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Wow, I missed a shitload yesterday and it took me forever to get caught up....
I have noticed a huge change in tone over the past few months, mainly by a select few users and it's ALWAYS over the same old stuff. Like how many times can you beat a dead horse over SAHM vs WOHM and the whole "having more than 1 child is irresponsible if you don't have a bajillion dollars" threads. I am almost positive that the women on this board who are having more than 1 child are not homeless and unable to care for another child. I guarantee you they have shelter, food to provide, love, and all the necessities needed for a baby to grow and thrive. But the constant judgement and condescending attitude that a select few users have over this issue is just annoying. If you only want 1 child then fine, but don't judge other people for their family planning choices when we certainly don't judge you for spending a million dollars at baby gap.
I understand it's the internet and you can technically say what you want, but I think tone and respect go a longgg way if your choices/feelings differ from someone else's. I know I am guilty of sometimes not wording things the right way and coming across not how I intended, so it's def something to work on/think about.
I guess going forward we'll see how this all plays out. I love HB and really appreciate all the advice and information shared here. I think respectfully agreeing and disagreeing will go a long way if others share different views than you.
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@LovelyPlum: i hate the stay where you belong idea too - i just wanted to say i always loved how you stood out as being caring and encouraging to everyone on the ttc threads when i was still there and stop by to check on people in due date threads!!!!
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@Arden: in the dark right along with you! I have no idea what's going on and I have been around the last few days!
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@runnerd: thank you so much
I tried to make a point to do that because I view the collective wisdom of a group of women the most powerful feature of HB. I feel like it is totally counterproductive for every woman who is TTC, pregnant, or a mother to reinvent the wheel. I have friends, but we don't talk about a lot of these things. I have learned so much here and been encouraged through some tough stuff. Just trying to pass it forward -
@LovelyPlum: just wanted to pop in and say that I never felt like you were posting the wrong thing, or in the 'wrong' boards, or at the wrong times. Your support has always been heartfelt and appreciated (by me, at least, but I'd suspect from others as well). This next part is not to you, because you are doing this well
I feel like the key is knowing your audience and being appropriate, helpful and personal (to steal from mrs. badger's words
) So for example, chiming in with advice or support to a specific person at a specific time, rather than just being the first one to post on a thread (POAS/TTC 6m+/IF check-in, etc) saying "being a cheerleader!", etc. The first example shows me that you are actually reading along and know what/who you're supporting. The second example can come off as more insincere.
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@ValentineMommy: Um...yes, you would be missed. When you took a break after your miscarriage, I kept wondering "where's ValentineMommy!?!" I don't have a cult following either (I have a feeling I would be terrible at being popular) but you are a genuinely nice and passionate person (I can tell
) and that very much would be missed. I think, in general, hellobee would benefit from focusing on the fact that we have a huge group of kick-ass ladies as opposed to focusing on a select few.
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I've been thinking about this post, and have remained quiet during the storm yesterday. I've been wondering for a while what purpose hellobee serves for me. It used to be full of valuable information as we started ttc. We are nearing a year, and I'm honestly over the POAS boards. Some of the threads that are aimed at building community are starting to fall flat, and make the board feel stale. It's almost like a , "are you wearing socks today? Discuss!" There have also been an influx of condescending threads as of late. I'm all up for a good debate. However, some people start threads with the intent of being all patronizing to begin with. "Oh you don't expose your baby to 3hrs natural sunlight while listening to PBS in Spanish according to the XXXX guidelines!?!" The horror! Gasp, "You let your child watch tv at daycare!?!" And all the money threads. I have never felt the need to brag about how much money I make, or my husband makes, or what my last purchase was. But, I get it. Some people need that validation. But, it's gotten quite old. Meh, I'll pass.
Lately, there has been an attitude shift that has already been articulated, and captures how I feel. It hasn't felt very welcoming with certain posters and a couple (certainly not all) hostesses. As of now, I don't feel any particular attachment to the board, other than wasting time I could be reading a good book. I've been doing other things with the already limited amount of free time that I do have. I'm not expecting sunshine and rainbows, but being civil seemed to have gone out the window for a while there. Hopefully, the boards will turn around for the better. I think a lot of good hashing it out has been done.
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Dude...I've read all of this, and I am still confused. As ValentineMommy said, I could drop off the face of HB, and no one would notice. I'm kinda cool with that.
I guess I have never focused on the community aspect of HB because by the very nature of who I am, I am not the HB demographic. I'm a Black woman who is going to be 37 years old next month and had my first child at 35. I live in a big, expensive city. I grew up not well off with a single mother, yadda, yadda. There have been so many posts I've read on here assuming that you had two parents, grew up in a house, got married at 25, had a child before 30, own multiple cars, buy 4 bedroom houses for $100k, etc. When I read them or don't read them, I just shake my head and keep it moving. Many people here seem to have had similar life experiences to which I do not belong or can't relate to and that's cool.
I agree with others that I don't see some of the craziness being mentioned. I'm clearly missing something. I think there would have been beefs regardless of the post content. If people just don't like each other, then they don't. Some people have been upset and then just stayed that way towards other users. If they feel the need to leave, then they should.
I wish the boards were more helpful. I've stopped asking questions here because they are often ignored for a post about what people are having for lunch. Being a parent is so hard, and it would be nice if people could share wisdom and best practices. I understand that there are many who come here for conversation, and that's fine, but what I value HB for is the wealth of information it provides. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the crux of it anymore.
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@BKCaribBaby: I keep an eye out for your posts!
I usually got the feeling that your threads got a pretty healthy response though?
http://boards.hellobee.com/profile/bkcaribbaby/posts?started -
I’ve been thinking and thinking about this thread. Should I reply, shouldn’t I? What do I want to say? What should be left unsaid.
On the tone of the site:
Want my honest opinion? It’s one user who seems to have designated herself the ultimate teller of truth. I don’t think she even means to be horrible to people but she’s so blunt sometimes it makes my jaw drop. She said something to me the other day that stung initially but she was also kinda right so I got over it. Then there was a comment on the “crazy” thread that I thought was probably aimed at me (an “everyone should be one and done unless their life is perfect” style of comment) but meh. Whatevs. Apparently, she has decided to leave? There’s no need for that….. just, try not to be so harsh in your language!The ganging up and +1ing has to stop. I’m all for challenging someone when they have said something hurtful to someone, for example. But once it has been said everyone just needs to calm down – unless they have something useful - and additional - to add.
On not being agreed with vs being ganged up on:
I have agonised over whether to say this or not. Here’s the thing. Not everyone is going to agree with your choices and the key is to not get bent out of shape about that. Take the “crazy” thread. I was one of the posters who mentioned homeschooling. I understand that some people were upset and I am sorry for my part in that - I don't want to upset anyone. But in that same thread, forward facing before 1 was mentioned. I FFd my daughter at 9 months but it didn’t upset me to hear posters say they thought it was crazy. There have been entire threads on here dedicated to "how to tell friends how terrible FFing is without sounding judgemental" and scores of people talked about how appealed they would be if their friend did this..... but did I feel attacked or alienated? No. It’s never okay to personally attack someone but to disagree with them – that’s fine in my opinion. It guess it all just depends on how it is said.I’m going to leave it there. There’s so much more I want to say but ….. Let’s all just try to get along and move forward, yeah? I will do my part - be as welcoming to new users as possible, keep personal chats to wall posts and be mindful of some of the things I say.
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@Cherrybee: I agree with you on being ganged up on vs not being agreed with.
And honestly some of the, "I can't believe this person is gone! They were so great/supportive!" has me baffled. I've seen a few people mention how sad it was that runsyellowlites (not sure I spelled that right) left and how we need to be more supportive of crunchy moms, but uh...I was new-ish when she left, and I have a clear memory of the final incident that set off her leaving because it was the first time I saw a really ridiculous personal attack on this site - she came into a thread about c-sections, attacked a bunch of us about having/needing them, and said that elective c-sections are just as bad as drunk driving. Really? Drunk driving? So sorry ladies, but I don't always see it as a bad thing when people leave the site...
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@mrbee: I think it's more about what people seem interested in replying to--a question about your favorite pasta, Starbucks order, or celeb gossip gets a lot of replies. Maybe bc they're easy to answer.
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@mrbee: Aww, Mr. Bee! Thanks!
I guess what I need from this site is help with parenting and child care issues. I am sure everyone's Starbucks order is very interesting, but parenting issues matter to me most. Like I said, I am sure many people come here for general conversation, but I feel like I can get that elsewhere in my life.
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@BKCaribBaby: Good point! Will think some more about that... totally agree that parenting is the priority in terms of responses.
In the meantime, someone recently suggested we build a way for people to find posts with relatively few replies on it... hopefully this helps us get more answers on threads that need them:
http://boards.hellobee.com/topic/new-feature-threads-with-10-or-fewer-replies
Thanks for the inspiration!
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@Cherrybee: I agree with a lot of what you said. Although to me leaving isn't such a bad idea if this site and its goals for discourse just aren't for you. If someone wants to be able to be disrespectful, call names or generally obsess over other people's posts and lives then maybe a site like GOMI is a better fit for them. I don't understand why they would continue a presence here if that's the case but I won't miss them or the drama. If they just find it too contentious on here because its not a heavily policed site then maybe they would do better on a site like weddingbee where there is a bit more moderation. There are people that I found very interesting and I will miss them very much but some were just contributing to the problem by being overly sensitive or nasty and making personal attacks.
It's all very subjective stuff. I think that that is the reason that this is so hard to fix and it has become so polarized around here
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@wonderstruck: it's mostly a matter of opinion; I wouldn't have a home birth if you paid me- she and I had very differing opinions on lots of stuff. But that's not really what she said, even if it was a poorly chosen analogy.. It was just that, an analogy that you can't judge a decision'a soundness based on the outcome only. She was also repeatedly accused of lying about what her doctors had said; and who knows maybe she was. But most everyone else is given the benefit of the doubt.
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@scg00387: Since I wasn't very active on the site I don't remember some of the other things you're talking about. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, and I remember saying to her that I felt that was a poor analogy and giving her multiple chances to back down a bit, and she didn't - she pushed back harder and was crystal clear about the fact that she thought someone who chose to have a c-section was as irresponsible as someone who chose to drive drunk. And I'll be honest, someone who speaks to me that way isn't going to have my full respect, although I would likely choose to just avoid their threads.
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@wonderstruck: I like her. She and I had/have our differences, but we could always work them out respectfully, or agree to disagree. That was not always the case with other folks around here who seemed to turn grudge holding into an Olympic sport.
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Also, JBM and RYL aren't the only two who are gone from the AP side of things... I think they are just the two who stand out in people's minds since they could be outspoken. I can think of a half dozen others that I love who no longer post here, and I hope some of them make their way back at some point.
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@Boheme: Fair enough. Since I wasn't a regular on the site then and she left shortly after, it's just the one incident that sticks out in my mind - perhaps that wouldn't be the case if I'd frequented the site more often before then.
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@wonderstruck: I guess maybe I didn't follow the thread to it's end? Regardless; I do think it's a shame she left, but I would've if I were her too. I hope she found a more supportive group somewhere and wish I knew how her daughter is doing. The responses she got to some of the updates she shared were absurdly hostile, and it is bumming me out that I didn't say so at the time.
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@scg00387: Really? Besides the whole c-section/drunk driving issue, I don't recall people being hostile with her. And even in that thread, I thought most people were pretty tame. It seemed like they WANTED to give her the benefit of a doubt, but she really stood her ground with her elective c-section = drunk driving analogy, even after multiple people pointed out how it was offensive. Can you elaborate on the other issues that drove her away?
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@Adira: I guess I didn't go back and read the ending, I don't remember that. I'm not going to dig around for exact quotes but I can think of two separate snarky replies when she was talking about her daughters medical issues, implying that she was making it up and that doctors were infallible.
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@scg00387: Oh, I'm sorry, I must've missed those. I remember her posts about her daughter's issues, but I missed the snarky ones. I'm sorry that happened - she seemed really worried about P and it's definitely uncalled for to to bash someone going through a rough time.
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@Adira: Yes, the final straw for Runsyellowlites was what she felt was a personal attack regarding P's health and accusing her of lying. I actually like both the people that were involved and respect them both, but in this particular case I think Runsyellowlites was treated heartlessly. I'm not surprised she left, I would have left as well.
I do feel that the key "clique" group targeted AP parents and alternative styles. I considered leaving several times but haven't just because I really appreciate some of the members here and learn a lot. I've backed off posting however just because for awhile there I thought that I was being specifically poked at no matter what I said.
This isn't meant to be a pity party for AP parents, but I just wanted to point out that there has definetly been a change overtime in attitude towards the non-traditional parents on this board over time. I hope it can become welcoming to all parents again.
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@Arden: Thank you for clarifying that. I think I must've missed that post where she was being attacked! I remember her talking about P's issues and wishing her luck, but I think I missed some of the follow up and maybe that's where the attack occurred. Which sucks because she seemed really worried about just wanted some support, so it makes me sad that someone attacked her over that.
I feel like I've missed the attacks on AP parents, or maybe I just haven't been as aware of them because I don't really do AP and I'm not as involved in those types of threads. I think it sucks though if a certain style of parenting is feeling attacked. It seems like there's such a diverse group here on HB that I would hope everyone can get the support and encouragement that they are looking for.
@Arden: I'm sorry that you've been made to feel that way. I hope I haven't contributed to that.
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Gosh it has taken me about three days maybe to catch up... I saw a lot of references to a "parenting choices" thread and sensed users feeling as though they were the odd man out in HB , but I can't find that thread. Was it deleted?( I checked the help section and saw no request for deletion) I guess I'm trying to figure out the feelings of isolation for certain philosophies - like, was ther a lot of anti co sleep comments etc?- and am wondering if there's something I can contribute thread wise (like starting posts) if it's certain topics that pertain to me. I don't know if what I'm writing makes sense...
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@Adira: Thanks.
I have never felt that you were targeting people or bullying. It's actually a relatively small number if people I think are responsible for bullying, but because some of them were/are frequent posters, it seemed more apparent. I think the vast majority of the members here honestly want to contribute in a positive way.
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@MrsLilybugg: I can't find it now. I also can't find any public deletion requests so I'm not sure what's up with that. Maybe I'm just missing it.
Yes, cosleeping was one of the many things called "crazy" in the thread. It was a train wreck from the beginning but it sort of spiraled down into a fight about homeschooling and a lot of parents calling other parenting choices "crazy". Some contributors posted in a way that was completely benign and non-judgemental, but quite a few did not.
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@MrsLilybugg: I hate feeling lost, so I want to help you as much as possible.
I don't quite understand what you are saying. Can you ask a more direct question?
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@MrsLilybugg: @Arden: I deleted the thread at the request of the OP.
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@MrsLilybugg: I can't find the crazy thread either, so I think it might've been deleted. I know people can wall Mr. Bee to ask for threads to be deleted/closed, so that could be why it's not showing up on the Help page as a deletion request.
@Arden: Thanks. I can definitely see how if the people doing the bullying were just really active and popular, how it could feel like more than just a couple people. Plus it sounds like maybe they were getting a lot of "+1s" which makes it feel like you're being ganged up on when only one or two people are actually saying anything.
I hope our AP and other parents don't leave. I think the diversity is good for the site!
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@Raindrop: lol sorry! So
Lots of bees mentioned a "crazy parenting " thread and said they felt left out in that what they practiced was considered crazy by most but couldn't find that thread . And my think ig was , if the "crazy things" were what I practice, then maybe I can post threads about that (like bed sharing) to make them feel less isolated -
@Arden: I'm somewhere in-between mainline and AP, but even I felt offended by some of the comments and threads you're talking about. I think that the issue wasn't that there was a widespread attack on AP. That just didn't happen, so I don't think anyone should have that as their take-away. But like you said, there were a few people that disagree and they happened to be some of the most blunt and outspoken people on the boards. And exceptionally willing to pipe up whether they really needed to or not. And it felt at times like they had made it their mission to change the boards and the opinions expressed into what they defined as correct.
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@Arden: Yeah, I got the impression that that thread was SUPPOSED to be light-hearted and fun. Like people saying something like "I could never co-sleep or do cloth diapers" was supposed to be more like "I couldn't do that, but kudos to parents that can!" not "Parents that do this are CRAZY!" I think there were probably issues on both sides, with people not wording things well, but also people taking offense where maybe it wasn't meant? Though I'm sure there were also people who crossed the line from the benign to the aggressive.
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@Adira: Some posters were certainly lighthearted and non-judgemental, but others were quite harsh and pointed. Unfortunately it was one of those threads where you can see by the title that it's about to go downhill.
It's not just that one thread though, I've felt a slow but significant culture shift over the last two years or so from open and accepting to narrow minded and judgemental. I'd like to see hellobee move back to a more diverse and accepting community. I hope that happens now.
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@Arden: Yes, I can definitely see where a thread like that can go off the rails. But I do think some people probably have preconceived notions of what might happen and then read more into things than are there. If you start out on the defensive, you may be more inclined to feel attacked (general you, not Arden you). I do remember some of the homeschool comments were pretty harsh though.
I didn't realize some of the other topics were also be attacked.Do you feel like some of the people contributing to the bullying and judgement have now left Hellobee? Hopefully even just having this dialogue open will help and people will be more careful about their wording and try to be more accepting of different views (and just agree to disagree at times without all the bickering and snarkiness)!
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@MrsLilybugg: Ah well lucky it seems arden, adira and mr.bee seemed to have understood you.
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@Adira: Yeah I understand your point about coming in defensive. At the same time though, I think it skewed towards traditional parents.
For instance - I would never in a million years come into a thread like that and say "I think sleep training is insane, circumcision is wrong, and non-medically indicated inductions should be illegal!" Can you imagine the uproar if I did (I wouldn't, but still, imagine!)?And yet, there were comments in that thread saying co-sleeping is insane, homeschooling is wrong and should be illegal, and unmedicated/home birth/etc is crazy.
Do you see how those of us on the crunchier side could feel an unfair tilt against us?
I do believe the majority of the contributors here are open minded, but slowly I've felt like it's become more "accepted" to poke fun at alternative parents.
Edit: Yes, it seems some of the posters contributing to the bullying and targeting have left hellobee, but not all. Hopefully those of who are still here can take extra care in how we speak and make sure to treat all parents with respect.
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@Arden: Yes, I can definitely see your point. That thread was definitely skewed more towards the "traditional" parents, because while saying something like "I couldn't do cloth diapers (because I don't want to deal with the poop!" is fairly innocent in general, someone on the other side can't really say the same ("I couldn't do disposables!") because it automatically sounds judgmental and you would've been attacked for saying it. So I definitely see your point and hadn't really thought about it before!
I tried to make a point to do that because I view the collective wisdom of a group of women the most powerful feature of HB. I feel like it is totally counterproductive for every woman who is TTC, pregnant, or a mother to reinvent the wheel. I have friends, but we don't talk about a lot of these things. I have learned so much here and been encouraged through some tough stuff. Just trying to pass it forward 
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