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Hmm, I do think taking a pack of cigars without paying is robbery. Just a very small robbery. And it's a good idea not to do it, and not to attack a police officer. Even if you feel poor.
I'm sure we've all been wronged by somebody. Maybe even in big ways that will follow us for the rest of our lives. I don't know how many of us have dealt with chronic unemployment and bad neighborhoods. But does that mean that we're no longer responsible for how we choose to live our life?
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Here's a picture of Michael Brown attacking a store clerk, just for size reference. He was not a little kid. He was a legal adult, 6'4", & 250lb. Not carrying a weapon doesn't exactly make you "unarmed" in the sense that you are not a threat anymore, you just don't have a material weapon. Agreeing with @Meltini: here.. Cop or not, someone comes at you aggressively you are allowed to defend yourself. Period.
And the riots? Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. You don't agree with the law so trash your own neighborhood, put your neighbors out of a job by burning a store down? Cool, makes sense. I'm sure Walgreens had a lot to do with all of this. They were wearing masks before the verdict was even announced, I'm sure the great majority of the "protesters" there were only there to loot and act like an animal. It's so sad that Brown's family has to go on knowing that they lost their son, and their town is completely trashed "in his honor". Stupid.
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@mrsjazz: Well thanks for adding that to the conversation....sorry if it offends you but all children should be taught how to interact with our first responders and police force. If you disagree with that statement then I would love to have a conversation surrounding that.
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@Meltini: do you see how minimizing your response to @littlejoy was regarding conversations parents of black children need to have with them? that response demonstrated either a complete lack of understanding of the challenges black males face in america or a complete disregard for their well being. i sincerely hope it just comes from a lack of understanding.
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@Mama Bird: And I think it's stealing. Either way, it's not a crime punishable by death in the United States.
I will not, for 1 second, try to say that because I've overcome adversity in my life, that I can understand what it's like to be a black person in America. Personal responsibility only goes so far. This system is broken. When a race is historically oppressed, I'd say there are many more elements that dictate behavior.
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@jedeve: totally agree. We need to address the reasons behind the violence FIRST.
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@mrs. bird: Thank you. You clarified how I feel about what @Meltini: said. That was so insensitive.
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@mrs. bird: I feel like this is making a huge leap. We are talking about a situation where a person attacked a police officer (according to all evidence I am familiar with) and was shot and killed in what has been deemed self defense. All children should know that attacking cops is not a good decision.
Yes if we want to talk about race we all know that black males who act and dress a certain way are perceived negatively. Should parents talk to their children about the way they are perceived and the potential consequences of that? Yes. But I think that is a conversation that should happen regardless of race.
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@Meltini: *black makes are perceived negatively. They don't have to act or dress a "certain way." My black friends will be teaching their sons that they may be targeted solely because of their skin color. That's reality and it's heartbreaking and infuriating.
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@littlejoy: robbery is, by definition, stealing something from a person by violence. If the clerks back was turned and he made off with a pack of something, that's stealing (or shoplifting even). But using violence to take it from a person is robbery. It isn't about the value of what was stolen but the violence, which I think is relevant to Wilson's judgment to use deadly force. With regards to if he did it-- Wilson didn't know at the time obviously but the description was pretty specific. If the description had been black make in a black hoodie-- that tells you almost nothing. But the yellow socks-- those are uncommon. I think he had a good faith reasonable belief it could be the robber. Particularly after their initial confrontation.
Like I said-- I don't know all the facts. But I think my questions make clear which way i lean. It's possible for sure someone could give me more info and I'd change my mind. But based on what I know it seems to me that Wilson's actions were either reasonable or perhaps an overreaction that falls into the category of "bad call in hindsight but not so wrong you should be charged with a crime." And it sort of feels to me like the fact that black men generally are often treated unfairly by our system is coloring the public view of THIS case.
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@MrsTiz: really? Act like animals?
When I was in high school, a ninth grade girl punched out school officer. She was arrested, but not beaten, shot, or killed. Yes, she was less of a physical threat to the officer than a full grown man. But the punishment is supposed to fit the crime, not the person. Yes the officer should defend himself but he should also know how to do that without killing.
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I don't understand why people are so upset that there won't be a trial? Is there some misunderstanding about the level of evidence that is necessary for a grand jury indictment? The bar is very low. If there wasn't enough evidence for an indictment, then there was clearly not enough evidence for a conviction. There is no scenario where a trial would be beneficial. Let's put the families (on both sides) through a trial, only for the same outcome just months down the line? Who benefits from that (besides the media)? There is a reason that grand juries exist. Is it that hard to believe that the evidence showed that there was no crime committed?
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@Meltini: I plan on telling my children that black kids do not deserve to be killed no matter how they dress. That's the conversation that needs to happen.
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@MrsTiz: it actually does make perfect sense. This isn't an isolated incident. There are decades of racism at play in ferguson, and when people are oppressed and that anger boils over, they will naturally take it out on the symbols of that oppression, including "their own neighborhoods."
ETA: this is addressed to everyone: Also, it's pretty funny how no one gets so outraged calling people animals when white people riot over stupid shit. I guess when it's about pumpkins or football it's more worthwhile than equality and justice.
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@jedeve: "The punishment should fit the crime" has no place in this discussion. Brown wasn't "punished" and anyone who argues that is being disingenuous. There is no reasonable person who thinks he "deserved" to be killed. But in self defense situations, that sometimes happens.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/how-to-help-ferguson_n_5688541.html
"7. Don't allow irrelevant narratives to deflect from the larger issue at hand.
As Michael Brown's death unfolds in the media, numerous developments haphazardly released by the Ferguson Police Department have served to distract from the core issue behind the Ferguson protests: Another unarmed, black teenager has been gunned down by law enforcement with little to no explanation.
On Friday, the Ferguson police chief released a video allegedly depicting Brown in a strong-arm robbery at a convenience store, where police claim he stole a $48.99 box of Swisher Sweets cigars. Jackson later noted that the robbery was unrelated to Brown's death.
On Monday, The Washington Post reported that the St. Louis County medical examiner revealed that Brown had "marijuana in his system" when he died.
Throughout the ongoing unrest in Ferguson, some people have also focused on a minority of hostile protesters looting local stores as a justification for police brutality against a larger group of peaceful protesters with a more pressing mission: justice for Brown.
Regardless of whether an 18-year-old stole a pack of cigars or had marijuana in his system when he died, his life had value and the circumstances of his death deserve fair and complete examination. Black Americans have had to remind the rest of the nation this a few too many times."
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@MrsSCB: I was just going to ask @MrsTiz: if she calls people who riot over sporting events animals, too?
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I agree that there have been some insensitive comments in this thread.
There was a great four-part series about race in the Times by Nicholas Kristof... here's part 4 (with links to the earlier columns):
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/opinion/sunday/when-whites-just-dont-get-it-part-4.htmlWhat I found really sobering is that "black/white economic inequality ... is greater in America today than it was in apartheid South Africa." I thought it was a really interesting series. I didn't love that the author talked as if there are only two groups of people in America, but that said the comparison here was especially powerful.
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@mrsjazz: And interestingly I often see "animals" used interchangeably with "thugs"... Neither word is one I appreciate.
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@jedeve: "I plan on telling my children that black kids do not deserve to be killed no matter how they dress. That's the conversation that needs to happen."
AMEN!
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I think there needs to be more scrutiny over police actions. In one of the last places I lived a police officer had struck 2 pedestrians on 2 different occasions while he was speeding and not responding to a call and he was not indicted because of a whole lot of BS reasons. In my parents city two different unarmed mentally handicapped people have been killed by police this year and again the police were found innocent because the victims actions may have been interpreted as aggressive. These were all white victims, I think police officers are unquestioned too often
I don't think there's any question that black people are targeted way more by police than white people.
So I get why there's unrest. I don't know who's in the right but I get why people are upset. A lot of the protesters are either getting into mob mentality or using crowds as an excuse to get away with stuff. But that doesn't mean there isn't a solid root to the protests. And I think @jedeve: has been spot on with a lot of her thoughts.
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@jedeve: why does the word black even need to be in that statement? No kid deserves to die based on their dress....
Also, want to say again that nobody here is saying he deserved it. -
@Meltini: Because I was specifically talking about the sadness I feel knowing that so many black families must have this conversation with their children. It's the reality! Black kids are getting killed by cops. This whole conversation is about race and how it's such a part of our culture and the behavior of the citizens.
Of course, the ideal is to teach your children to be colorblind, but sadly, I don't think that's a reality in today's world. Instead, I will strive to teach my children the beauty of different races and cultures. Part of that is discussing negative connotations or events that shape who we are as a culture. So yes, I do think it merits a specific discussion with children about race.
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@Meltini: I've never heard outfits of a white kid being brought up as an excuse for an attack. But in the Trayvon Martin case even on Hellobee I saw several people saying since he was wearing a hoodie he looked aggressive and thug like and I'm not even sure what their argument was - I guess they think black people shouldn't wear hoodies.
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@Maysprout: So sad!! My hometown had an officer plow through a group of motorcycles. He killed a man. He was heavily intoxicated (the officer). His fellow officers and superiors covered it all up. Years later, still on the job, he crashed (again, very intoxicated), and only now is legal action being brought against him. So yeah, these things happen. So horrible.
Not directly related to your point, but I am not advocating for a trial so the officer is found guilty. Like I said previously, my heart aches for him. His life is ruined. He killed someone ... and it was probably in a moment of panic.
I think I can feel this way, and still question the system that determines guilt in this country. There's a problem that needs a major fix.
Aside from cops wearing cameras (which I support), what other ways do we think this can change?? I think one element is parents (of all races) talking to their children about the world. (I think the last few comments touch on this.) Another is police really getting involved with their community. Let's get these kids acquainted with the officers from an early age. Mutual respect goes a long way when it comes to expectations and behavior (both ways).
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@coopsmama: you say that what's happening in Ferguson will do nothing help combat racism and yet, several people on Hellobee alone have admitted that this case has really opened their eyes to racial injustice. So I have to respectfully disagree.
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@jedeve: @mrsjazz: Yes, animals.
@MrsSCB: White people riots? Really? Did I say that these people are behaving like animals because they're black? Are you kidding me right now? I didn't mention race in any way, shape, or form. Guess who else riots.. gay people, Hispanic people, Indian people, Asian people, all kinds of people! If you get angry/excited about something and your first instinct is to flip over a car or light a store on fire..you're an idiot. I used the word "animals" because animals aren't smart enough to know to control their feelings. Dogs tear shit up all the time. Does that make the dogs "thugs"? No.And FWIW, I wasn't using the word "Animals" to replace the word "Thug". If I wanted to call them thugs, I would have. You can step off your soapbox now because surprise! surprise!, Not everyone is a big fat racist just because they are on the cops side.
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@littlejoy: I agree, I think every police officer should have dash cameras and wear a camera on their vests. Always.
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@meredithNYC: Well, that's a good point - and I'm very happy to see that something good can come out of this horrible situation. (At the end of the day it's horrible for all involved.) But I will say I truly think, at least with the people I know/am somehow aquainted with and am friends with on FB that does not seem the case and in fact seems to be quite the opposite.
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@MrsTiz: I'm sorry, I obviously didn't realize you regularly went around decrying all of the riots over football, baseball, and pumpkins as you are this one. My mistake. But the reality still remains most people don't give a shit about those riots like they do about this one. If you wanna believe that's not about race be my guest. This is no soap box, it's the truth.
Surprise surprise! Not everyone's a racist! But a lot of people are.
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<< And FWIW, I wasn't using the word "Animals" to replace the word "Thug". If I wanted to call them thugs, I would have. You can step off your soapbox now because surprise! surprise!, Not everyone is a big fat racist just because they are on the cops side. >>
@MrsTiz: I don't think anyone said that. The focus was on your word choice. I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but there's a long history of the word "animals" being used to refer to African-Americans, who have been characterized as less than a full human (it's even in the Constitution: "three fifths of all other Persons").
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@Maysprout: Umm...yes. White people are profiled (and suffer the consequences) based on how they dress too.
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@MrsTiz: I don't think it's a matter of not being able to control their feelings--I think, as others have said, it's a matter of feeling like you have no other avenues for expression where people will pay attention (whether that is in fact true or not), and a result of a build up of years and years of frustration and anger. Maybe it's kind of like kids--sometimes negative attention is better than no attention at all. I also don't think rioting is anyone's first instinct in a case like this, but when you feel like there is no one that is going to help or listen or do anything constructive...then I think it leads to reactions like this.
In addition, (not pointed at you) I think calling rioters "animals", or focusing so much on this minority of people reacting in this way, de-legitimizes their very legitimate anger and frustration, and that of the larger group of peaceful protesters, over the outcome of this case.
@Meltini: you are right that no one deserves to die based on their dress. But the reality is that people of color do have to worry about that much more than white people.
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I think all police vehicles should have dash cams. Even better all cops should have a camera/microphone on their person at all times while on duty.
That said, I think the courts made the right call in this instance. I think everyone else in Ferguson should listen to what Brown's family said.
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@mrbee: Wow!! I just learned something new today. The three fifths clause information was definitely never included in my home school curriculum education back in high school! (And I know why - just again shocked to discover yet again what my ultra conservative education hid from me.
) That is appalling.
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@Meltini: ok, But I think that the distinction is that a white woman I have never had a single experience in my life where I felt profiled, or attracted the attention of law enforcement simply because of my physical appearance or dress. Neither has brother, brothers in law, or husband (white men). I'm sure if you polled persons of color on hellobee they'd have a much, much different story.
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@mrbee: yeah, she did. Linking me to a white people riot website and saying that animals and thugs can be used interchangeably.. Pretty clearly saying just that.
Anything can be racist if you work hard enough to make it so. I was not implying that AA people are animals. Not even a little bit. There were white people rioting in every single city that rioted, they were being called animals as well. . @hilsy85: right, their anger may be justified but people were coming from other towns just to join in on looting businesses. Didn't give a crap about the situation, just free shit. There's a live stream of someone that was in the thick of it recording on his phone, he's live streaming and out of nowhere someone steals his phone. You see the phone running into the woods and the guys friend asking what he got and the theif said "an iPhone 6!" That isn't anger that you don't know where to put, that's being a thief. If you get caught you go to jail, where they put you behind bars.. Like an animal.
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@MrsTiz: I wasn't saying that you were saying that. I was saying that animals is a racially charged word, and that it is generally a good idea to be careful when using it.
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@Meltini: Your comments have taken me aback and I am shocked that you think it is okay that we have to teach our children to be a shadow of themselves in order to fly under the radar and not attract negative attention from the police. The police have an obligation to protect and serve my child, my child shouldn't have to worry about 'walking while black'. This is a real issue that has to be experienced to be believed. Have you ever been told to your face that you can't get into a taxi or come into a bar or nightclub because you are black? I have, and the fury I felt then was such a tiny fraction of what black males feel in this country. Nobody wants that for their children, a little more empathy would go a long way.
) That is appalling.
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