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@AprilFool: @DesertDreams88: I also disagree with this article. It makes some big assumptions, which in turn downplays what happened. Also, the family signed a TV deal with this skeleton in its closet, so now that this has all been brought to light in the public eye is the parents' fault, not the public's. Jim bob and Michelle are the ones re-victimizing their girls here, not the public. They had to have known that being famous, this could come out someday.
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@mrscobee: exactly
My problems with that article are too numerous for me to list. I think the author needs a reality check
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@DesertDreams88: while I agree that the Duggar girls shouldn't have to relive their trauma, the writer of this blog post is WAY off base. She completed lost me when she declared "abuse is private". No, abuse is a crime.
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I guess I should've put in the effort as to explain why I considered the article food for thought. I'm sorry my original post was a bit lazy in that regard.
Mainly, since the news broke, I hadn't been considering the girls reliving this via the news. I had mainly been focused on Josh's rightful downfall and the Duggars' poisonous purity beliefs being exposed for what they are (which is what this thread mostly focused on.) This article reminded me to have a broader perspective and keep my mind and heart more on the victims, who are the ones that truly matter most in this case. It should urge us to think, how do we live our lives and impact the culture in such a way that this does not happen in the future? How do we explain inappropriate touching, etc., to our children, and how should we act if anything ever happens? What, if anything, can be done to heal this situation?
I also appreciated how the author clarified that he is not a pedophile or a rapist, two terms that have been tossed around and thus diluted in their power. He sexually violated younger family members, multiple times. You could definitely use the word assault, though I feel that implies violence. However, rape and pedophilia are not involved. He was 14 at the time, and the sisters that it could be were 9-12 at the time and a 5 year old (if the 5 year old was one of the victims, then I'd def. use the term pedophilia.)
I think it's a terribly sad case of a sexually repressed, horribly confused boy who had almost no way to understand or exercise his sexuality in a healthy way and thus mistreated the only girls he had access to, driven by bottled-up lust and a lack of true parental guidance. It's also an exposure of the insular nature and narrow mindset of the quiverfull, homeschooling, fundie, purity culture.
I truly believe that the Duggars, including the victims, still to this day do not understand why there is so much outrage in the media today, due to the mindset @torchwood has adeptly explained.
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@truth bombs: I guess I read that statement more as, if the victims want to stay private about their abuse, that's their right, it's their story ... as much as we don't like it or think they don't understand.
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@DesertDreams88: reading the police reports I'm pretty sure the 5-year-old was one of the victims and one of the oldest two sisters wasn't.
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@DesertDreams88: I got the same impression as @Miss Ariel -- it also mentions a victim sitting on his lap for a story, so that would imply a younger age to me. I would consider that pedophilia, and I do think it suggests something more than sexual repression gone wrong. I would also consider touching someone sexually against their will to be a form of violence. I do hear what you're saying about the victims, though. I think it's awful that they have to relive this and have it all scrutinized by the public and the media. But I actually hope they'll be able to understand that so many people support them (the victims), that it was not their fault, that what was done to them was wrong -- both the assault and the subsequent coverup by their parents. I hope they can get help. I don't necessarily think keeping this information secret and buried would have been better, even though my heart truly goes out to them for what they're dealing with now.
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It's pedophilia. He was reading them stories at the time of at least one molestation. @DesertDreams88:
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@MrsSCB: agreed- whatever the textbook definition of pedophilia is, a 14 year old, fondling the genitalia (under her underwear!) of a very young sibling- is not the natural result of a sexually repressed teenager. To me it is clear that there is some clear psychological issue here.
In regards to the article, I agree that our country has an appetite for these kinds of exposes that often hurt innocent victims, but i don't see how you can blame the public here for a media circus that this family created. If we're going to prevent this kind of sensationalized circus, I think we need to start pressuring TV networks to stop allowing parents to waive their kids' right to privacy by putting their childhood on TV for the world to criticize. When has a reality tv family situation gone well for the kids, Jon and Kate? Honey boo boo? 19 kids....?
The thing is, no one in the greater public would have known not cared, if they hadn't put themselves on TV and toured the country and every talk show as puritanical, judgemental, preachy, evangelical politicians who purport to be perfect.
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This is mind blowing to me. Seewald has some good points in his essay with regards to the victims and seeking help, but support for their abuser and the parents actions, when his DIL could very well be one of the victims blows my mind.
http://www.people.com/article/michael-seewald-josh-duggar-reaction
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@DesertDreams88: although that article had issues (I'm just not seeing this as a progressives vs liberals thing like the blog world seems to), I have been thinking a lot about how the girls might feel. Is it good this came to light? Yes, TLC shouldn't be airing a show about a family who has covered up sex abuse. Josh Dugfar should not be working for the family whatever lobby.
On the other hand, I don't know that if I was in their situation, I would want my brother touching me to be national news. That doesn't mean it should be kept hush hush or that I'm on anything close to his side. But when I start reading articles talking about how specifically he touched them and all the details, it makes me wonder - is this just morbid curiosity, or do we actually think the girls are being served by the world knowing this? What they needed was someone on their side 10 years ago, not blogs like Gawker trying to dig up details for page hits. I just hate that sexual abuse is often used as entertainment...(I won't watch shows like Law and Order SVU for the same reason).
I know the counter argument is "the family are public figures." But the girls didn't have a choice to a) become public figures or b) tell their story about the abuse. Obviously the news can and will keep talking about this, but I just wish they had had the ability and opportunity to do it on their own.
The whole thing is heartbreaking.
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@anbanan15: I was torn on his essay. I agree that him even speaking out seems inappropriate if in fact his DIL was one of the abused. That said, I think he approached the situation with balance and in keeping with what I would expect from an average Christian (to sin is to be human, forgiveness because of Jesus, etc.) not agreeing or disagreeing, but his statement seemed more normal Christian less "duggar Christian" than others I've seen. (Full disclosure I'd never paid attention to them before this week).
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@AggieDaze: Completely agree!
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Thank you @jedeve for stating your thoughts so clearly, when I evidently wasn't able to
This exactly:
"What they needed was someone on their side 10 years ago, not blogs like Gawker trying to dig up details for page hits. I just hate that sexual abuse is often used as entertainment... The counter argument is "the family are public figures." But the girls didn't have a choice to a) become public figures or b) tell their story about the abuse."I find it incredibly sad that the adult Duggars did not deal with this head-on. After all, according to their Scriptures, being honest about sin and exposing it to "light" is clearly emphasized. John 3:20-21 says, "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."
Covering up abuse or wrongs is NOT biblical, although sadly too often organizations and family do this out of shame and an unwillingness to plumb the depths of the issue.
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@anbanan15: guinn has publicly supported huckabee too, who has expressed support for josh.
The whole thing is sick.
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While I hate that the girls may be reliving their abuse by having it brought into the public eye I do think it's really important that these girls see the outrage towards what was done to them. Their story was only told in a very controlled environment where their abuser was never punished, the girls did not get the counseling they deserve, and they were most likely told that they were partly to blame for what happened to them. Until this came to light, they hadn't seen anyone really truly blame their abuser and support the girls are blameless victims who shouldn't have had to continue to live under the same roof as their abuser, and see him become famous, while being unable to share their story.
ETA: And seeing the reaction of the public may help other girls in similar situations choose to come forward with their stories rather than continue to suffer in silence because the people in their lives are more concerned with protecting abusers than victims.
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@Truth Bombs: I wonder how much, if anything they are seeing though. I remember from old shows that the sugars don't have tv and probably aren't willingly allowing the kids access to any media.
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@birdofafeather: Well I would assume that Jessa and Jill are seeing it at the very least since they are married and outside of the home. And they know their show is being cancelled, so even if their parents are filtering the information, it's hard to hide the fact the public doesn't support how the family handled what happened.
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@birdofafeather: @Truth Bombs: I know they have instagram & facebook too, I am sure people are leaving comments, even if they are getting deleted? Maybe?
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@Truth Bombs: that's a good point. I'm just talking more about how do they benefit by the world knowing if the touching was over or under the underwear, how long, who, etc.
Eta: also, a lot of the outrage seems to be focused on "see, the Duggars aren't perfect! They're so screwed up! How could Josh be working for the Family lobby?" Which if they have any sort of Stockholm syndrome thing going on, could be counterproductive for them. So I hope this is a wake up call for them, but I'm not sure.
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@jedeve: Again, I'm sure this is painful for them and I don't want to discount that. Nor do I think there should be interest purely from an entertainment value (which unfortunately is happening). But I think the more of the truth that comes out, the better. It makes it more difficult for the parents to continue to tell the girls "What happened to you really wasn't abuse. The public doesn't know the details, they think you were raped, and you weren't, so you're fine and this isn't anything to get upset over".
ETA: I do agree there is no reason the public needs to know which sisters were his victims.
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@anbanan15: The thing that really bugged me about what he said was when he referred to it as "the nightmare that had been laid to rest well over a decade ago with Josh's repentance and reformation." How does he know it was laid to rest? How does he know that it didn't continue longer? Or that Josh really repented? Maybe for those girls it continues in their heads every damn day.
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@ShootingStar: Agree completely. Perhaps this was "laid to rest" from Josh, Jim Bob and Michelle's perspective. But the experience of the victims was certainly not addressed properly at any point!
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@ShootingStar: @Truth Bombs: This!
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@Truth Bombs: I didn't think about the fact that it could (probably?)have involved girls out of the house! Brain fart.
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@Truth Bombs: "But I think the more of the truth that comes out, the better. It makes it more difficult for the parents to continue to tell the girls "What happened to you really wasn't abuse. The public doesn't know the details, they think you were raped, and you weren't, so you're fine and this isn't anything to get upset over"."
Agree 100%. They NEED to know what people outside that family think of this. Imagine how brainwashed they are, through no fault of their own!!
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@ShootingStar: And I wonder if those women/girls even realize that it's not their fault and that the reason they feel bad is the crime that was perpetrated on them, not something to do with themselves.
They have been brainwashed to believe that they are to serve men. Were they even given the opportunity to feel like something wrong happened to them, or is this just part of their burden to bear as women/girls? What a twisted perception they must have of both God and men!
Do they carry the guilt of being "impure" through no fault of their own? How do they feel seeing their brother get away with this? Do they feel like they are to blame?
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@AprilFool: Loved that! Especially this part:
"What are we teaching our girls?
Are we telling them that it’s not really a crime to be sexually assaulted…as long as the attacker is a teen, white, from a good Christian home and asks God to forgive him his transgressions? Or, since it’s your sibling, we will just not tell anyone because you wouldn’t want your brother to get in trouble! Think of what it would do to our family (and our reality show income!) Plus, you’re just a girl, and girls are to be subservient, you’re just learning how much so at a very early age. That’s what Michelle and Jim Bob are telling their girls. And, those defending Josh are telling their girls the same thing, by excusing his actions.
Sorry, but I’m not ok with that. I want my daughter to know, and I think most mothers and fathers would agree, that if ANYONE hurts her, or does anything of a sexual nature to her that she is not comfortable with, I will do everything in my power to validate what has happened to HER, not to her attacker. I will support my daughter, I will listen to her, I will believe her, I will love her and I will help her."
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@DesertDreams88: I just want to point out that even though it may not have been violent, doesn't mean it's not an assault. Any kind of violation to your body is an assault, not only on your body, but also on your mind. Just because he didn't violently hit them or hold them down, doesn't mean it hasn't been assaulting their minds on a daily basis.
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2 of the daughters identified themselves
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@anbanan15: ugh, that's an interview I won't be watching. I'm so sad for those girls. And I can't believe they've always acted so self-righteous when it's clear they love the spotlight just as much as any Kardashian...
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@MrsSCB: I'm actually interested in what they have to say. I think it is hard when you know someone your entire life, let alone when this person is your brother, to think of them in these terms, victim of not, and that's where some of their comments are coming from (Jessa's in the article). I totally agree with what you are saying though!
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I'm not surprised they are speaking out in defense of their brother. They've likely been held partially responsible for what happened and it's been minimized and hidden (with zero repercussions for their brother) for well over a decade.
The very direct message they and their family are sending to other child sexual abuse victims, and perpetrators, is that felony sexual assault isn't a big deal, and is just something that "the media" blows out of proportion.
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@yoursilverlining: yes! Well said on all points.
ETA: Anyone else watching the interview? ugh just the way they are talking about what happened sounds like more cover ups.
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@anbanan15: oh, I agree, I can't imagine the confusion they've felt. It's just upsetting and makes me angry to think they've never been given any other options than to forget and live in the same house with him. Not to mention how they've been taught that women are basically responsible for men's "desires" and the way they act, however disgusting. And I'm worried Megyn Kelly is going to be soft on the parents, just trying to drum up sympathy for them
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@anbanan15: just turned it on. It already sounds like more excuses and making this a sympathy story of a "kid who made a mistake." Not addressing his sexual assaults and his escape from actual consequences that his crimes should have brought on for him to really "change." It makes me sick that the victims are also defending him. I can only imagine what they've been through all this time back then and now all over again
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@mrsjyw: this "interview" is a complete joke.
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Omg. This is painful to watch. I also feel like they have rehearsed this to a fault and it does not seem authentic at all.
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@Madison43: @yellowbird: @mrsjyw: Yes! Nauseating. The way their eyes are!! I'm only interested in what the girls have to say.
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