Hellobee Boards

@avivoca: @ShootingStar: I agree there should be an investigation because, you know, your kid fell into a gorilla enclosure, but I think there should always be an investigation when this type of thing happens. What really rubs me the wrong way is that apparently this happens more often than we would think (I've now read stories of at least 3 kids that fell into gorilla exhibits, 1 kid that fell into a wild dog exhibit and was killed and another kid who fell into a cheetah exhibit and was rescued by his parents) and this is the only time that I know of that the parents are being investigated.

@Madison43: the mom of the cheetah incident was arrested and charged bc she was dangling her 2 year old over the fence. The zoo counter sued against the painted dog tragedy bc the mom again was dangling her child over the fence.

I don't think there's any reason for this family to be investigated but I do think it's a very good step for the mom to suggest that donations go to the zoo.

@Maysprout: I stand corrected about the cheetah incident - she was arrested. In the dog incident, the mom was not charged. The parents sued the zoo in civil court for damages stemming from their son's death and the zoo counter claimed arguing that the mom was negligent because she was dangling him over (which is a fair argument, in my opinion).

In any event, I don't know if the mom should be charged - it may have just been an accident and nothing negligent, but an investigation is totally appropriate IMO.

@ShootingStar: OMG, are you serious??? What if she drinks or does drugs??? Why are these even things we're considering??? She has three (or was it four) kids!! One of whom was a baby! Maybe her four year old is generally very responsible and she had her hands full with the other kids and it just never would've OCCURRED to her that he'd be so crazy as to climb the fence, get through the bushes, and then fall into the Gorilla pit. To think that there was something nefarious going on is absolutely insane to me.

I'm ashamed of us as a society that our brains work like this. If the poor child had been killed instead of the Gorilla, would we be saying things like "I blame the mother!" and "SHE should be investigated!"

And anyone who thinks "Oh, that would NEVER happen to me - I'm obviously a much better parent!" is delusional. THINGS happen and it's a tragedy that this Gorilla had to be killed because of it, but to fault the mom and think her whole parenting needs to be INVESTIGATED??? Come on!

@bluestriped bee: that's a big drop in shallow water!

I am just happy we are not looking at a double tragedy.

@MrsSCB: My thoughts exactly.

@MrsSCB: I read this article yesterday. I'm suprised PETA agrees on the decision that was made. I think there are a lot of places that require safety rules (amusement parks, carnivals) and I think Zoos should be one of them (I'm sure they do have safety protocols and procedures to follow). I do think that like any tragic event you learn from it and improve things to make sure they won't happen again. You mention parks. Parks have rules about staying on the path and they have flyers and signs about what things to lookout for. But most parks cost nothing to enter. It's pretty much known taking a hike is doing it at your own risk. We are paying to go to the zoo so I think it would be good for the zoo to keep the animals safe and also try to prevent accidents from happening. There are plenty of other zoos out there that have glass surrounding some of their exhibits.

http://pets.people.com/pets/2016/05/31/article/peta-jack-hanna-and-jane-goodall-7-expert-opinions-harambe-gorillas-tragic?xid=socialflow_facebook_peoplemag

"Surprisingly, Julia Gallucci a primatologist for the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) agrees.

“I think under circumstances they probably made the right call,” she tells PEOPLE. “But it should have been prevented which is the main problem.”

“It's tragic that the zoo enabled this to happen by not having the right barriers in place,” she adds. “The enclosure should be designed in such a way that if a human penetrates the fence, they won't be in the habitat with the animal. A lot of habitats are like this. You're looking down into the habitat. So the animal can't climb out … and of course the parents should be watching their children.”

That said, Galluci blames the zoo not the parent for Harambe's demise. “I feel like the responsibly rests upon the zoo, ultimately that is the organization that is there to protect the gorillas,” she says. “They can't rely on parents to ensure children don't go into the habitat.”

@bluestriped bee: But do you know what rule or rules are specifically stated at the zoo? And would a four-year-old know to follow them or is it up to the parent to enforce any rules? I don't think it's the responsibility of the zoo to put a clear sign on a barrier like the one in question saying, "Don't climb over the barrier." The existence of the barrier clearly indicates that, and again, four-year-olds don't follow rules, so I don't see how stated or unstated rules make a difference. A four-year-old could just as easily wander off the path while hiking, but again, the parents are responsible for making sure that doesn't happen.

One single failure since the 1970s does not exactly indicate negligence on the part of the zoo. IMO when you go to a zoo, it's the perfect time to teach your children that you are in an animal's environment and you need to respect that, respect the animals and act accordingly. But then it's also my opinion that zoos should be first and foremost about animal protection and conservation, not simply for human entertainment. If the existing barrier optimizes the lives of these gorillas and has worked for about 40 years with only one negative incident, it doesn't make sense to blame the barrier for the issue. No barrier will be infallible for all time. Jeff Corwin's quote in the article you shared pretty much sums up my thoughts: "The zoo is not your babysitter...you have a responsibility. We have so many examples where people don't employ common sense.”

ETA: I don't put much stock at all into any statement by PETA because they have a clear agenda in blaming the zoo. It's stated on the PETA website that they oppose zoos as a whole, so it doesn't surprise me that they want to place the bulk of the blame on the zoo vs. the parents.

Ugh, I can't believe they are really investigating her. This is just sick and a waste of resources.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/31/us/gorilla-shot-harambe/

The tragedy happened after the boy told his mother he was going to get into the moat, and the mother admonished him to behave before being distracted by other children with her, Kimberly Ann Perkins O'Connor told CNN.
"The little boy himself had already been talking about wanting to go in, go in, get in the water and his mother is like, 'No you're not, no you're not,' " O'Connor said. "Her attention was drawn away for seconds, maybe a minute, and then he was up and in before you knew it."

@Adira: So basically I can expect to be investigated every time my child runs away from me in public then. Awesome.

@MrsSCB: I would feel safer being behind glass. (Clearly my opinion.) Unless the gorilla broke the glass in one impact, I'm pretty sure there was time for the child to step back if the glass was breaking. Also, if it was glass, they have that protective layer that prevents the glass from shattering into a million pieces. I think it's in our windshield in our car.

ETA: Clearly, I am against blaming the parents, so my next redirect would be the zoo. But I understand why the gorilla zoo exhibit was constructed the way it was.

@Adira: THANK YOU.

I mean, really...maybe the mother drinks or does drugs? One single incident leads people to believe she's a chronically neglectful mother with a substance abuse problem?!

As for mom's "accidents happen" post, perhaps she was referring to her kid getting away from her, not to the gorilla getting shot?

Yes, it's sad the gorilla was shot. I promise you the zookeepers did not easily make this decision and are haunted by it. I'm quite certain they'll be making changes to the security around their habitats. It's a shame it took something like this for them to have to evaluate that, but it is what it is. Sometimes tragedies have to occur in order for changes to be made...

But c'mon. Villifying the mother OR the zoo is just completely unfair. People need to CTFD.

@Adira: Yes, I'm serious. After having been through training for foster to adopt, I've realized not every parent out there is a capable parent. There ARE parents out there who drink and do drugs and still may take their kids to the zoo. You should hear some of the stories that I have, and it makes you wonder how these parents haven't lost rights to their kids sooner.

I'm not saying that's what happened with this woman. I said in my earlier post it was probably a mistake that any of us could make. But there are parents out there who are neglectful, and when something this public happens where a mom lost track of her 4 year old long enough for him to put himself in serious danger, the authorities should at least look into it. I'm not suggesting a witch hunt. I'm not suggesting taking her to task for normal parenting mishaps. I'm just saying in a case like this, they have to do their due diligence and make the kids are not in a dangerous home situation.

@ShootingStar: I think we need to give parents the benefit of the doubt, not automatically jump to conclusions. Just because something happens in public, doesn't mean we need a formal investigation into it. That kind of thinking will just lead parents to never want to go anywhere because God-forbid their child gets away from them for two seconds and gets into a dangerous situation, they could be investigated it for it BECAUSE MAYBE THEY DRINK AND DO DRUGS AND ARE NEGLECTFUL! I mean, come on, seriously???

https://www.facebook.com/guardtheirhearts/photos/a.1407999666185266.1073741829.1406602546324978/1622009154784315/?type=3&theater

"Dear Mother of The boy who fell into the gorilla pit,
I can't ignore all of the news stories today discussing how you should be held accountable for the death of Harambe, a gorilla. I'm a mama of 3 kiddos and although not one of my children have ever fallen into a gorilla pit, I have to say that I'm no better than you. I'd say that I, and every single parent in this world, have gotten lucky with our own close calls. Like the time my 4 year-old 1st born slipped out of my locked front door while I took 2 minutes to brush my teeth. He was found by a neighbor standing under a chainsaw-wielding tree trimmer. Or the time my 2nd child nearly drowned at age 3. I had closely watched him all day as he swam secured in his life vest. It wasn't until we were leaving the pool that he found that split second to quietly slip back into the pool as I had turned my back to grab our belongings. Or the time my 3rd child narrowly escaped getting bit by multiple copperhead snakes that sat just a few feet from my front door. Most moms don't require their 5 year olds to wear snake proof boots while playing. Oh, I can't forget to tell you of the time that I traveled a few blocks from home and forgot to actually buckle the baby into his carseat!
I've also heard your husband has a long criminal history. My husband has never been in trouble with the law, but that doesn't mean that we love our children any more than you do. My point? I'm wondering if this crazy world has led you to believe that you are an awful parent. You are not. The rest of us have just gotten lucky. To all of the people who have opinions on parenting, but don't actually have children or maybe just have one little angel...we all laugh at you and would love for you to spend 4 hours in our shoes. So mama of the little boy, the rest of us mamas and daddys who know the truth have got your back. We know that a toddler can be stealth and disappear in 2.5 seconds. Your village is still here and we love that your HUMAN child's precious life was chosen over that of a gorilla."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/01/opinions/harambe-gorilla-shooting-coates/index.html

"To be sure, it defies logic that a child could be adequately supervised and still navigate the extensive obstacles put in place to prevent this very thing. But it would also defy logic to prosecute that child's parents for Harambe's unforeseeable death in this case. It would be akin to prosecuting the mother whose child runs into traffic to retrieve a ball and causes a fatal accident.

The neglect statutes are designed to punish inadequate and dangerous child-rearing practices that are emotionally or physically harmful. They are not, without more evidence, designed to punish a lapse in judgment that caused a third party to make an independent decision to kill the gorilla."

@Adira: I just think you're being incredibly naive. Not all parents deserve the benefit of the doubt. What if this woman IS neglectful? She's probably not, but what if she is and no one even bothers to investigate?

So here's a real life story where the mom is neglectful. She gets high and loses track of her kids, and sometimes leaves them at home alone so she can go out at night. Her four year old gets of the house in the middle of the night and wanders around in pajamas. He almost gets hit by a car but someone rescues him. CPS investigates and the kids are put in foster care. Now think about all the times the mom may have put her kid in danger before that. Children of neglect live through many life endangering situations before someone figures out they need help.

Now just imagine that mom had taken her kids to the zoo a few months before her son gets out of the house. She's hung over and used to barely supervising her kids. When she's not paying close enough attention, one kid climbs over a fence and falls 20 feet into a gorilla enclosure. The police give her the benefit of the doubt and don't investigate the home situation, leaving the kids to continue being in danger.

Neglectful parents constantly make bad choices and put their kids in dangerous situations. Normal parents occasionally make mistakes and an accidents happen. Do you know for sure from the news stories what kind of parent this woman is? I'm not judging her, I'm not condemning her for a mistake. I'm just saying that with an accident of this magnitude, it bears investigating to make sure she really isn't neglectful.

@Foodnerd81: Thank you, that's what I was trying to say .

@Foodnerd81: that's pretty much the definition of a witch hunt.
I said I thought it was the fault of the parents but I'm even surprised how little there was. My 4 year old could easily be through those obstacles in 5 seconds. There looks like there was a second small wall before the moat, it does seem like kids at that age would understand heights - so he either had such a drivingotivation to go in or started to climb over the second wall and slipped.
I still think it's odd to think zoos should be 4 year old proof but there seems like there's no evidence that she was significantly neglecting her kid. (Though I do think they should be contributing funds for the zoos loss, some accountability bc there still was a tragedy as a result of their error). But it wasn't actively doing something like the women who were dangling their children over wild animal pits.

@Adira: I'm not sure how you get that from what I've responded. I've said repeatedly and calmly that this may just be an accident that could've happened to any parent. I just think it's best to rule out a situation of neglect. Because seriously - this kid didn't just fall and skin his knee. He got into a serious life threatening situation. As @LindsayLou: posted, they were questioned due to their child having broken his leg. Should we expect less from authorities when a kid gets into a situation where he could have died?

This may be off topic, or maybe someone else mentioned it. But I heard that the mom told the public that if anyone wanted to donate money to her, they should donate to the zoo instead. Why in the world would anyone donate money to the mom in this situation?