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@Adira: I will say I don't think Obama and Hillary are as similar as you are implying. On policy issues, yes, but on trust issues, no. I mean, even the democrats prefer Obama, that's why he beat Hillary in your primary in 2008. Now, I sure as hell don't think deleting emails or having bad judgment on using the personal server are anywhere near on par with wanting to deport every Muslim in America on the "disgusting scale". Thus, I'll vote for Hillary. But she's not the same as Obama.
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@Mrs D: I'm curious because you stated to @Truth Bombs: that your personal tax rate wasn't your highest concern, and that DOES seem to be the biggest concern of most of the non-religious Republicans I know. If your motivations are religious in nature (can never vote for someone who is pro-choice for example), then I could understand your stance a bit better. But you made it sound like those were perhaps NOT your motivations, so I'm curious what is, if it's not the financial burden you might endure under Clinton. You've said you've found her policies much scarier than Trumps, and since hers are similar to Obama's, I'm curious how you've felt these last 8 years under Obama's Presidency.
Most of the Republicans I know have admitted that, while they are Republican and don't agree with many of Obama's stances, they have not been negatively affected by his Presidency, except in taxes and health care costs, and that they believe Clinton would be similar. So they really do seem to be voting for Trump based on their tax rate.
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@Truth Bombs: Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that they are the same at all, just that their POLICIES were very similar, so we're unlikely to see drastic changes occur going from an Obama presidency to Clinton.
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@Adira: Fair enough. I just wanted to make the point that I could see why someone would have a harder time voting for Hillary than for Obama. But still, not when Trump is the alternative.
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@Truth Bombs: haha, yes, exactly! I totally understand why Obama won the nomination over Clinton in 2008. But when it comes down to Clinton vs. Trump??
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@Adira: I am fiscally conservative and do support lower taxes in general - however I do not think her tax plan has much impact to me individually (though I wish I was that wealthy). Religious beliefs in not my driver either.
I take major issue with HRCs plan to revitalize our economy - it sounds moronic to me. I do not support her views on trade - I truthfully think she seems very uneducated in business matters. I despise unions....she heavily supports and benefits from them. I do not support Obamacare - or anything like it. I do not support her views on college education - I can support pieces of it but not all of it. I support a much tougher immigration reform...nothing like that which she is proposing. All that said - I simply do not support most liberal policies and prefer smaller (much smaller) government.
I am socially fairly liberal and generally could not care less what you do in your home/life so long as it does not directly negatively impact me.
I get why so many people are appalled by him - I guess I cant explain it I just put more value on actions than words and to me I have seen so much ACTION from her that terrifies me. So far from him its been mostly words...
I realize most of you dont agree with me and may even be appalled by what I say. I'm sorry, but I wont change my opinion...
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@Mrs D: Thank you for clarifying your views. It's definitely helpful when having a conversation like this! And although I don't agree with many of your views, I CAN understand them and I totally get why you lean Republican and wouldn't support Hillary.
That said, I do still find it baffling that Trump's words don't bother you that much. And his past actions have proven how racist and sexist he is. For me, if I agreed with the Democratic nominee's policies 100%, but they spouted the hateful rhetoric that Trump did, I just wouldn't be able to vote for them. Even if they followed through with the policies they claimed to support and I 100% supported those policies, the kind of behavior would be such a turn-off and so detrimental to our country and alliances, that I'd just have to vote against that person!
ETA: But obviously we're different people with different values and you can vote how you choose! I just won't understand it.
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@Mrs D: how can Donald Trump do things like build walls and "toughen immigration" (our legal immigration laws and processes are some of the toughest in the world) without having big government. Who is going to put those policies into place, and who will enforce them? How will more closed immigration policies create smaller government?
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@Mrs D: just wondering - why do you dislike Obamacare so much? I will agree it's not an ideal setup - would much prefer a universal system - the ACA is actually originally a republican proposal if I remember correctly from my research. But as a primary care physician seeing the amount of people who have now been able to access mental health care, routine health screenings, birth control and just plain seeing a doctor was staggering. I would see patients who hadn't seen someone for a decade and some who had cancers undiagnosed. Even in my own family I've had family members who were finally able to afford health care plans to see the specialists they needed. What do you see as a better solution? My only beef has been that states had the option to expand Medicaid and some didn't - having moved to a state that didn't expand from one who did the access is not ideal. Come on Virginia!
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@Mrs D: Independent experts have said that if fully implemented, Donald's economic policies are worse for the economy than Clinton's. So which part of his economic policies are better than Clinton's? What am I missing?
"The experts in this case include Mark Zandi, a well-respected economist. He issued a report on Trump’s economic policies, which is where Clinton pulled that 3.5M figure from. The report stated that if Trump’s economic plans were fully implemented, 3.5 million jobs would disappear, incomes would stagnate, debt would explode, and stock prices would plummet. [1]But the report also said it was highly unlikely that Trump would get many of his plans approved by Congress, even if it is controlled by Republicans."
"His report also said that if Clinton were able to fully implement her economic plans, the economy would add an additional 3.2 million jobs during the first four years of her presidency. Combined with anticipated job creation under current law, that adds up to 10.4 million jobs. But the report said that Clinton would also face significant roadblocks to getting her economic plan through Congress, resulting in far fewer job gains."
https://www.quora.com/session/First-U-S-Presidential-Debate-September-2016/1
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@tlcbaby: thanks for that site. Signed up and covered.
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@mediagirl: Did you watch the Abe Lincoln video? It was hilarious, but the whole website is actually a very smart idea because the main arguments I've seen against people voting third party is that you are somehow giving your vote to whichever party the person using that argument doesn't like.
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@Anagram: @Mrs D: how can Donald Trump do things like build walls and "toughen immigration" (our legal immigration laws and processes are some of the toughest in the world) without having big government. Who is going to put those policies into place, and who will enforce them? How will more closed immigration policies create smaller government?
YES. -
This great article popped up in my newsfeed today:
http://www.scarymommy.com/hillary-clinton-myths-debunked/?utm_source=FB -
@Mrs D: Trump has had some very appalling actions actually... Trump University is being sued at the moment for being a scam, he has been accused of child (and adult) rape, he repeatedly doesn't pay his vendors, his foundation is used for him to pay off his legal bills (and buy giant portraits of himself?!) It goes on and on. What action has Hillary done that is worse than any one of these things?
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@Mrs.Someone: This article is great, thanks for linking it! Unfortunately, have you ever heard the saying "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts"? I think that's the official motto of Trump supporters.
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@erinbaderin: I think there's also the problem of Confirmation Bias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
It's basically the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirming one's existing beliefs. For example, if one believes that Hillary is corrupt and deserves to go to jail because of the email scandal, the fact that the FBI decided that there was no malicious intent and did not recommend pressing charges just proves how corrupt the whole system is and how far Hillary's reach is.
We are all guilty of using confirmation bias. It's important to recognize that it exists and try to make sure we're evaluating evidence for what it really is and not just for what we believe it is.
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@erinbaderin: hah, yeah good point. It's just so inconceivable that someone would vote for him, it's hard to let it go!
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@Mrs D: curious if tonight's news with audio of Donald saying he can do anything to women including grabbing them by the pussy had any effect on your plans to vote for him.
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@Truth Bombs: Sorry, I saw your comment but had a stupid busy weekend (family pictures and baptism for the little one) and didnt want to reply until I had read up on what all had happened.
Sort answer - no it does not change my decision to vote for him. (important to continue noting I do not say SUPPORT him...I do not support him...I vote for him only because I still refuse to vote for her, who she is and what her policies are/may be)
I find what he said to be disgusting. I also realize that men do talk in this manner in certain venues - still I do not support it, I just dont find it all that surprising. I have heard a handful first hand stories of other celebrities saying/doing awful things - acting in awful manner bc they are celebrities and can get away with it. I just dont find it to be that surprising that he would think this way.
Still I would never want my husband, father, etc to act and speak this way. But this statement does not change my opinions about his ability the be president. Actions speak louder than words to me...as I've said...
I'm sure I'll be attacked for this
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@Mrs D: I respectfully disagree that words are just words. Words matter, especially from powerful people. Words incite others to action. Words hurt, and words do real damage. While I can respect your political difference of opinion, and I feel strongly that you are entitled to your political viewpoints, because you (in the US) and I (in Canada) live in democracies, I urge you to not use this argument. Words matter. Words convince people that it's not a big deal to commit violence against another person.. See link below. On the other hand, words from powerful, great men and women have instigated some of the greatest social victories in history ("Four score and seven years ago...", "I have a dream...").
Just a thought. And I think you are brave for standing up for what you believe in, in the face of adversity, even if I disagree with most of what you say. Thanks for letting me chime in.
http://www.scarymommy.com/amber-tamblyn-shares-story-of-sexual-abuse/?utm_source=FB
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@Astro Bee: I apologize...I am not saying words dont matter - so I should have been more clear. In this case what I am referring to is words vs actions...Trump vs Clintons ... yes I know Bill Clinton is not running for President here but his actions over the years and Hillary's refusal to take a stand against it and in fact do the exact opposite and bully his victims speaks more volumes to me that what Trump was caught saying on a hot mic 11 years ago.
Just want to clarify that I did not intend to imply words dont matter. Just in this specific instance I find the actions of some more troubling than the words of others...
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@Mrs D: Fair enough. Apology accepted. However, I am concerned that this tape is merely the tip of the iceberg for Trump. I have read articles alleging that he had assaulted women (don't have them on hand, unfortunately). Initial divorce proceedings from Ivana allege that he raped her. There are reports of other assaults, as well. When someone admits to have assaulted people, do we not take them on their word? In court, an admission of guilt is admissible unless coerced (note, I'm not a lawyer). The Bill Cosby allegations started from a lot less than this.
I do agree with you that Bill Clinton's actions over the years are reprehensible, as are Hillary Clinton's statements against the alleged victims. However, I think we will see worse from Trump before we are done.
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