Hellobee Boards

@looch and @mamag: yeah, that was clearly some members have unresolved issues with their upbringing. Train wreck territory.

@looch: @yoursilverlining: @mamag Yeah, that was something else! *smh*

@Navy_Mommy: I think that's pretty unfair. The majority of people on assistance are doing everything they can to get off assistance and better their lives. You're implying that everyone on assistance is just taking the "easy" route (which, I'd argue is not easy at all), which I find offensive.

@JoJoGirl: do you actually think it's possible to "fix" when SO MANY facets are broken? This is not just like elect a new president, everything will get better. This is not just health-care, or just Foster system, or just SNAP or WIC. There are too many broken parts, and giving the government more money won't fix what is broken.

@Adira: we qualify for assistance based off how much money we make. We choose not to get it because we don't actually need it. To me that says that system is broken, but many people would because, why not? I don't think that's an unfair assumption.

Many of the people who are for MORE government assistance seem to think the majority of people using it have NO OTHER CHOICE and in my experience that just isn't the case. Having no choices and not liking your choices are two different things. Obviously your experiences and interactions have been vastly different than mine.

@Navy_Mommy: I think it's important to remember that one's experiences aren't the ONLY experiences that there are. Just because you know it's possible to find success without using assistance doesn't mean that it's ALWAYS possible, you know? My opinion is that there should be those safety nets in place so that someone doesn't have to just figure it all out on their own like your husband did. I think it's AWESOME that he was able to find something that worked for him and better his situation, but that doesn't mean that it's possible for everyone to do the same on their own and that we shouldn't help them just because some people might be okay without help.

@Navy_Mommy: I'm happy that your husband was able to pull himself out of the terrible situation he was in, especially given that he was not responsible for the choices that put him there. It's been stated that many people are either poor and/or on assistance through no fault of their own, and I agree. I don't, however, believe that the route your husband took is open for everyone. Recruitment offices don't take everyone that walks in the door; if they don't meet certain standards of health, fitness, and yes, even education, they aren't accepted.

@Rockies11: I could have written that post myself. Thanks for putting it so eloquently!

I just don't think the government, as it stands, should be given MORE money in the US when they're already so wasteful and inefficient with what they do get. Fix problems first, then give them more money. Not the other way around.

@Navy_Mommy: Sure, but the wider HB community is not. Also, at least in Canada, you need a permanent address and telephone number to put on your forms, so that eliminates many people who would be using the military as means of escape from their situation. I used to work in recruitment myself, and while I know recruitment standards differ between countries and even branches of service, one thing that is common is that not everyone is eligible. Just like not everyone would be eligible for the other options you allude to.
*Not being confrontational here, but there is sometimes no easy fix (or even a hard one) available to the individual that will completely pull themselves out of poverty. I think the system requires an overhaul from the top down. Unfortunately, there seems little impetus for that.

@looch: I bet my butt paste is looking pretty good right now... don't you wish your son wasn't potty trained?

ETA: Sorry for my failure to have any constructive comments in this thread. This was an interesting read, though!

@LBee: At least you're owning it!

@Cherrybee: I honestly think its super healthy to have discussions and hear other peoples perspectives. You just never know who is capable of understanding each persons right to their own opinion...without the whole "you're wrong" component being added in. An opinion cant be wrong...facts can be...

Its how we grow and evolve to hear other people out - which is why I am not afraid to engage in the discussion. I only find it unfortunate when people enter these discussions with a closed mind or having already decided what someones opinion must be. Its sad as I re-read some of the comments here (aside from the blatant ones that offer no value to the discussion except to bash) and see that no matter how many times something is said clearly people can only seem to read what they perceive - not what the person was saying.

I certainly agree that the things I have seen and witnessed first hand have shaped my view point to an extent...how could it not, right? But I also fundamentally believe in putting in effort for those things we receive - which also shapes my opinion - beyond basic human needs. I will always fully support the funding of shelters and what not that literally provide basic needs (food, shelter, water). When it comes to aid that is managed by the person in need I am just supportive of more oversight and restrictions on use...which in my opinion would not be an issue to those who plan to use their support the right way.

@Mrs D: Unfortunately, neither do I.
And for what it's worth, I value your contributions to this thread. Yes, your opinions differ from my own, but you have brought up numerous points that come from your own experiences in an effort to broaden the awareness and understanding of your "opponents." Most importantly, you have kept the conversation civil. I don't think you will ever change my opinion (I'm far too socialist, I'm afraid), but I do appreciate hearing others' points of view.

@Navy_Mommy: I've seen firsthand how nonprofits waste money as well. I think like the government there are good parts and bad parts. It's hard to differentiate between them and sometimes you don't know unless you have inside knowledge because the waste doesn't show up in their tax filings.

I was going to post this on the last thread, but here is my overall thoughts on why us Americans will keep spinning in circles.

We have this idea that you can be a self made man, someone who pulls themselves up by their bootstraps. As I understand it, that story developed as immigrants from countries like England developed the notion our country wasn't as class bound - you weren't destined to be in service or be royalty from birth. People like Andrew Carnegie started at poor and became rich. We fell in love with the new idea of social mobility. It was more hopeful than realizing most people still stay in their position.

Now that narrative had been co-opted for a different purpose. It's used as a defense for wealth - I'm rich because I worked hard, other people could be too if they just tried. This is used to justify things like tax systems which are disproportionately hard on the poor (let's not forget that MANY taxes the poor pay more for, like sales tax, unemployment insurance, property, etc). We don't like the idea of redistribution of wealth because we view poverty as a moral failing of sorts. That stems from an early American idea called "the Protedtant work ethic." The idea was that if our destiny is preordained by God, then those who are chosen to go to heaven will be shown favor on earth as well. So if you were financially successful, God loved you. If you were poor, it's because you weren't a good person. Theologically this has fallen out of style, but it has deep deep influences on how we view poverty.

I have no problem with Americans taking pride in pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Upward social mobility is something that our country has as one of our core principles. The BIG problem, however, is that we aren't nearly as socially mobile as we think we are. The influences of poverty run deep and last generations. I heard a study recently that the stress of poverty can even begin to alter genes, affecting descendants. Poverty causes many things - stress, poor health, and those things are hard to change even if you suddenly had more access to capital. The saying the poor get poorer and the rich get richer is a much more apt description of what our society is really like. The divide between the rich and poor is growing, not shrinking.

OF COURSE there are people who manipulate and misuse assistance. And of course there are people who break free from poverty and become wealthy. My problem is that these aren't representative of what's actually happening. Government programs work astoundingly well. Social security has decimated senior poverty. Food stamps have significantly reduced childhood hunger. Medicaid has eliminated medical bankruptcies. But conservative powers want us to repeat these narratives of social mobility, immoral people abusing the system, and perpetuate the myth of government inefficiency. It suits their needs, which is to reduce corporate taxes and income taxes on the super uber wealthy by villanizing the poor and blaming them for government spending.

I just think it's important to realize why we talk about some of these stories. It's intentional and is crafted and it's not always in our best interest.

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the nobility of recipients?

I just think in a civilized society there's a safety net. Some people will use it to climb high and just use it if they fall and others will use it as a hammock. But oh well, the only way to get people to climb high is to have a safety net.

@Maysprout: I agree too. I think it's a waste of time and money to try to "police" people receiving assistance. The majority of people only use it as needed and try to better their circumstances so that don't need it anymore. Of course there are going to be a few people that abuse the system, but it's not worth being overly restrictive just to catch a few bad apples.

@jedeve: yes! Thank you for expressing that so eloquently!

This thread seems to be calming down but I just saw it and wanted to share my thoughts re: abusing the system. Bare with me, this is going to be long.

Last year my life was wonderful. DH and I both worked full-time, 40 hour a week jobs. DS was in daycare, the bills were paid, though there wasn't much left after that. But things were stable. We decided to have another baby, after a few months of trying I finally got a BFP. Literally the next day after I got that, my DH lost his job. He was the breadwinner. I couldn't pay our basic bills (house, DH's car, gas, electricity, water) with my salary alone, we absolutely needed DH's income. Well, it took him 7 months to find a job. Seven. Months. of almost daily applications, even I was applying to places. I had a very difficult pregnancy that made me have to take almost two months off of work for home and then hospital bed-rest. I don't get paid time off, I don't have vacation hours.

We literally had no choice other than to apply for assistance. I couldn't pay the bills. I maxed out our credit cards, I had yard sales, I started an Etsy shop, I hustled my ass off and DH did all he could do to earn money from side jobs. We blew through our minimal savings in the first month, we couldn't live on my money alone. So I had to humble myself and apply for WIC and foodstamps. You have to go through an enormous amount of time, work, waiting and paperwork to get approved for these things. Not to mention reapplying, going down for wellness checks, etc every other month.

But you wanna know what? It was the *most* humbling experience of my entire life. I stood in the grocery store literally blinking back tears as I waited for the cashiers to ring up the free milk and bread that WIC gave my family. It's a slow, drawn out process that gives everyone in line behind you plenty of time to check out the contents of my shopping cart. And they did. Every time. People were burning holes into my head by staring at me and my groceries so hard because I looked like one of the Welfare Queens the entitled, privileged people complain about.

My dyed hair? My sister is a hairdresser and does it for free.
My iPhone? It's a company phone
Micheal Kohrs purse? It was a present from my mom for my 21st birthday.
Pregnant belly? Purposeful. When I got pregnant I could afford to do so.
At the grocery store in the middle of the day with my toddler? I'm not a SAHM living off the government, I'm having to take unpaid time off of work because I can't afford to send my child to daycare anymore and DH was doing a side job that made more than I would have at work that day.
Getting into my nice(ish) car? It's paid off, I did that when we were a duel income family.

I went home to my nice house I couldn't afford anymore, watched my big flat screen TV that I bought before I needed assistance, used my internet to apply for jobs, list my belongings on craigslist and work on my website I was trying to grow.

All that to say, next time you want to bitch about people on government assistance, just remember, there's more to their story. Being on assistance is not something you want to do, I know people who are on it and trust me, they don't want to be. No one wants to drive to a grocery store they don't usually go to because they're praying they don't run into someone they know when they're swiping their EBT card.

Basically, I hope for those of your who are so judgy, you never need the assistance you think is so taken advantage of. I hope you never know what it's like to cry in the parking lot of the grocery store because you couldn't afford to buy the meat your family needed so you were forced to buy a shitty frozen meal instead because it was $3 cheaper. I hope you never, ever have to know what it's like on the other side and feel the need to explain yourself to entitled people like you.

@MrsTiz: