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I think @blackbird: was merely pointing out a fact in regards to perception of threat in the US, not that she thought it was right.

The fact of the matter is, for the majority of white Americans, a black male is going to be perceived as a higher threat. It's ingrained in is as a society (sadly).

You can claim to be above racism all you want, but I am willing to bet that if you are a white woman and are walking down a deserted city street at night you would be most threatened by a black male-->white male-->black female-->white female. Acknowledging the fact doesn't necessarily mean you agree with it.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this but I'm guilty of clutching my bag a little tighter when I'm alone in the city and a younger AA male is approaching. I'm not proud of it, I don't do it on purpose, but it's a reaction I've had.

In order to work past our prejudices in this country we have to be willing to admit they exist.

@lawbee11: I guess what I'm saying is that if the initial crime stops, a lot of these escalated issues stop with it. Which means addressing the underlying issues in addition to the reactions

This is a personal issue to me for several reasons. My family hales originally from East St. Louis. Anyone who knows the area knows that is a rough neighborhood. My large family dispersed around St. Louis and suburbs as soon as they could afford, and I now have family in almost every quadrant of St. Louis. I spent most of my growing up years in south city.
I was also an MP on a military base. I have held a weapon and attempted to protect citizens from each other and themselves. I have been in an unsuccessful suicide by cop situation (no cops fired, yay!) I have been in riot gear and stood nose to nose with war protestors who were spitting on me. At the gate of a base in the high terror alert time of post 9/11, I was physically attacked by an unwell woman while I was holding an M-16.
I feel very, very lucky to have never fired my weapon in that role and to never have to defend and live with the result.
Regarding questions about the indictment, here are two articles, one pro-police but pretty factual, one pro-protester that also explains the same thing with that slant. I truly believe that the jury came to a legal decision based on info they had and the law. Doesn’t mean the law shouldn’t change but they did their duty.
http://www.policeone.com/ferguson/articles/7782643-Why-Officer-Darren-Wilson-wasnt-indicted/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/11/darren_wilson_was_never_going_to_be_indicted_for_killing_michael_brown_our.html

@catomd00: I agree. The selection process and training for both police and military needs to be examined.

ETA: and, yes, I have profiled people by their race/ socioeconomic situation/ gender/looks both as a soldier and as a civilian.

I know this thread isn't about gun control, but to me the link is very clear. Police officers are skittish and too quick to use guns because ANYONE in the US can have a gun, it's a simple as that. And when a police officer has to assume that when a person is reaching, they are reaching for a real gun--then their automatic response will be to fire first. This is why an old man reaching for a cane was killed, and why a boy with an airsoft gun was killed.

It's pretty simple to me that if the police knew that the average citizen doesn't have a gun, then they wouldn't be so quick to draw a gun themselves. I've never bought the "but then the BAD people will still have guns!" argument, because you can look at any other country with strict gun control laws and see that statistically, that isn't the case. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/the-japan-lesson-can-americans-learn-from-the-country-that-has-almost-zero-gun-deaths/

Right now, the U.S. obviously cares more about "personal freedom" to buy and keep as money guns as possible (with no very few laws governing how they are stored, who can have them, where they can be bought) than we do about public safety.

I just wonder...how many deaths is it going to take--how many school shootings, how many police shootings, how many accidental gun deaths--until the paradigm shifts?

@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: No, i mean how the APB went out after the robbery about two guys, wearing a certain type of clothing, and how after Wilson approached Brown, he noted that he had the red socks (or jacket, something) and yellow trousers on that was called out in that notice. So as he noticed that the guys he had just encountered were the ones on his APB.....that jacks up the tension

@Meltini: I agree.

@Meltini: Absolutely.

We have to trust that the grand jury made the right decision based on the evidence that was given.

Fwiw, we had a situation very similar to this in my hometown a year or two ago. A cop killed a man in what he described as self defense. The details were a bit murky in terms of witnesses and what actually happened but no one made a huge deal out of it and the guy he shot was white. The response in Ferguson has been nothing short of atrocious and doesn't further the cause against racism at all, unfortunately.

I am surprised at the amount of victim blaming I've been seeing. Inequality, poverty, oppression all are violent acts that beget violence. That doesn't make it "okay," but that doesn't mean the solution solely rests with the victims.

I think a lot of the anger I am seeing at the looting and rioting is a thinly veiled way for people to justify the systemic violence. "See, of course the officer reacted the way he did - these people are dangerous." When you live in a system that teaches you that you are a threat based on who you are, and that the system doesn't respect you, it's unsurprising that it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

Would it have been amazingly more powerful to see peaceful protests throughout the streets of Ferguson? Yes. The violence is not right or good or fair. But when we still have such a violent, racist system (look at our drug laws, for instance. Or poverty rates for minorities) thr response in unsurprising.

There should have been a trial. To ask someone not to be angry about that is not fair. To ask them not to root might be fair, but it is equally fair for them to ask the rest of the country to take a look at why they are rioting.

Tl;dr: if you want peace, work for justice.

@MrsSCB: he absolutely knew about the robbery. In McColluch's statement that's the first thing he said he was identified by his red socks and yellow pants (or something along those lines)

@coopsmama: exactly the grand jury is the only ppl who've seen all the evidence, they were selected by a body of our peers if we don't want to trust that then what has our government come to

@jetsa: the police chief already said earlier that he didn't know. Awfully convenient that now he did know... And sorry but I don't believe the chief would have come out and said Wilson didn't know unless he was absolutely sure, because it makes him look bad.

@jedeve: "I think a lot of the anger I am seeing at the looting and rioting is a thinly veiled way for people to justify the systemic violence. "See, of course the officer reacted the way he did - these people are dangerous."

Yes, yes, yes. Completely agree.

@MrsSCB: I so agree with you. That article you posted was excellent. I just shared it on Facebook. I can guarantee that about 5 people will read it, though, because everyone else that I know seems to believe that we live in the farce that is post-racist America.

@MrsSCB: That article!! Thank you for sharing.

@Meltini: Duh! (And an eye roll) I think everyone should be taught that. The sadness comes from knowing they have to go much deeper than that. Telling their children that they better not ever run in a crowded place. And that they especially shouldn't run while carrying something. Because of profiling, law enforcement might assume they've stolen something or that they are carrying a gun. They have to explain to their children that because of the color of their skin, they must act differently in the presence of police, and statistically, they are more likely to be targeted for certain crimes, prosecuted for certain crimes, and be jailed longer for certain crimes (when compared to their white peers).

And yes, don't "attack" an officer. (Quotes because, did you see the photos?) I guess I'd also include that it probably won't end well because many officers do not have the proper training to deal with an unarmed teenager.

These children deserve more.

Sigh.

So I haven't been following this really, which means I don't have all of the facts and it makes it hard for me to have a really solid opinion on it. But I wonder some things.

1) If most violent crime in a certain area is committed by young black men dressed in a certain way, and you come across a young black dressed in that way who you also have good reason to believe just robbed a store, and that man speaks to you hostilely and (probably? it seems?) punches you, a police officer, and he also outweighs you by about 80 lbs... is it unreasonable to be fearful that this is a man who has the ability and intent to be (farther) harm you?

2) Is it wrong for us to give police officers the benefit of the doubt if it is at least extremely unclear due to conflicting information about an event whether that officer acted wrongly? would we continue to get good candidates to be police officers if they knew that their judgment would hold absolutely zero weight over someone who had not been trained, vetted, and hired as a trustworthy and law-enforcing person? And would we see more deaths of officers if they became fearful of using deadly force when they were alone without backup in an area because they knew that if they did use deadly force, and especially if that deadly force was used on a person of color, they would almost automatically be branded as racist and be brought before a jury? and where does the line fall in terms of who bears the tragedy in judgment calls? assuming that not every situation is so (excuse the term) black an white that it is absolutely clear when deadly force should be used and when it should not be used, are we more okay with more police officers dying because they are scared to use force and be brought up on trial? Or are we more okay with possibly innocent (of serious crimes although perhaps "guilty" of poor judgment in their interactions with law enforcement) men dying?

3) would this case, THIS particular case be such a national news story if it wasn't part of such a bigger trend? I have no doubt at all that black men in america, generally, are at risk of institutionalized racism in arrest, prosecution, and conviction. But if that was not true, would we look at this particular case with such scrutiny?

@coopsmama: For sure. I know you didn't mention only back people protesting, but to say that these protests aren't doing anything for the cause ... ?

From my fb feed (I'm originally from the Midwest), I'm seeing a lot of horribly racist comments about these protesters. It's just so sad.

I didn't say you were wrong. I just said it makes me uncomfortable. Again, I don't know what the appropriate reaction is. Personally, I, too, don't see the point of burning building and destroying a town. Earlier in this conversation, I mentioned that there are many protesters who are only there to cause a riot and destruction. I wish we could separate them from the people who are peacefully protesting (there's a lot more of that).

And, the article is pretty good. It's about what we can do to be allies in the anti racism movement.

@Mae: Well said!

A few points: I wouldn't say he "robbed" a store by stealing a pack of cigarettes. And, did he actually do it? I'll admit ignorance on that part (I don't remember if that was ever proven). I think saying "he robbed a store" is a word the media/police are using to victim blame. <- None of that is directed towards you at all. I just wonder of the overall implications of using certain words.

And, to your last point ... That's such a good question. I imagine that we don't hear much about white people being unfairly targeted and killed because it's not as big of an issue, and like you said, because it's not such a deeply rooted problem. It's so hard to imagine a world where our country isn't full of racism (intentional or not), but I feel as though this wouldn't have been a race issue in that case.

@coopsmama: So true!! And of course I didn't think you were using it as an excuse for racism. I knew you were talking about implications of the overall situation.

I am hopeful that this starts many conversations: between communities and police, between races, between parents and children, between the people and government.