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@Tidybee: don't forget calling women fat pigs, disgusting and animals. He's called a woman disgusting for wanting to pump. I can't fathom how any woman could want to vote for someone who thinks so little of women and has so much distain for women.
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@Mrs D: I guess I didn't phrase it correctly, so thank you for pointing that out. They don't support him BECAUSE of his ideas (I did not say policies), but they aren't turned off by them, either, and I think many do, deep down, agree with those ideas. As another poster pointed out, they like Trump because "he speaks his mind." Well, I'm sorry, but his mind is racist and xenophobic and misogynistic (etc, etc), so I have to believe, on some level, many of his supporters share those views. I'm not saying ALL Trump supporters. I am careful to say many that I've encountered, which, admittedly, is a small number.
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@Mrs D: how can she outperform him when the man wouldn't even allow her to answer questions without constantly interrupting her? My god, he was literally yelling over both her and the moderator, taking up her speaking time and going over his, too many times to count. And imagine the backlash against her if she had a screaming outburst back at him like she had every right to by the 30th time he interrupted her. You don't have to agree with any Hillary's politics. This is exactly what women have to deal with every day of our lives. I don't understand how any woman could see this incredibly rude and sexist behavior play out on national stage and not cringe or be angered on her behalf.
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@Meow: If I were him I would have been frustrated and irritated at the complete bias of the commentating by Lester Holt. Sometimes when the media refuses to remove their biases I can understand why he acts out and talks over people. Do I wish he would have controlled it more - sure....but do I wish just once these people would act impartial YES. Its laughable and pathetic.
Second...I did not see him act any differently to her than he did to all the men he debated during the republican primary debates. Did you want him to treat her differently because she is a woman? Damned if he does and damned if he doesnt. To quote Hillary: βthis is a man whoβ¦has said women donβt deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men.β...ya - thats how it goes...I guess I dont see the problem with expecting equal pay for equal output? Apparently she wants equal pay for lesser work? And I am pretty sure if I went back and did some reading I recall that she was no angel when it came to equal pay while she was a senator.
But yes...I suppose since he talked over her last night he was being sexist...?
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@Mrs D: I agree he did that in the Republican debate, he might have even done it worse with men. I think where the double standard comes in is trying to imagine Hillary doing that much interrupting and not being ripped apart for it, or seen as anything but a nagging, weak and Whiney.
As for the equal pay comment, the way it's phrased suggests that women have to prove themselves to be of the same caliber as men while men are seen as the bar where his standard is set. I don't think anyone is arguing that people who work less or don't have as good of outcomes should get paid or promoted more.
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@Maysprout: Yes, I'm aware on both of those. I guess for me - some of the appeal is the fact that he talked over her and out of turn. No, not because he was trying to be sexist or condescending towards her but because he is not some robotic politician who sat in a hotel room and scripted/rehearsed his answers to be the most universally appealing. For me personally, although I have said and mean it that I do not "support" him I will admit I find some appeal in his being against the mold. I am so beyond disgusted with politicians (both sides) and the fact that they are nothing more than talking heads. They do nothing. They accomplish nothing - other than padding their own pockets under the disguise of public service. I have much more respect for those who wear their intentions on their sleeves.
Prime example...the remarks about "thats called business" and making money in the down turn. OH HOW DARE HE! I am not a bad person...I am a fairly normal hard working person. When the economic crisis hit in 2010 you know what we did? We went hunting for the best deal...and we stole a house. And you know what - we put hard sweat equity into it and 3 years later sold it for a sweet profit and bought our dream home. Its called being smart and making smart business decisions. He doesnt put a front that Trump Enterprise is a charity....
Nevermind the fact that her husband is the one who set the 2008 economic crisis in motion...but thats a whole different post!
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@Mrs D: re: your second point - I've actually never watched the other debates or anything else where he's spoken extensively so I didn't know this was his normal self. Which doesn't make yesterday's behavior any less appalling. But, we obviously have opposite views.
For me a debate, and a presidential one at that, would be where candidates take turns answering and countering the questions that are posed. You are given equal time and you wait your turn like a civilized human being. If he wanted to rant and ramble by himself that would be more appropriate in a rally or conference setting.
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@Mrs D: actually George W is responsible for the economic crisis. Clinton was only president until 2001. Lots can happen in 7 years, like how Obama turned everything around.
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I watched the debate thanks to Hulu. Trump is offensive no doubt about it. Trump lacks empathy. The news snippets of some of their more memorable exchanges pale in comparison to all that was said. I thought Lester Holt did a great job staying composed as he fact checked , really just pointed out that Trump was on the record for saying something different. I hope the next couple of debates are this hands off too.
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@Mrs D: with more people in the debate, I think he could have fewer quips and time them more appropriately. I think Obama was a better debater than Clinton in that he could see the point his opponent was trying to make and think on his feet to counter it. Like I don't disagree with you that trump had a legitimate point that business policy is diff than government. So i was expecting more coherence from trump bc I did think he might be able to think on his feet a bit more than other people but I did not see that at all last night. He seemed like he had a few prepackaged attack points and quips but then nothing as far as policy or even understanding of current and world events. I just don't understand how he could get to the point of a presidential debate and not be prepared enough to form complete sentences or even complete a train of thought. i was never planning on voting for him but I went from thinking maybe he'll put up some kind of a fight to wow, people weren't joking when they said he was a complete moron.
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@Mrs.Someone: I, respectfully, completely disagree. Bill is directly responsible for the push to make everyone a homeowner...simply bc bush was in office does not mean the crisis rests solely on his policies.
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@Mrs D: re: the bias of Lester Holt's commentating - you do realize he's a registered Republican?
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@Mrs D: Here's some research for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Recession
If you do a search for 'Clinton', it will explain many times why your statement is wrong. -
@Mrs D: re: "that's called business," I think the issue is that he didn't make an honest profit like you did on your house. You said you "stole" yours but you didn't really...Trump did though! Literally didn't pay vendors who he hired to do work. That's not business savvy, it's stealing.
More here (granted they are Hillary ads so take with a grain of salt, but I found them pretty appalling):
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@meredithNYC: I am not surprised Lester Holt is a Republican- I found him more than fair. He was very restrained when he brought up past interviews, tweets that have become Trump's record. He didn't read back his comments verbatim or say which platform he said them just that he was on the record for something different. In the birther part Holt even gave Trump an assist when he reminded him the question was part of a segment on building better race relations.
The entire birther exchange was really upsetting. @Mrs.D: DH is like you in a "never her" sort of way, but being among one of the groups he's highly offended DH is not supporting Trump by voting for him. According to Trump DH and I dodge bullets every time we step outside our house. That's offensive.
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@Adira: I think you're on to something with why some people continue to support Trump. At the DNC Convention a comedic roving reporter spoke with one of the Bernie or Bust supporters, a white male. The reporter asked if he would vote for Hillary. The supporter hadn't made up his mind, but admitted he knew not voting for her made it easier for Trump to get elected. Then, the reporter was able to get the man to agree that a Trump presidency would not be so bad for him because he is not apart of a group Trump targets.
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@Mrs D: You are voting for Trump. Therefore, you are supporting his bid for President.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Yeah, a lot of people voting third party or voting Trump because they think Clinton is worse have the luxury of not having to suffer the consequences of what a Trump presidency could mean for certain groups of people. I thought this was a good article on the topic:
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@Mrs.Someone: I generally do not rely on Wikipedia for my research. I'm comfortable with the research I have done - and respectfully agree to disagree with you.
@meredithNYC: His personal opinions may not always be reflected in how he presents himself in a professional manner. I feel - along with many others - that he was ridiculously biased. I think this comes from external pressures not his own personal opinions.
@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I found the birther exchange frustrating. I wish Trump would have said something more along the lines of "I was wrong..." - he could still point out that it was frustrating not to get the birth certificate until 2011 but I would have liked to hear him say "I was wrong". I would also have liked to hear HRC acknowledge her campaigns involvement back in the day...I think its comical the shit her and Obama threw at each other which is now miraculously swept under the rug.
@littlebug: I just see it different. I vote the way I vote because to me an HRC presidency is far more terrifying than a Trump one. I would happily vote for another viable candidate who I thought could keep her out of office.
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I can KIND OF get people wanting to vote for Trump to change the status quo. I don't get being ok with Trump exactly, but I can get the desire to shake things up. However, I can't understand being ok with the knowledge that that man is going to appoint at least one Supreme Court Justice. How can someone who doesn't "really" support Trump turn a blind eye to that?
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@lawbee11: Great article. Thank you.
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@Mrs D: Obama produced his birth certificate in 2008, Hawaii officials confirmed it was real, and reporters saw it in person. The argument became that either the name was forged to cover up a Mohammad first name and/ or that he had conspired with Hawaii officials to produce a fake to cover up a foreign birth. .
In 2011 he released a long form birth certificate, I honestly don't have any idea how to access that for me or my children, it's not what's required anywhere that asks for a birth certificate. And if he was conspiring with Hawaii officials then a long form birth certificate doesn't prove anything.
I've said plenty on HB about what I think of Clintons scandals but that doesn't lesson Trumps attack on Obama - it was pure tin foil hat with a side of xenophobia. -
@Mrs D: ok
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@Mrs D: if a satisfactory answer from Trump was to simply say getting the long form birth certificate was frustrating then you are missing why the birther movement was so hurtful.
I still remember the 3 am commercial, but I also remember the pic of Obama and Hillary sitting in the situation room when Osama's compund was raided.
@lawbee: yep!
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I was addressing what I wish he would have said in the debate - not the issue all together...
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Yes, I think that's the case with a lot of the people around me. I work with a lot of Republicans and the majority of them are white older men. While they don't agree with a lot of what Trump says or does, they are hardcore Republicans and they believe a Trump presidency won't negatively affect them (whereas a Hillary one will since she'll raise taxes on them).
I find this kind of mindset very upsetting, but it also seems to be one of the key differences between Republicans and Democrats (at least among the ones I know). The Republicans I know tend to fall into two categories: social conservatives which will never vote for a Democratic nominee because of their religious beliefs, or fiscal conservatives, who vote primarily based on how their finances are affected by the President. And then most of the Democrats I know are more socially liberal. They care about women's rights. They care about LGBTQ rights. They care about civil rights. They care about health care. They care about education. Those things are just much more important to them than how much they pay in taxes and how big the government is. I'd happily pay more in taxes if it meant paid maternity leave, help with daycare costs, more affordable college for my kids, better schools, easier access to health care and prescription drugs, etc.
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@Mrs D: I can understand if you are a hard-core Republican and you just can't vote for Clinton or any other Democrat, but I also don't understand why you find a Clinton Presidency so terrifying. Most of the Republicans I know that are hard-core Republicans like you and just don't agree with Trump but will vote for him ALSO agree that a Clinton Presidency will probably just be more of the same (similar to Obama) and that they personally won't be that affected by it, except maybe see an increase in their taxes. So I'm not sure why you are so frightened of it.
I also don't understand how you can just ignore how incredibly racist Trump is and how he's ALREADY affecting our alliances with other nations with all the garbage he spews. The fact that Clinton had to speak directly to our allies during the debate to try to assuage their concerns is ridiculous. A Presidential nominee shouldn't be spouting such garbage that our allies begin to question American's word and our commitment to our allies and treaties. Just by speaking, he's destroying our country.
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This is sort of a side topic......but I have been very shaken in what little was left of my faith by seeing so many "Christian" people that I know personally spew such hate online. Really shaken. I do not think Jesus would encourage building walls, stopping refugees from coming for aide, stop-and-frisk policies, not paying taxes, stockpiling weapons, denigrating women, denigrating "fat" people.
It's all very scary how myopic these Christians I know are, because up until this election, I sort of believed they were good intentioned and just a little misguided. It's all very ugly.
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@Mrs D: I mean, just call a spade a spade. That's fine that you don't agree with Hillary's politics. Or that you dislike her as a person. I agree with you on both counts. She's a liar, and she is very likely to take more dollars out of my household pocket. And that blows. HOWEVER. I'm willing to take that hit because I'm not comfortable with a racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, uninformed maniac being president. There is literally no way to say Trump isn't those things. He's proven so time and time again (Mexicans are racists, pregnancy is an inconvenience, global warming is made up by and for the Chinese). So, you have decided that taking a hit in higher taxes would be worse than allowing such a hateful man to run your country because YOU are unlikely to be negatively affected by his hatefulness. That's fine, and it's your right to make that choice. But don't claim it's a difference in perception. Trump is hateful, no matter how you perceive things. Also, if you're worried about financial consequences, I'd be more concerned about a possible market crash caused by a Trump presidency followed by a complete break down in trade based on his likely nationalist policies, than I would be about tax rate hikes.
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"When I try to tap out an even more beautiful sentence β and my sentences are amazing sentences; you canβt believe these sentences β I have to press and bang and hunch closer to the desk and bang even harder and still you never know."
Hilarious.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/opinion/sympathy-for-the-donald.html?_r=0&referer=
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@Truth Bombs: I didnt realize I was most concerned with my personal tax rate. I'm glad you sorted that out for me.
I'm not comfortable with the many negative things she is. I do not agree with some of his more ridiculous, offensive and inappropriate statements. However, I have read his actual policies and intentions and do not find them as scary as I find her. I do not think its fair to presume I am simply concerned with my own tax rate...
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@Anagram: not to derail, but I believe in a Christianity that Jesus taught, which Trump is the exact opppsite of. Jesus preached to the poor, and preached against the oppressive forces of his day (Rome). That's why it frustrates me as well, that the far Right has sucked up Christianity and tries to be it's face. The image below sums up what I think.
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Dying.
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@sunny:
@Anagram: @Truth Bombs:
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@Mrs D: Can you maybe let us know which of Trump's policies you agree with? Or which of Clinton's you find so scary?
As far as I can tell, Clinton's policies are pretty similar to Obama's. Have you found the last 8 years particularly terrifying? Have they negatively affected you (besides financially)?
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@Bibliolove: That's awesome.
@lawbee11: and @sunny: I'm dying.
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@Mrs D: Ok. What ARE you concerned with? What's scarier to you than your girls growing up in a country led by a man who would degrade and devalue everything about them because they have vaginas. Or a man who mocks disabled people. Or a man who devalues entire groups of people based on race. Or a man whose ignorance and egotism could have dire consequence for our entire economic structure. Because by voting for him, you are saying you are OK with these things because they are better than the alternative. And again, you have that right, just own the fact that by voting for him, you are saying that these proven facts about his opinions and positions are less scary than whatever is so scary about Hillary.
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@lawbee11: I love this so much.
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@Adira: I could, but is it going to do anything really? I just dont want to waste yours or my time. I know my opinion will not be changed - and I doubt yours will?
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@Truth Bombs: Yeah, I'll be damned if I take my daughter to the polls and cast a vote for Trump. His wackjob VP is even worse for women. No thanks!
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