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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Agreed. I really wish that people would stop automatically blaming these incidents on mental health. Is that sometimes the case? Yes. Is it always? No. There is no record or history of this man having any mental health concerns, treatment, etc. Clearly, something made him do this, but to immediately say he's a "sick individual" with mental health issues just perpetuates the stigma that mental illness is scary and that people with mental illness are dangerous.
Also, I'm SO ANGRY that Trump has yet to acknowledge this for what it is - domestic terrorism. Why hasn't he called this man a terrorist?
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@littlebug: I suspect this was a rhetorical question but just in case, it's because he's white. White men are mentally ill. Brown people are terrorists.
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Someone just posted this comment on a WaPo article and I think it sums up my feelings on this exactly:
"I believe that what we have to do is to stop trying to identify what was wrong as a means of stopping these things from happening. Of course we're going to try to understand why a particular person did something - but that's not, in and of itself a solution to people killing others with guns.
We have to acknowledge that some people are going to commit terrible acts and they will 'find' a reason to do so. We can't identify every person in the US who is going to do these things - so trying to 'stop' whatever supposedly made them do this isn't a solution. After all, a lot of these people appear normal to others. It's not like they're wearing a sign that says - "Hey, I'm about to go kill my coworkers or my exwife or a whole bunch of people at a concert."
That leaves us with only one thing we can effectively focus on - the guns and weapons. We need to regulate them just like we do driving/flying/ practicing medicine - actually virtually anything that could cause harm in the hands of the wrong person.
We can't stop everything - but that's no excuse for not recognizing that we can do a lot to thwart this kind of thing and we should be doing it. We have to recognize that there IS no good reason for a person to collect an arsenal of semi-automatic or automatic weapons or to be able to modify guns into weapons that are solely designed to kill people - lots of them.
No one is taking guns away from law-abiding citizens - but we sure can make sure they 'are' law-abiding citizens and trained and certified and we can make sure that some types of guns just are not sold. And we can make sure that someone doesn't amass an arsenal over a number of years.
It IS the only thing we can do and we must do it. Saying 'it won't stop gun violence" is a cop-out We don't say that about drivers or their vehicles. We don't say that about our doctors or the people flying our planes. Why use that pathetic excuse on lethal weapons?"
By user Ellie59 on this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/10/03/as-las-vegas-grieves-investigators-struggle-to-piece-together-the-motives-behind-shooting/?utm_term=.77120df58ef2
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@erinbaderin: Definitely rhetorical. I know the answer. I'm just so disheartened by it.
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@josina: Ugggh what is wrong with people. Everything has to turn into a platform for something else. And what was Jason Aldean supposed to do if not run and hide?! I get why a lot of people are angry.... But please, for the sake of those who are mourning and grieving, please do/say constructive things...
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@snowjewelz: Yes! I heard a reporter ask during a press conference if Jason Aldean could have saved lives if he would have said to take cover before running off stage.
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@littlebug: Agree with this so much.
Also, our government is putting in a ton of time and money to solve the issue of "voter fraud" which is not even a widespread issue. Why can't they spend even a fraction of the time solving this issue, that actually IS an issue?
Also rhetorical - I know why: The GOP cares more about their NRA donors than American lives.
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I am a gun owner. My father hunts. My husband hunts. My brother and I enjoy target shooting. My husbands family hunts and target shoots. I was raised around guns and when handled properly they are not scary.
That said, I would give up every single gun I own for events like this to never happen again. While taking away all the guns is an extreme example, I don't see how anyone, even gun owners are NOT on board with more strict gun control. How is it even an argument?
Sure, I have hobbies that involve guns, BUT MY HOBBY WILL NEVER BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN SOMEONES LIFE. Someone's son, daughter, brother, sister, mother, father... I can't wrap my mind around people who think their desire to own, carry, use a gun trumps the safety of the American people.
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@theocdmama: Thank you for this! I just can't wrap my brain around the fact that so many people seem to think that their right to own a gun is more important than someone else's ACTUAL LIFE. What is that?!
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@littlebug: I don't get it. Especially after tragedies like this. The safety of our people is at stake- we need to stop this left vs. right debate and DO SOMETHING. Something has to change and gun laws are a good place to start.
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This is so horrible. I really don't understand how the NRA has so much power. How does this keep happening? To me this is about gun control. restricting gun ownership altogether or even just magazines.. whatever it takes. I'm for it.
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@theocdmama: Thank you, it's nice to "meet" a sensible gun owner. Sometimes it feels like there aren't many... mainly the arguments I've seen from other gun owners in the past day are:
"Gun control won't help, criminals will get guns anyway." Oh, well in that case, let's just not have any laws at all! I mean, do people really think the threshold for enacting a law should be, "Does it prevent all of xyz type crime? No? Then don't bother."
"Gun control will just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to buy guns." So what? Even if it's a little more complicated or it takes a bit longer, you'll get your gun eventually. Are you really saying that a little more inconvenience for you is not worth saving lives?
I just don't understand how any sane person can see how the system is working now and not think we have to do SOMETHING. And I also have yet to see anyone explain why other developed countries have much lower rates of gun violence if it's not due to more gun control.
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@MrsSCB: Yup- I hate all those arguments too. And the uninformed gun owners who spew them.
Who cares what red tape you have to go through to get a gun? Who cares how long it takes or how difficult it is? If you really are a law abiding citizen there is no reason to not want better gun control. -
One tweet I've seen that really encapsulates my feelings contrasts how gun ownership is seen as a "right" whereas the medical care for the victims is somehow a "privilege." (I'm paraphrasing). Completely infuriating.
Also this (excuse the language): https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/things-more-heavily-regulated-than-buying-a-gun-in-the-united-states
Also agree with posters before that blaming "mental health" is a cop out, especially when we have no idea whether the shooter actually experienced any health issues. I very much think our country should devote more resources to mental health, but blaming it not only stigmatizes others who seek help but it places the blame on individuals rather than systemic, societal forces that are actually at play: domestic terrorism/white male entitlement/fragility, access to guns, etc
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@MrsSCB: It's like the people who complain about all the security in airports. Well, your alternative is your plane gets hijacked. Or worse. Soo...yeah, I'm willing to stand in a line that might take a little longer and take my shoes off and do all the other inconvenient and annoying things I have to do if it means that I'm that much safer in the air.
@nana87: I saw that on facebook and it absolutely resonated.
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This sums it up for me. Heartbroken that this keeps happening over and over and over but have no faith in the system to get us out of this mess.
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@Mrs. Tiger: Yes, this exactly. If we did NOTHING after Sandy Hook, I know we'll do nothing now.
The only thing we can do is vote out the NRA-controlled GOP and vote for members who actually will DO SOMETHING.
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The problem I have and can't see how to solve is that the NRA contributes so much money to certain candidates. This allows them to put ads on TV and newspapers, which reaches a lot of voters. Those candidates then get elected and are not able to vote for gun reform because they have been bought by the NRA and they care more about re-election. It's not clear to me how to get the NRA at the source of their funds. Does anyone know where they get all this money to donate to candidates?
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@looch: They get a lot of $$ (tens of millions) from the gun manufacturers, who make serious bank every time there is a mass shooting and every time they can claim that Obama/<insert Dem here> will “take away your guns!”. They also get millions from individual donations; donations soar after tragedies like Sandy Hook and Las Vegas (which frankly, is just sick). They also sell advertising space in newsletters, generating millions. The NRA’s success is directly linked to the success of the firearms manufactures and associated businesses and vice versa. People who think the NRA support individual’s freedoms and not the corporate firearms industry’s bottom line are being duped.
What’s interesting to me about people who cling to the NRA and the Second Amendment is that the NRA itself never argued that the second amendment protected an individual’s right to own (without restriction) weapons until very, very recent history. This NRA was founded in 1871 and for more than 100 years, as an organization didn’t argue that the second amendment called for such broad protections on an individual’s right to own firearms.
In fact, the NRA did not protest when Congress and states passed strict gun control laws in the 1930’s. The NRA helped draft and supported the passage of the federal 1968 gun control act (although NRA leadership did lobby against *some* parts of the law; but not the legislation itself/in whole). Can you imagine? So what changed?
In the late 1970’s a faction of the NRA begun to argue that the second amendment didn’t have anything to go with well-regulated state militias (which it, on its face, plainly does) and instead that individual citizens were guaranteed access without restriction to guns and firearms. They began to lobby the GOP members, and what do you know – those lobbied $$$ politicians began to suddenly make the same arguments. Follow the money.
In 1991, the very conservative SCOTUS Chief Justice Berger said that the “individual right” reading of the second amendment was “a fraud perpetrated on the American public by a special interest group” – then speaking about the faction of the NRA. A conservative speaking like that today? How quaint, right?
2008 brought us the Heller case, which underpins the "individual" argument, and 2010 brought Citizens United which allowed the NRA for example, to spend $21 million to get Trump elected and nearly that much to run ads and materials against Clinton. Almost $40 million on one election. All strings attached.
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So - real question here. I always hear people comment about the NRA and their ability to have politicians in their back pocket. I'm seeing similar comments here - so I am hoping someone can point me to their research to back up such comments.
Reason I ask...like most of you I have my trusted sources for facts. Ben Shapiro is one of them for me. I understand the majority of you will likely not like him - and I too disagree with him on several topics - but I do value the way he speaks directly and with facts. I have always found much of what he says to be factual. And when he does make an error he is usually quick to own up to it.
So when I was reviewing his recent article regarding Jimmy Kimmels speech...he made this comment:
” The NRA is not among the top dozen spenders in the American political system. The NRA does not give a lot of money to politicians. The NRA is a very powerful force because there are millions of people who are members. Millions of people. The reason the American people are not willing to elect representatives to repeal some of their Second Amendment rights is because we’re not willing to do that, not because the NRA is bribing people. "
On face it made sense to me...and as I mentioned he is someone I trust with delivering facts...so I know some of you ladies out there are good with doing thorough research...wondering what you have found about NRA contributions? I'd like to read it...
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Before I get attacked for anything - I am a firm supporter of stricter gun laws. However I also believe that even stricter laws...basically anything short of complete gun confiscation will not stop someone like this.
I think @theocdmama: statement is a great one...I just dont see the majority of gun holders being willing to give their guns up. And I am not sure they should have to. I just dont know what the compromise is...
I dont think there is any one solution to the problems facing our country today. I think the answer lies in a combination of things...
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I heard on the news today that the Vegas shooter bought 33 guns in the the last YEAR and it didn't raise any red flags anywhere. Guys, this is the state of our society. The people in power prioritize the "right" to do this without restriction over hundreds of innocent.
Sure, maybe you hunt or you want a gun for protection or you like going to the gun range. But how can anyone in today's society justify the utter lack of regulation around this?
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@Mrs D: This is an old Fortune article from 2015.
"According to OpenSecrets, a site that tracks money in politics, the NRA spent $984,152 on campaign contributions during the 2014 election cycle. It also spent more than $3 million on lobbying in both 2013 and 2014. The NRA also spent $28,212,718 on outside political contributions during this period, which includes ads paid for directly by the NRA. That makes it the tenth biggest spender when it comes to such political spending."
And an NBC news article after Orlando's shootings:
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/nra-s-political-influence-far-goes-beyond-campaign-contributions-n593051 -
@Mrs D: Direct campaign contributions aren't the whole story. So it's easy for Shapiro to say "the NRA doesn't give a lot of money to politicians" because things like lobbying and media campaigns aren't direct contributions. Here are some more details for you on actual numbers. Ben Shapiro manipulates the facts and only tells the part of the story that he knows his listeners want to hear.
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=d000000082
But regardless of the money... Shapiro is making a HUGE leap to say that all members of the NRA are against tighter gun control. PLENTY of smart, responsible gun owners are in favor of common sense gun laws. Furthermore, shouldn't we expect our elected officials to be moral, educated humans who make decisions for the safety and well being of this country even if Joe and Sally gun owner are too blinded by their love of their guns to see the value in doing so? I'm all for democracy, but not at the expense of data and facts and HUMAN LIVES.
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@Mrs D: I agree, the amount of guns floating around is staggering. I am responsible gun owner- locked in a safe with the key in another safe. I'm pro gun reform, stricter laws, etc. We have the most amount of guns and the least amount of regulations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms
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So SuperPacs, then, is how they are able to donate their money?
What's the NRA membership? 5 million according to Wikipedia, but the number seems stale, not sure if there is a more recent figure? As a percentage of the population of the united states (325 million), it seems that a small subset of the population has disproportionate stranglehold on the ability to make change.
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(I'm pretty anti gun all around but this is interesting)
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Here are a couple more links with information about NRA contributions to congresspersons' campaigns. It's pretty staggering. The first link breaks it down, state by state, rep by rep. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/nra-donations/
The second link shows you the rep's campaign contribution along with their sympathy tweets after the shooting. I realize the second is rather inflammatory, but we need to get real and start holding our congresspersons responsible. Actions matter, not words. https://splinternews.com/every-member-of-congress-who-took-money-from-the-nra-an-1819059582
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There is so much disconnect about what actually needs to be done re: gun control. Politicians don't know and most level-headed responsible gun owners don't know. You can regulate sales at gun shops and through dealers but how do you manage private party sales and the "black market"?
It's such a tough thing to tackle. I would be interested to hear what you all think needs to change (specifically).
FWIW I am definitely in support of tightening up laws and regulations.
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@Foodnerd81: That article was really interesting...I agree that the number of deaths from mass shootings is probably not that large a percentage of total deaths from gun violence. And while I do think it's of course important to address the things that actually cause the majority of gun deaths, for me the mass shootings seem emotionally so much worse because they seem so random and cause so much death and trauma at once.
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@hilsy85: I think the mass shootings seem so much worse because with the others,it's easier to convince yourself it could never happen to you- I'm not in a gang or violent area, not in an abusive relationship, so I'm safe, but the mass shootings... it could just happen to anyone.
And generally the argument that these laws won't fix the entire problem so why bother? Well, if it's a start, it's worth bothering!
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@mrskansas: I think thats where I am...I know something needs to change...I just dont know where you start?
And I worry about our gov't ability to put forth clean, straight forward, common sense laws regarding guns.
I truly think the environment in this country is at a point of being able to tackle gun control - I just wonder if politicians (on both sides) can get their heads out of their asses long enough to pass something meaningful that isnt filled with a bunch of other bullshit...
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@Foodnerd81: yes exactly...you nailed how I felt about it. It really is like domestic terrorism. and even if it doesn't on the whole cause that many deaths compared to other gun violence, I think allowing these events to keep occurring definitely strikes at our sense of safety and just degrades the spirit of the country.
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@Foodnerd81: Yes, you nailed it.
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@Mrs D: @mrskansas: here are some ideas:
https://www.salon.com/2013/02/06/common_sense_gun_control_even_the_nra_should_back_this/none of these are new ideas. They're not revolutionary. Yet any time they are brought up, the NRA gets up in arms. There are PLENTY of good ideas out there, but people have to be willing to work together.
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@hilsy85: I do think its a bit simplistic to put the ideas out there and be like "here these would work"...obviously. But there are a lot of hurdles to get there.
1) Write a bill that common sense people can support - I actually think this is the easiest step. Its pretty clear...Keep guns in the right hands...require training....re-certification periodically...restrict certain types of guns and/or modifications to guns. I think most level headed individuals can and would agree to that. But first - all people need to be educated on guns, gun terminology, etc. If we arent all speaking the same language we wont get there.
So thats great...now you have to get it through the House and Senate without politicians doing what they do best and taking a VERY simple and straight forward plan and mucking it the F up. Its basically what they are paid to do. Both sides.
Then you have to find a way for the gov't - possible the worst and least efficient enterprise on the planet to execute whatever it is the bill sets out.
I'm not saying by any means that I do not support the initiation of this process...I just think its going to be a LONG road...by no fault of reasonable people everywhere....and in the mean time we all need to be doing what we can do that promotes immediate reactions/effects to be good people. Impact change where we can immediately.
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I'm so damn sick of these people blasting all over facebook "prayers for vegas"...I get it...we all get it...everyone (well nearly everyone I assume) was devastated by the news Monday...
But how many of those people do you think actually did anything? Even prayed? Is it just me or is it people just put that out there on FB to put up their persona..."here I said I am praying...I'm a good person"...
Just shut up...dont post anything on facebook...just do something...
Sorry total rant...I apologize for digressing...
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@Mrs D: honestly that sounds like a cop out. Like you are excusing politicians from taking action bc you assume they are inefficient, and therefore gun reform isn't really going to be that possible or effective. Many DO want to enact change, but unfortunately their hands are tied by those politicians who are held hostage by lobbies like the NRA. Things like background checks are really not that complicated at majority of Americans support them. Who doesn't? The NRA and politicians that are in its pockets.
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@hilsy85: Except that I said "I'm not saying by any means that I do not support the initiation of this process...I just think its going to be a LONG road...by no fault of reasonable people everywhere....and in the mean time we all need to be doing what we can do that promotes immediate reactions/effects to be good people. Impact change where we can immediately."
So ya - I'm agreeing with you. I'm stating I think its going to take a while so in the meantime we do what ever else we can to impact change immediately. Not sure where you take issue with what I am saying.
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@Mrs D: I don't see what your concrete suggestions are, other than to kind of throw you hands up and say, ugh this will take forEVER! I think that attitude jus contributes to a feeling of resignation. I also think it's a fallacy that government is completely incapable of making quick, effective legislation --they've done it before. So what are YOUR ideas? I'd love to know!
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