little hand out of my hand, run away, and got into an elevator alone where she managed to shut the door! She was stopped only because she pushed the button to open the elevator door instead of the one to do down. I was holding her hand until she ripped away and I thought she went in the bathroom instead of the elevator. She could have easily escaped completely.

    This is a sucky situation, but the experts that were on-site and responsible for handling the situation clearly felt that the gorilla needed to be put down in order to save the child and minimize risk to him. They would not undertake that decision lightly- if only for the fact that the gorilla is a significant asset to the zoo and would be very expensive to replace (plus I would imagine people that work in zoos like animals and would not tend to kill them for no reason). Even if the gorilla wasn't acting aggressively, there is no way to prevent the gorilla hurting a kid by mistake because they don't understand that human young are more delicate than gorilla young. I don't even really think it was the zoo's fault that the enclosure wasn't safe- it was just one of those crazy things that happens and has a sad ending.

  24. Maysprout

    grapefruit / 4800 posts

    @Mrs. Chocolate: there's plenty of sexist things in the world but I don't think this is one of those things. The moms voice is the only one on the video calling to her son and that witnesses talk about being upset. I think most people fairly assume that if a father was there he would also show upsetness at the situation.

    Also I think there's times where we need to assess our assumptions and not just say meh, stuff happens. A lot of people have said that they assume the barriers would be 4 year old proof. No guidelines for barriers like that exist so it's a bit of a dangerous assumption. I never realized that was a common assumption and realizing that I can see how this was more likely to happen

  25. MrsRcCar

    grapefruit / 4712 posts

    This is my home zoo. I go often and will continue to go. The Cincinnati zoo has instrumental programs to saving endangered species. It's extremely upsetting to see that the gorilla had to be shot because of the incident. This has been the first incident since the habit opened in the 70's for more then 30 years nothing has gone wrong. It wasn't a decision they took lightly. The decision was 100% what they should have done given the risk to the child. I know it's not popular opinion but I think the mother should be charged with child negligent or endangerment. I am not saying accidents don't happen however several eye witnesses have said she didn't notice for several minutes (or until the commotion started) that her son was missing. Also it was appalling to me that she showed no remorse for the gorilla.

    It's an incredibly sad story for everyone involved. I hope the zoo does reopen the gorilla habit soon and that there aren't 15 foot walls of glass encasing them. The habits created by the Cincinnati zoo are designed for the animals benefit and well being first and for most and then designed with zoo visitors in mind.

  26. daniellemybelle

    cantaloupe / 6669 posts

    This is definitely a sad story but I'm not going to get up in arms about the gorilla dying. Yes, it is an endangered species, but there are so many other tragic situations going on with factory farming, for example, or actual human beings being senselessly killed, and people go on with their lives. I just think it is a media sensation.

    The zoo could probably have a better enclosure, and sure, the parents should have watched their son better. But I'm not getting out my pitchfork. I have been pretty disappointed by some people on my Facebook newsfeed salivating over the opportunity to shame the parents. I don't get the thrill from hating on other people's parenting.

  27. Synchronicity

    grapefruit / 4089 posts

    I think it's an incredibly sad and unfortunate situation that should never have happened. The mother should have been watching more closely, and I couldn't believe the Facebook status she posted... "accidents happen"? Uh, you could show a little remorse. A member of an endangered species had to be shot because your kid went rogue while you were distracted.

    That being said, of course the zoo made the right call. That kid could have been killed in the blink of an eye. Also, people are going nuts about this but eat meat from factory farmed and inhumanely transported/slaughtered animals every damn day. There is a line people draw between one animal and the next and it seems very arbitrary to me.

  28. BSB

    hostess / wonderful apple seed / 16729 posts

    I just saw this picture. Up and over a fence and over some bushes 4 feet to the moat?



  29. Foodnerd81

    wonderful cherry / 21504 posts

    @Synchronicity: if I was ever involved in a story like this, I would definitely shut down my Facebook account, not post an "accidents happen, all's well that ends well!" Post. I'm not saying my kid could never get away from me and I would never make a mistake. But I'd react differently afterwards for sure.

  30. Synchronicity

    grapefruit / 4089 posts

    @Foodnerd81: right?! Pretty damn offensive considering what was lost.

  31. californiadreams

    pomegranate / 3411 posts

    @Foodnerd81: @Synchronicity: i found her apparent lack of remorse for the gorilla off putting too at first.....but then i realized that when she wrote that post, she was probably still in shock and experiencing the aftermath of almost witnessing her child horrifically die. I realized that when i watched the video, i imagined for a second that it was my son trapped in there and getting dragged around- and in that second, the gorilla becomes nothing to me. I can only imagine that after her son was rescued, she was just beyond grateful that he was safe, regardless of how it had to happen and probably did not fully appreciate the impact of what had to happen.

  32. Foodnerd81

    wonderful cherry / 21504 posts

    @californiadreams: totally agree- I can't even imagine the horror. BUT, my first response while I was in shock just would not be to post on Facebook about it.

  33. californiadreams

    pomegranate / 3411 posts

    @Foodnerd81: right, i don't think i would post about it either. But i don't know what it feels like to have the world shaming me, so maybe i would react different than i think. I guess she felt she needed to say something? and probably didn't think it through enough.

  34. Synchronicity

    grapefruit / 4089 posts

    @californiadreams: she probably was in shock and obviously incredibly thankful that her child survived, because it could have so easily gone the other way... But "accidents happen" with no mention of the loss of life? I agree with @Foodnerd81: , she probably should have said nothing at all.

  35. californiadreams

    pomegranate / 3411 posts

    @Synchronicity: yup. i definitely agree she would be better off having not said anything. It's just my guess that she was still in shock and didn't think through her words. And now it sucks for her that they are forever ingrained on the internet. I could be wrong, maybe she has no remorse. I was just imagining that in that moment and the hours that followed, my focus, as the mother of the boy in the enclosure, would likely be on my son and his near death experience more than the gorilla . It is easier for everyone else to be more objective.

  36. Amorini

    persimmon / 1132 posts

    I'm rubbed totally wrong by the "accidents happen" FB comment, as so many others have said. The whole statement just seems tone deaf and saddens me, but I am also a huge pro-wildlife/animal lover person so that is my bias.

    Forgive me for nerding out, but my real point in inserting myself here was the interesting graphic posted by @bluestriped bee:. As anti-zoo as I am fundamentally, they aren't going away. I am open to the notion that zoos have the potential to contribute to conservation and connecting humans to a greater understanding of our place in the animal world. (Clearly we have more to learn, as this tragedy reveals to some degree!) Anyway, zoo exhibit design happens to fall within the realm of my day job, though not my exact everyday type of project for obvious reasons. This graphic illustrates a 1970s or so version of "modern" design for zoo exhibits... designed in the early days of cageless exhibits when societal attitudes about zoos and conservation were changing! (@bluestripedbee: this technique is employed at your Seattle zoo, too, and it was actually pioneered -- and then later updated -- there if I recall correctly! I can't remember which exhibits!) The flaws in this design (only 3-foot fence and 4-foot of bushes, for example) have been improved on in today's exhibit design and things continue to improve. However, all designs and engineered feats that we rely on or don't think twice about are a.) constantly improving and b.) designed to fail at some point. So human responsibility comes into play too! And yes, even an "accidents happen" philosophy applies, too, but in the wake of such an "accident," it seems a bit callous since it was not the gorilla's fault or choice to be held captive and be a victim of circumstance.

  37. BSB

    hostess / wonderful apple seed / 16729 posts

    @Amorini: thanks for chiming in. I was wondering how this was going to affect zoos across the country (maybe even internationally). I'm sure there is a lot of talk in the zoo community now.

  38. JenGirl

    clementine / 756 posts

    I was thrilled to hear, on NPR this morning, that the parents of the child are asking that anyone who wants to make donations to them should make the donation to the zoo in Harambe's name. I'm hoping that now that they've had a bit of time to get over their shock, they're showing some remorse for the gorilla that was shot. I'm really hoping this winds up without litigation for anyone.

  39. avivoca

    watermelon / 14467 posts

    I saw something in the news today that officials are going to investigate the family. That really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, I'm sad that the gorilla was shot, but the little boy's life was in danger. I wish they hadn't had to shoot him, but I know deep down that it was the best option they had.

    I also hate that as a society, we tend to have more sympathy for the gorilla than the child and his family. Did he (the boy) do something wrong? Absolutely. Kids can run away at any time, as I'm sure we all know. Did the mom do anything wrong? Probably not. Kids can disappear in a split second, like I said before. Did the zoo do something wrong? I definitely think that the enclosure could have been safer, but they did what they thought was best in this dangerous situation.

    @Amorini: That is really interesting information! I know that the design of the gorilla exhibit at our zoo is very different from that (much of the public viewing is indoors separated by glass while the gorillas are outdoors).

  40. ShootingStar

    coconut / 8472 posts

    @avivoca: I'm not trying to vilify the mom, but I think in a situation like this, an investigation could be warranted. Yes, we all make mistakes and we all know what toddlers/preschoolers are like. I'm guessing it was a normal parenting mistake. But what if it wasn't? What if this really did happen due to some on-going neglect? What if she drinks or does drugs or is neglectful in some other way? It would truly be awful if something else happened to her son because of a bad parenting situation.

    This incident was so public, and could easily be the cause of parental neglct, so I think authorities are kind of obligated to at least do a cursory investigation.

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