nectarine / 2132 posts
@Cherrybee: oh so nicely said!! i completely agree! i love science too!
nectarine / 2085 posts
I think Pope Pius XII put it well:
"For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith. Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question."
(This is from the 1950 encyclical 'Humani Generis', but it's still relevant, I think.)
I believe in God and that God created the Earth and made humans in His image. The timeline of when all that happened isn't a critical piece of the story to me.
Setting aside the religious aspect, I don't think evolutionary theory by natural selection (at least as I was taught it in my highly secular school) is a satisfactory explanation for what we observe in nature. It has significant gaps that require at least as much of a leap of faith as the idea that Christ died for our salvation.
GOLD / wonderful pea / 17697 posts
@MrsSCB: My granddaddy was a minister and missionary who believed in evolution. Well, more intelligent design maybe? He believed that the Big Bang and everything after that happened, but that God caused the Big Bang.
kiwi / 549 posts
Absolutely, I believe in evolution, and I'm a Christian-- I'm a practicing, believing Roman Catholic. The Church has said that the beliefs are not at all at odds with each other, which is how I felt long before the Pope/Vatican said so.
"If man were merely a random product of evolution in some place on the margins of the universe, then his life would make no sense or might even be a chance of nature," he said. "But no, reason is there at the beginning: creative, divine reason."
Roman Catholicism has said that evolutionary theory are not necessarily at odds. A Christian can, for example, accept the theory of evolution to help explain developments, but is taught to believe that God, not random chance, is the origin of the world. The Vatican has previously warned against creationism, or the overly literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation."
I interpret that to mean that yes, evolution and the Big Bang and all that happened, but that God was the spark behind it all. I mean, something had to set everything in motion. That, to me, is probably the biggest reason I believe in God to begin with.
(Quote is from this article: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=41159 )
persimmon / 1328 posts
@runsyellowlites: do you remember what some of the animals that defy evolution are? I am really curious! My dissertation is on a classic example for how evolution could not work to form complex traits and I'd love to look into these evolution defying animals!
pomelo / 5257 posts
@FutureMrsMcK: I don't know for sure because I haven't asked (though maybe now I will!) but I have a feeling what my dad believes is also along those same lines
pear / 1723 posts
Evolution via natural selection occurs all the time, in every part of the animal kingdom. It is the reason why certain useful traits and behaviors exist in certain populations. To me, it's not something to 'believe' in, it's something that has been observed via the scientific method countless times over hundreds of years. Whether you 'believe' that long-term evolution is the source of humankind as we know it, is the issue that's debatable.
That said, I am a Christian who believes in a God who has created many complex processes to order our world, and evolution is one of them. Am I naturally curious about the origins of our environment? Of course! Do I understand even a small fraction of the natural or technological process that I observe or use on a daily basis? Heck no. As a scientist, I'm willing to admit that I don't know. Nobody has a definitive answer on the origins issue, nor will we ever in this life.
I love this Carl Sagan quote:
“Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both.”
coconut / 8234 posts
@MrsScallop: I have a problem with the use of the word "believe" too.
@MerryC: Oh man, I love that quote. Love Carl Sagan.
pear / 1992 posts
@MerryC: YES. yes. yes. Thank you for that beautiful quote. It is wonderful that both yourself as a Christian and someone like me (an atheist) can find the same sentiment to be very meaningful.
I find deep, inspiring beauty in the processes of life/nature/the universe. When I think about the fact that we (as I believe it) have randomly come to be from the most basic of elements I am more humbled and in awe than if I think about us being designed and placed here intentionally.
coconut / 8305 posts
@MrsScallop: One is the giraffe & it's heart/vessel system through it's neck! Basically without all the components having been there from the start we would've had alot of giraffes "blow their brains out" (how they said it in the doc) everytime it went to drink water! There was also a beetle that sprays some kind of something from it's bum (without all the components it would've continuously blown itself up from the power). Those two are the only ones I remember.. it's been awhile since I've seen it.
coconut / 8472 posts
I am not religious and believe in evolution, dinosaurs, and that the world is somewhere in the neighborhood of billions of years old.
I do not believe the Old Testament when it says the world is 7 days old, just as I don't believe it when it says we can sell our daughters into slavery (exodus), that eating shellfish is an abomination (leviticus), or that it's ok to own slaves (leviticus) and to beat them for misbehavior as long as you don't damage their eyes or teeth.
persimmon / 1328 posts
@runsyellowlites: thanks! I need to look into the arguments for those more as I haven't heard them before.
blogger / wonderful cherry / 21628 posts
I believe that God created the earth. I also believe that species have had to evolve, so I believe in evolution too.
pomelo / 5257 posts
@runsyellowlites: But let's say giraffes evolved to have longer necks from shorter ones (which I think is the common belief). As their necks got longer, wouldn't it make sense that they would evolve the structural systems to support the longer necks?
coconut / 8305 posts
@MrsSCB: It's not about the structural aspects like being able to "hold" their neck, rather the way they're heart is made to pump blood through their body & how that force would have caused fatal outcomes the first time it put it's head below the heart...... I'm not proficiently versed on what would "signal" something to evolve, but I would think there would be a lack of relayed information to the dna if they died immediately due to the problem. lol
That is just one example though... the doc has 3 parts so there are a number of them!
coconut / 8305 posts
@MrsScallop: Oh, the horse is another one!!! Also having to do with it's heart, how it pumps, and how their hooves/feet are designed.... so that they're blood doesn't pool in their feet!
persimmon / 1223 posts
@MerryC: Love Carl Sagan - thank you for a beautiful quote.
As an athiest I am definitely on board with evolution.
eggplant / 11824 posts
@runsyellowlites: Darwin addressed the giraffe issue back in the mid 1800's. If both the neck and the heart evolved gradually, as well as the valves, etc. there is no issue. Say the neck grew an inch longer, and the heart needed to pump x amount more blood to compensate. Those giraffes whose hearts didn't compensate over generations would have died, those whose hearts evolved to compensate for the new length survived.
coconut / 8305 posts
@yoursilverlining: Didn't know that! Neat!.. I wonder about the others..
on a sidenote: I've also heard that Darwin retracted his stance in his old age, and in his original theory set up certain requirements that would've needed to prove themselves in a said amount of time to have validated his proposition... It's been a long time since I've really touched on it though so I don't really know the details.
GOLD / papaya / 10206 posts
I'm just fascinated by this thread!
I'm firmly in camp evolution, and I also don't subscribe to any religion and don't really believe in God.
coconut / 8305 posts
@yoursilverlining: Okay.. I just went and looked up Darwin's explanation of how we got giraffes! From the part I read I saw it explain how the species wouldn't have starved (neck grew to reach the tree leaves), but it didn't touch in about it bending to drink water. And what about not finding any intermediate forming link?.. seems like only a partial explanation/backing with alot of assumption (that the heart valves would've formed simultaneously to lower b/p upon lowering the head). I do think it's pretty neat he hit on them though!
pear / 1571 posts
Nope. I'm a Christian and while I totally agree that God could have used evolution in His creation of the world, I believe that He spoke everything into being in 6 days and rested on the seventh. And that it happened within the last 10,000 years or so. And I totally believe in dinosaurs, lol.
coconut / 8430 posts
I believe in evolution, dinosaurs and that the Earth and universe are billions of years old.
pomelo / 5257 posts
@yoursilverlining: Just what I was going to say! Evolution doesn't happen in one generation -- it's not as if there were short-necked giraffes that suddenly gave birth to ones with long necks. Any mechanisms necessary to keep them alive with a long neck (blood vessel structure, etc.) would have developed as gradually as the neck developed.
eggplant / 11824 posts
@runsyellowlites: "And what about not finding any intermediate forming link?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this....do you mean the lack of fossil evidence of giraffes mid-evolution (different sized hearts, etc.)?
pear / 1799 posts
@mrbee: I'm a spiritual person, and believe there's a force in the universe that helps my life compass stay on track ... with that said, I definitely believe in evolution. I was a biology major in college, and I learned a lot about the physical side of evolution, and that was the 'proof' I needed.
pea / 10 posts
I agree with the gallup poll that the more educated you are the less likely you are to believein creationism. However, the only proof I need was given to me a few years ago when I saw the Jesus Pony. Please image search in google if you have not been enlightened by this revelation of historical fact.
Trolling aside, generational changes occur frequently in both large and small creatures and that cant be denied.
persimmon / 1328 posts
@runsyellowlites: thanks for letting me know about these examples! As a student studying evolution, I really should know about these...
Since you mention you were unsure about this, I do want to point out that there isn't a signal to evolve. Random changes occur when DNA is replicated that creates new traits. If these changes are beneficial for any reason, they are more likely to be passed on to the next generation than any less beneficial traits because they help the animal survive easier and/or make more babies. Thus, over time, the proportion of organisms with the new beneficial trait increases, meaning the population has evolved (changed over time). This is evolution by natural selection, but it isn't the only way that something can evolve. I hope that makes sense!
nectarine / 2667 posts
@FutureMrsMcK: I'm loving this civil discussion too!
@MrsScallop: my first thought too was that, evolution is a process that happens - its real! I agree that how human life began could be open to interpretation.
I'm like 98% sure that humans evolved on their own. I wasn't there, I can't be sure, but the science as I understand it is compelling to me. I believe in the timeline of dinosaurs coming before humans & the age of the Earth/universe as billions of years old.
@MerryC: I'm not religious in an organized way, but that Carl Sagan quote is it for me. My husband works in nature & we both feel that sense of wonder for how the world works. Especially as I grew a child INSIDE OF MY BODY. It's amazing and normal all at the same time (all mammals do that, it's no big deal). We're just not convinced that an omnipotent being has a hand in all this.
coconut / 8498 posts
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. I'm more prone to believe that it happened in 6 24 hour periods, that the earth isn't very old, and that dinosaurs did exist. I also think evolution fits into that in some forms.
cantaloupe / 6164 posts
I believe in a literal 6 day creation by a amazingly powerful and loving God. I believe in a young earth. I believe in same-species evolution by natural selection. That is, I don't believe in evolution in the broad definition that everything that exists came from some long-ago cosmic cloud, but I do believe that a created world has adapted & evolved. And, I believe that dinosaurs & people co-existed... I'm super jeal I didn't exist then. I love me some dinos.
I actually when to Liberty University (gasp!) & took an entire semester-long course on creation vs. evolution. It was super interesting -- very scientifically based. The instructor wrote a book called 'Unraveling the Origins Controversy' -- it's pretty short & worth the time if you're interested in learning more about 'creationism.'
cantaloupe / 6669 posts
@MerryC: That is beautiful (both the quote and your own words)!
cantaloupe / 6730 posts
@FutureMrsMcK: I am in complete agreement with your granddaddy.
I support the theory of evolution, and I also believe that God created the world (I just don't think his days are the same as mine). For that matter, maybe he created other worlds with aliens on them and told all of us the same creation story and just used the term "day" to make the story relavent to everyone. Who knows?
I'm a scientist and the more I learn about science, the more it makes me think that God is so incredibly amazing to come up with the mechanisms that are in place. It's like he made us to be super-curious and gave us great puzzles to figure out.
blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts
Of course I "believe" it. The weight of the evidence is irrefutable!
It's only a "theory" because scientists are so careful with what they consider proof. I once wrote a paper about the compatibility of god and evolution and how intelligent design could really just be all about god setting up the laws of physics and putting the big bang into motion.
It's rocket science, in a way!
cantaloupe / 6885 posts
I definitely believe in evolution (biology major). I also consider myself a Christian but religion (United Church of Canada) is very liberal and its beliefs match almost perfectly in line with mine.
coconut / 8305 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: Doesn't the argument of Intelligent Design (totally aside from religious belief) refute Evolution?... Not in the sense of adaptation within a species, but all coming from one original species?
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