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@MrsTiz: I'm truly sorry that in reading all of my comments never once did you see the numerous times I said over and over again how willing and supportive I am of helping people who need and want help. I dont think I could have made it clearer.
Its comments like these that make it virtually impossible to have discussions. I say one thing over and over again and people come on here and share heartfelt personal stories about how they were helped by programs and then slam me as though I said no one should ever get assistance. I said the exact opposite. I said I want people to get help - albeit I added some qualifiers and you can pick me apart for those....but not once did I ever imply that people in the situation you found yourself in should not receive help.
I also said that by fixing programs which are currently very poorly run by our gov't perhaps we could give more or better assistance to those in need.
But I understand that its easier to just read my comments, considered me an entitled conservative - project your views of my stereotype onto me and slam me because you think you know how I feel and what my opinions are - rather than actually READING what I wrote.
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@MrsTiz: Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story and I'm so sorry you went through all of this. Unfortunately, it's easy to think of people who need assistance as "others" and your story shows that the need for help could arise any time for any of us. I hope things have improved for you and your family and wish you the best of luck going forward!
ETA: I have kept out of the main discussion mostly because some of the attitudes really depress me. But I'm grateful for the group of commenters who show compassion in their responses.
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@MrsTiz: oh honey
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@MrsTiz: So sorry you have had to experience both the agony of not being able to provide for your family, as well as the pain of feeling judged for doing what you need to do. Stories like yours and a couple of other PPs are heartbreaking, and serve to reinforce my belief that modern societies need a social safety net. If DH or I lose our job, I can be assured of sufficient income to be able to provide food and shelter for our family for some reasonable amount of time, while looking for new work.
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@MrsTiz:
ALL of us could have the same thing happen, any day. And that's the problem with judging on "merit", because you never know the full story.
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@MrsTiz: Thank you for sharing your story. It often takes one unexpected event for a comfortable life to become one of discomfort and desperation.
There are always going to be people who abuse a system. That goes for the financially disadvantaged and the wealthy. There are so many unfair, preconceived notions and assumptions about assistance programs, and the individuals who benefit from them, short or long term.
While waiting for my DD's hand to be stitched up, I watched a mother being grilled on whether she was "sure she didn't any other form of insurance" when she attempted to hand her child's Medicaid card to an ER receptionist. Apparently she didn't "look" the part. She and her child were decently dressed; she had a nice handbag, her left finger sparkled. For all this rude employee knew, her family could have recently fallen on hard times, her child could have had a disability, or *shocker*, she could have just been your average, middle class Californian whose children qualified for MediCal. Depending on family size (in my state), your children *can* qualify, even if they come from that coveted six figure income home.
To answer the original question, higher taxes, more support programs. Because no one is immune from financial tragedy. An assumption otherwise is arrogant and sad.
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@MrsTiz:
@Mrs D: I'd hope you wouldn't feel that way. I saw her story more as the ONE opposing story to all "my neighbor lives on assistance and is a lazy good-for-nothing" stories people have shared here or have seen and not been so forthcoming about sharing. I think MrsTiz is the norm, the lazy moocher is the exception. You are of course entitled to thinking the system should be fixed (I agree), but I think stories like hers ARE important to hear.
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This thread is a breath of fresh air. Last night I spoke to the nobility of the recipients and the immense requirements and documentation necessary for people to qualify for these programs.
I also attempted to make a point about how many jobs do not pay a livable wage, and how those jobs are still important and necessary- how can this be remedied over time? That is one of the reasons I believe in high taxation in return for a safety net and increased services for all- not only to level things out a bit, but to prevent hardworking families from falling completely. Further, anyone in any position can experience tragedy through no fault of their own, and this is something I have seen time and again. A safety net could become necessary for anyone.
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@MrsTiz:
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@JoJoGirl: I get that - but the way she ended her comment was not appropriate. It implied that had had said she should not be entitled to support and I find that wrong.
For every "opposing" story I have read and seen first hand - I have also seen an equal number of offenders. I respect that you all have these stories about the people who deserve our help...I guess I am just unfortunate in that I have seen it abused equally as much. Not once, not twice, not even only 10 times. I have seen it abused as much as I have seen it used properly. Perhaps I have just encountered all the people who have abused it - and no others exist.
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@MrsTiz:
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Yes, totally agree that this is an eye opening thread and I enjoyed and respected ALL opinions on the matter.
@MrsTiz: Thank you for sharing this story! It's so true that we cannot possibly know one's story when all we see is a snapshot at one place, one time. I do hope that your family is doing better now
@Mrs D: I appreciate all of your honest thoughts/opinions, and thought that you were polite/civil throughout! I think it's just hard to explain ALL your rationale behind one comment ,etc so it's very easy to get misunderstood. Just the nature of all of this!
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@Mrs D: The people who use it properly probably never make it on your radar. People who abuse it are unfortunately blatant about it. People who use the system for what it's meant for are just trying to get by and you'd probably never know.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that is the way it is.
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This is also why we shouldn't make policy decisions based on anecdotal evidence
Lord knows that hasn't worked in the vaccine "debate". @jedeve, what kind of organization do you work for that conducts research on this stuff?
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@MrsTiz:
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@Mrs D: Out of curiosity, how did you know they were abusing the system? I guess what I take from @MrzTiz is that unless you sit down and review their bank statements and employment history, you can't really know? ETA I know you are a CPA so am fully assuming this is a possibility, which is why i asked
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@sorrycharlie: @.twist.: @yoursilverlining: @Astro Bee:
@Mrs D: I apologize, I guess I read just enough of your comments to form a premature judgement. I will say that I agree the government needs to have better teaching programs for people on assistance, but at the end of the day, it's expensive to implement and expensive to put to use by people who'd need it.
@meredithNYC: @yoursilverlining: That's what I was trying to say, though i've never been too good at making my points short and simple
A good question to ask yourself is that if you or your partner lost their job, how many months away from needing assistance are you? I'm sure a lot of people don't think of it that way but if one were unable to find another job right away, how long could you survive without help? I never, ever thought I'd find out the answer to that question, but shit happens.
@deerylou: I'll admit, I was one of those who did a double take at peoples grocery carts before or turned around when I heard "medicaid" in a doctors office to see what the person looked like. But now when I see stuff like that or things online about people who are getting assistance but "have a nicer house than I do, waahh wah" I get so mad. You have no way of knowing anyones story. DH and DS are clean cut, well dressed people who had to go grocery shopping and buy frozen dinners while I was in the hospital because DH was doing all he could to try and make money, take care of DS, come be with me while I was in the hospital and feed our son. Sometimes chicken nuggets are easier. Why should he be judged for buying them? You know?
Sorry, getting ranty again haha
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@.twist.: exactly the point in my ending comment to @mrs.d: , if I wasn't using WIC, just the EBT card, and you didn't look at the screen to see my total that flashed "EBT" you wouldn't know I was on it. I stood with my wallet closed, covering my card and held it when I swiped it so the entire card was covered before I immediatley threw it back into my wallet. Most people are ashamed to need assistance and do all they can to hide it. The people you see flashing it around are the exception, you'd be shocked to know who's getting assistance and is just good at hiding it.
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@MrsTiz: I think we've just been trained to think of recipients of WIC/Snap/Medicaid/Welfare in a certain, unflattering light. We take sensational stories out of the media, and allow that to paint a permanent picture of the whole population. I imagine very few individuals claiming to witness misuse of the system actually have first hand experience with said abusers.
@JoJoGirl: Same question.
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@MrsTiz: So true. This can happen to any of us, and there it's only a matter of how long you can last till your savings run out and what your employment situation is looking like!
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@MrsTiz: So much love mama. I had no idea you all were struggling.
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I'm always surprised by how many people say they've seen people abusing the system first-hand. Maybe I just live in some sort of bubble (though I don't think so, especially since based on our current income we're lower middle class and live in an urban area with lots of poverty) but I can't think of a single time I've seen someone abusing the system. Where/how are people seeing all this abuse?
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@MrsTiz: I really feel you. DH lost his job... twice, during this pregnancy! And his UE got denied, through no fault of his own. And it isn't just me, or you, I know many people who have had equal and worse!
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@IRunForFun: I don't believe them
If someone is actually committing fraud, that is a serious offense that the person holding the knowledge has a duty to report, otherwise *they* are considered to be committing fraud. I have seen one case unfortunately, that was very out of the ordinary and very extreme and involved career criminals, not a normal situation in any way- one unusual case, just one.
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@Mrs D: I get what you're saying but I just don't think it adds up. You support assistance but think there needs to be more controls. But numerous people have pointed out, jedeve especially, that there are controls in place and other controls like drug testing are inefficient. I don't think anyone is adamantly saying that there's no room for improvement. But your argument seems to be more 'I support assistance in some circumstances but since it's not perfect lets get rid of it.'
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@IRunForFun: I used to work at a grocery store as a teen and I saw a lot of people buying cart loads of pop ($300) on their EBT card with intentions of reselling it. I live in a very rural, poor area and that's the only thing I've seen first hand.
But of course for every one of those, there were 20 parents with kids in line with carts full of food to buy with their EBT cards.
At the time, the first type ruined it all for me and I had negative views about welfare. Of course I grew up and became a mother myself who would do whatever it took to keep my family fed and afloat and my perception of it changed.
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@Cherrybee: I have lived under both and prefer low tax/ make your own way. I say that as someone who has always had health insurance and a decent income while in the US so that colors my opinion which I totally get is somewhat selfish. I understand that people who don't have those advantages for whatever reason can suffer terribly in this system. But neither system is perfect - there is no such thing.
My preference is because I prefer to have a choice in how I spend my money and in a healthcare setting, I think that the US does better in a serious situation - not because the medical staff is better - but because resources are better - assuming you have insurance of course. It is definitely not the fairest system in the world but I prefer it.
(Plus, I don't have to listen to people constantly whinging on that they are paying for ' a flat for Mary and Joe who refuse- to-work' etc!) -
@MrsTiz: That was the best post I've read on all of these threads in the last few days.
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@MrsTiz:
Reading your post brought tears to my eyes and really strengthened my belief that we need safety nets for people.
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@Greentea: DH wasn't able to get unemployment at all! Gah I'm sorry mama, that's SO stressful especially while you're pregnant!
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@MrsTiz:
thank you for chiming in. I'm honored to call you a friend. As you know, teachers in NC are paid crap. I used to teach public pre-k here (for low income, at risk kids). A teacher, as sole income for their family, with 2 kids would qualify for this program. How messed up is that?!
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@meganmp:
@Adira: hi lady, how've you been?
@lilteacherbee: love yoooou! -
@artsyfartsy: to me that isn't a welfare thing but advertising being more effective than education. I stopped drinking soda like 20 years ago and my family thought I was crazy and making a big deal out of nothing.
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@MrsTiz: I get it and I certainly understand that when you are passionate about something its easy to read something or a bit of something and get frustrated and react - it just felt like it happened a lot on here where I tried very cautiously to present my views clearly. I just started to feel like the overriding opinion was that I am some terrible person who doesnt want anyone to get help - which is simply not the case.
@JoJoGirl: I would never judge a person using the system without knowledge of their circumstances to some extent. I unfortunately know several "friends" who have abused unemployment beyond words. I know this first hand from their comments to me - I suppose there is the possibility that they are lying about abusing it to look cool - but I guess I am taking their comments for "fact" if you will. I have in two different cities I have lived in been approached multiple times by women and men looking to sell me their 'foodstamps' in the form of I give them a list...they buy my groceries...I buy the items off them for cash. One time - I was so sick and tired of it (and in this particular case it was a woman with a child) I asked her what she needed the cash for. Best case scenario was she could have told me her child was hungry and I would have handed her the cash and/or (more reality in this case I would have purchased items for her and given them to her on the way out)....unfortunately she told me she "didnt owe me any explanations and could use the money however she needed"....I also have several close family/friends who misrepresent their "facts" to various agencies in order to qualify for support - as communicated by them while intoxicated bragging about the system they "work over".
Those are the examples that come to mind. Ignoring the three times (third time is the charm - I dont do it any more) have had homeless people who were begging outside restaurants refuse food I offered them instead of money. I understand these people are sick and not right in the head or not currently "all there".
And just last year after learning that a local grocery/gastation offers a "gas card" option which can only be used for gas...purchased $100 in extra gas cards for the family I adopted at Christmas (the program I participate in provides food and clothing)...it was not a part of what I was supposed to donate I just was excited about the idea of being able to offer them gas. In the thank you note I rec'd I was reprimanded by the "charity" for not just giving cash....I spoke to the woman because I was appalled I would be reprimanded for such a thing and she informed me that the family was upset when they tried to buy non gas items and were informed of the rules of the card...instead of an overwhelming THANK YOU I got reprimanded bc I gifted them free gas. Warm and fuzzies...
So yes, perhaps my experiences are the extreme and have tainted me...but that doesnt make my opinion any less valid...
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@Maysprout: I guess I was unclear. They were buying multiple cart loads of ONLY pop with the intention of reselling it so they would have cash to buy things an EBT card couldn't. They weren't using any of their EBT money to buy food for their families.
That's the only abuse I've seen first hand and I live in an area where there's probably more abuse than other areas of the country.
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@Mrs D: In regards to the gas card, what if the family didn't have a car?
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@IRunForFun: That was going to be my question too.
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Just chiming in to say how happy I am living in a "high tax/high government support country". Its not a perfect system (what is really?), but its pretty darn great here.
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@MrsTiz: Thanks so much for sharing
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@IRunForFun: I have thought the same...if the response would have been more polite and appreciative for all I did give them I would have swapped it happily. Also - in that case I would not have frowned upon the family at all for selling the gas card...
Lord knows that hasn't worked in the vaccine "debate". @jedeve, what kind of organization do you work for that conducts research on this stuff?
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