To make this short....I'm annoyed at the amount of extras offered to kids whose parents are plugged in to all the school stuff. There's lots of exsmples of this but here's a specific one...today I went to the school for a Thanksgiving program and some kids were being recognized for getting through the whole year's worth of sight words. My son is on track with his words without drilling so we don't drill. He's on the 3rd 9 weeks already and we don't practice often. I'm proud of him for staying on track without too much prodding from me. But now I see that being on track isn't really the goal for the other parents....now I feel awful for letting him work at his own pace. worry that his teachers won't see his potential. I was in gifted in K. We moved and my parents didn't pursue re testing and I was never in gifted again. I sort of wallowed around until high school until I could do APs without needing that gifted distinction. With sufficient challenge my grades and overall outlook on school really improved. I don't believe in pushing kids or doing homework all afternoon, but I don't want my ideals on this to put him behind. For example I don't correct his homework, because I want thw teacher to have an accurate picture of where he is academically. Does anyone else struggle with this?
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Also can I just say as an educator that it is so easy to fall into rewarding the kid who has family support? It is a vicious cycle. The kids in beta club get offered the chance to do some other extra, then those kids get a reputation for being bright/dependable and they get picked over and over again. I've seen it in the high school culture but didn't expect it to start in kindergarten. We are only now getting to the point where we don't need a nap after school!
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Yes. We chose to put DS into a solid regular school instead of gifted, and in a couple areas he's way ahead of the class. I don't want to push him, but he asks me for more challenging stuff and I can't do a whole lot because I just don't spend that much time with him. I don't know what the answer is. Other than the local private school, which I've heard from many people is top notch in those subjects. Unfortunately DH does not think that's a good use of the family finances.
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@Mama Bird: honestly it never crossed my mind that my kid wouldn't be in gifted/honors because my husband was super plugged in academically (as in STAR student/valedictorian) plus I've been in the high schools enough to know that the kids in gifted/honors aren't brilliant--just smart enough to make the cut. But now I'm beginning to see how kids are tracked so early that it doesn't actually have to do with intelligence at all. Well in GA you do an aptitude test but first you have to be recommended, which is where the problems lie. I live in a pretty rural area and I will be honest...if my kid doesn't make honors I would seriously consider private because there isnt a lot of enthusiasm or intellectual curiosity in the (**CURRICULUM IN) egular classes. My experience is interning in a local HS and middle school in the last 2 years and teaching at a local community college which is basically a feeder for the non gifted track kids here. I'm not generalizing to any other place...again I live in a town of 30k in an economically depressed area so my experience is not always the same as others.
I just did a degree in education, and we talked about RTI process for special needs but I wonder why we don't do it for gifted. Letting kids slip through the cracks.
**EDIT
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I also feel like I have to say....to be clear...my students are intellectually curious and very bright but it is clear to me that they have been taught down to quite a bit and it does take them a whole to acclimate to my high standards. When I was in HS interning my favorite kids were the regular kids by far. So many were clearly gifted but didn't have the support machine behind them.
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This article is sort of relevant but also highlights how insane people are about their kids. It feels impossible just to let then live their lives, make mistakes, improvise.
I don't know if my kid is gifted, etc., but I'm of the mindset that I will assume he is until told otherwise, because I try to have high standards as a rule. I just didn't realize what a large component of that is parents taking initiative for their kids success. I mean how did the kids even begin to start next spring sight words except that the parents wanted them to do it. Meanwhile stupid me is like "you got this weeks sight words! Congratulations! Now go play/clean your room." It never occurred to me to actually go look for next year's words and begin drilling those.
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I don't have a background in education, but if your son is performing at an appropriate level for his age in school, he's still probably learning more from playing/cleaning his room than spending time doing rote memorization tasks.
I wasn't there, but my response to kids being recognized for being ahead on sight words at a Thanksgiving ceremony would probably be to roll my eyes. Find the mom in the crowd doing that, and you may make a new friend.
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My kid is only 2.5 so what do I know, but I both empathize with you and also want to support you in keeping on with what you are doing, despite what other parents do. A parent at my kids pre school is insufferable with how “bright” and “advanced” his daughter is and how she needs to be challenged more.... the kid is two. Eye roll. She may be really bright or advanced now, but I firmly believe that is in no way predictive of anything. Plus having parents pushing so much at such a young age is clearly not good for the kid. Research shows that in the end, the skills and self regulation of kids not helicoptered are invaluable both professionally and emotionally. That said it is SO HARD to see the long game. But I really do think it’s better.
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I totally agree on the teacher needing to have an accurate picture of where your student is - I feel the same way.
My DD is not super excited about certain areas of school (writing), but loves rhyming and "reading" - I'm trying to help her at home to be sure she's doing the minimum she needs to do in the areas she doesn't like, but I don't press too hard - I don't want to burn her out. We focus on things she's interested in...everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and I'm ok with that, especially while she's so young.
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@MrsBucky: thank you for allaying my anxieties a little! You know, when you think about the long game, it helps. For example in the OP I mentioned that my parents were very hands-off with my education, and then in a reply I mentioned that my husband was Mr. Super Student, doing every activity, getting As on everything etc. Well....we met in college where I was a go-getter and he was a total party kid. For us, it all evened out. I was very invested in college because I had learned how to invest in myself (since my parents were AWOL). My husband has the intellect edge but by the time he was in college he was a total party kid and very burned out. I think we graduated with almost the exact same GPA, same major. But I did have the benefit of going to a very good metro area school that gave me an advantage WRT college....
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It’s hard but i think you are right not to push. Great point about the long game. I see a lot of pushing around reading here but I’m trying to let my daughter learn at her own pace. Some things she is really motivated to learn, some not, as long as she’s on track with all I’m trying to let her lead. It’s hard though. Parents can opt into gifted testing here in k and then everyone gets tested in 1st and retested again later.
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1.) Thanks for allowing all of this TMI.
2) You know another reason I think I am so rattled by this is because I chose not to do redshirt for my son so he did start K before he was even 5. So there's a part of me that feels completely responsible for any growing pains he experiences, because technically he COULD still be in pre-k right now. That being said, he is on-track with all his subjects and I don't get any notices about his behavior, so I do generally feel comfortable with that decision. FWIW to anyone who is in the throes of that awful debate.....glad that is over for us... -
I think you're right in that being "on track" is not the goal for a lot of parents.
What I am not clear on is your opening comment, where you wrote that "I'm annoyed at the amount of extras offered to kids whose parents are plugged in to all the school stuff."
I consider myself plugged in, but in no way does my son get any special treatment for it. This past week I was at the school twice for special events and my son still got in trouble and had to sit separately from his peers at lunch (that's the punishment when they make a poor choice during lunch).
If there was something like a gifted pull out program, my son would have to qualify on his own merit, not my recommendation unless of course we had an IEP for it.
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: you know, I try to remember that struggle/ growing pains are not bad for my son. It’s hard for me because often every fiber of my being wants to shield him from pain.... but then I remember not only that I can’t, but that if I did... it would be bad for him. My dad always says he have his kids everything except knowing what it’s like to struggle... and he sees that as a failure in retrospect. I can’t remember your faith background but I sang Sara Groves’ “pray for this child” to my son as a baby and i think about it in this context to. It’s Christian, but if that isn’t offensive to you, give it a listen.
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@looch: I don't think that kids whose parents are plugged in get special treatment, but I can see how a teacher might develop a feel for a kid based on what their parents do. For example,just in the past 30 days there's been can-a-thon/red had reader (that's the sight word promotion I'm talking about)/Pizza Hut reader/Six Flags reader/popcorn day for United Way/PTO fundraiser/red ribbon week, there's a "student of the month" at his school for every grade level. There are limits on parental attention span for all these small things, and as you can see, some of them cross into the line on parent involvement vs. academic achievement. My son and I read every night, but if I forget to fill in the Pizza Hut reading form, does that indirectly make him look bad/not a "reader"? Because at 5 he still needs a lot of help remembering stuff like that so it falls to me to prioritize that vs. everything else in life. My experience of teachers is that they are human and can't help but favor the kids who are plugged in to all this stuff. Once a kid is older they can choose what activities they want to take on, but by that time the teachers might have already formed an opinion of the student based on initiative taken by the parent. I mean, I am full of privilege but imagine a single parent having to take all of this on and know that on some level you child's academic reputation is based on stuff that you do. Even the "student of the month" thing I am wary of because aren't all the kinder kids just acclimating to school this semester? Is it really time to start ranking/rewarding based off behavior? Again, my non-redshirted kid is 1 year behind most of the rest of the class so I'm very sensitive to any favoritism based off behavior because some kids do come in at relative age disadvantage.
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@looch: I have to say, I do think that teachers are human and that parental involvement does start to play a role in how the teachers perceive the kid. Example: just the past 30 days we have can-a-thon/red ribbon/red hat reader/United Way fundraiser popcorn day/Six Flags reader/Pizza Hut reading challenge/school fundraiser/Dojo rewards/attendance rewards. Some of that stuff is purely extra curricular, but some of it starts to become academic (like the reading logs). We read every night, but if I fail to initial the reading log, does that impact how the teacher views my kid? Doesn't seem fair to have something as academic as reading tied basically to parental attention span. Sight words is another example, because it is more of a test of at-home parental support than it is of reading ability, yet it is used as a metric for all sorts of rewards/academic standards guideposts. I mean, I am full of privilege, but think if you were a single parent facing all of this. I'm pretty sensitive to the Kid of the Month/dojo rewards/attendance awards too, because what is the metric here? Are these kinder kids responsible for being tardy? Kids have enough trouble acclimating to school without also being ranked on behavior, which is basically what Dojo rewards do...you know I struggled so much with whether or not to redshirt my son and now I'm seeing how the emphasis on behavior charts, etc., can push people into feeling like they MUST give their kid that extra age edge.
WELL crap I thought it ate my post and then I re-wrote, haha.
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@looch: I thought of a personal example to illustrate. Like I said, my parents were very uninvolved with my education and we moved around a lot and furthermore, my mom had three kids when I was in middle school. So I was sort of on my own. One of the watershed moments for me was getting nominated for an academic summer program by a history teacher. I was so excited because no teachers had taken an academic interest in me, and I loved history. When I got there, the interview mainly dealt with extracurriculars. I didn't have any to speak of...my mom was home with three infants so I was babysitter and she couldn't do the soccer mom thing/driving all around town. I came home crestfallen. The academic program spot went to a friend of mine who was an all-around good student. He had actually been nominated in multiple subjects but felt that history would have the least competition. He ended up going to medical school, so history really wasn't relevant to him, but having that on his college application was certainly a feather in his cap! I am still grateful to the history teacher for giving me the chance to apply to the program because it greatly impacted my sense of self, but I was totally unprepared for what the interview would be like. They asked me question like "what are your plans for summer vacation if this doesnt pan out?" And uh, the only answer I had was babysitting. But I mean, as a 10th grader, you can't exactly arrange a summer's worth of grand educational plans if you don't have parental support.
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I’m not sure what your point is. Parents shouldn’t work on things with their kids? I mean, the way I see it, my daughter is in a class with 20 other kids and just 1 teacher. The teacher doesn’t have the time to sit with my daughter 1-on-1 to go through sight words, numbers, tasks repeatedly. I see it as, they get foundations / base at schoOl, and then I supplement that with individual attention when I can at home. We don’t have a ton of time, but we read with her when we can. We do fun spelling quizzes in the car while we are driving to the grocery store. I keep book apps on my phone so she can “read” and review sight words when we’re out.
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@pinkcupcake: Yes, actually that is exactly my point! If you can't fit the curriculum into 7 hours, then your curriculum is too big to fit into your school year, and you should pare it down. Honestly, this is what I was taught in graduate school. It isn't fair to have academic standards that mainly test parental willpower. Not only that, but it doesn't help the student. If student A has a lot of parent help, but doesn't understand the material, then her homework will look perfect, but she doesn't understand. The teacher moves on because she assumes the kid gets it, but she doesn't. Another kid doesn't have parental support, does an adequate job but not perfect, but is labeled "behind" because she doesn't come in with perfect homework that has been vetted by parents.
https://modernlearners.com/homework-is-a-social-justice-issue/
Obviously for me it isn't a social justice issue because, white mom, but I still have to ask myself....just because I CAN upend my schedule to conform to school expectations, does that mean I SHOULD or that it is healthiest for my kiddo? But does that put him at a disadvantage re: his peers? And therefore should I go along with it....?
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@pinkcupcake: would it be snide for me to say, we don't do tablets? Because I feel like my no-tablet-at-home preference is cutting into this because they're always sending home paperwork for various programs we can OPT to do, for extra points...that are used as rewards....that my kid doesn't get because I have a preference against tablets....
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I don't think it's about the curriculum being "too big." We just reinforce what we learn in school at home. I mean, that's how I always functioned. We play violin too, and we have to practice what we learn at home if we wanna get good at it. Isn't it like this with any other skill?
It's not about parental willpower. I don't see why you view this as such a negative thing. It's just one more aspect/responsibility of parenting. With my 16 month old, my duties are pretty limited to diaper changing, feeding, and playing. With my 5.5 year old, my duties are a bit more serious and along with basic things like feeding, bathing, etc, now I have to help her with her academics too. It's the natural progression of things.
And if you don't want to use a tablet, don't. There's plenty of other stuff to read. I just used that as one example. It's like, less than 10 minutes of our day. I don't think my kid has a huge advantage over some other kid because I give her some media time.
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: I don't know about any formal studies or anything but I work in the education sector and we always quote that parental involvement is the most important factor for a student's success. More important than the quality of school, teachers, access to technology, etc. Now, there's definitely a difference between a parent correcting a kids homework and reminding them to do their homework. To me the former doesn't set the child up for success, but the latter definitely can. Setting up time and space for schoolwork is a parents responsibility at this age, as is demonstrating that its a priority. Those foundations should guide the independent learning behaviors I think you hope to see in the future. Now is it "fair" that the system works this way, that's a whole different question, but I don't think its the fault of a rigorous curriculum.
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@JennyPenny: that's what i was trying to say, but you put it much better.
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: I just made a post about redshirting today. I'm super stressed out about it, and DD is only three! We'll have to make a decision by the end of this school year though.
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@JennyPenny: Do you really think that works for kinder kids? I say this because when we decided not to redshirt we actually talked with the admins who were very clear that kinder kids didn't have any HW outside of sight words, that their rule was 10 minutes per grade, but now that we're in the thick of it, that isn't the case at all...and most of the HW does require at least for us to read it and work through it with him, I mean he can't read the directions on a Common Core worksheet (I actually like the worksheets but they do require my involvement).
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@pinkcupcake: we are doing pre-piano and on those days, we don't get to read as much for the reading log! And yet at the end of the month, he's gotta have the hours on the reading log in order to get the dang personal pan pizza, so we have to either 1) lie on the sheet or 2) force him to read to get the hours. So, you see what I mean by this whole "there-are-only-so-many-hours-in-the-day thing."
Agree to disagree I suppose!
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: i think you're being very inflexible about it. Life happens. There are days when we don't get our full 20 minutes in. So what? It all evens out. We read more on some days, less on others. If you can't read 30 minutes on piano days, read an extra 10 minutes on another day to make it up.
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@JennyPenny: You know, I can't dispute you re: parental involvement, I don't think there's much debate on that point, but there's a difference between a general idea of parental involvement/care vs. having curriculum standards that demand it, and rewarding students for what is basically parental attention span. I mean, at some point I have to choose between HW and going to bed on time, and that pains me to do!
FWIW I try my best to do all of the stuff, but it is pretty miserable and a lot of the time it feels extraneous and it eats into free play time, time for chores, and time for valuable ECS. It makes our lives feel like a perpetual rat race. Plus it ties some sort of external reward (pizza) to something that should be interesting to a child just inherently.
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I fall in line with @JennyPenny. Whether the way the system is designed is fair is a separate issue. You can't fault other parents if they want to be more engaged in their child's education development. That being said, does not include scenarios such as parents doing homework for their kids. The system is as it is and if you want to be less engaged, then that may result in not enough stickers towards a goal.
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: absolutely- which is why there’s so much research suggesting schools should abandon on homework in the early grades. That time spent on family dinner is more important than worksheets. But then that work all focuses on homework for homework’s sake and not students working on skills that they didn’t quite get during class time. I see the latter as an appropriate use of out of school time.
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I don’t think parents who are “plugged in” to this are helicopter parents. Sometimes it’s not the parents. Some kids are motivated by pizza parties and prizes. I was a competitive kid and things like accelerated reader were right up my alley. My parents were not involved in what I was doing at all. They didn’t even check to see if I did my homework or offer to help unless I asked.
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@pinkcupcake: You know, after some thought I think I can honestly say....you do seem like you handle the pressures of parenting with more grace than I can muster. For the most part I am trying to make peace with my deficiencies as a parent, but it does scare me to think that my kid might actually lose out on opportunities because of what I see as personal flaws in myself.
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@Eko: yeah, I think that's the crux of it, feeling like you are in a lose/lose situation. It doesn't help that my husband and I both work at night (I work at night so I can SAH with my 2 yo and he has government meetings in the evenings) and have community involvement stuff that we also fit in in the evenings, and none of it feels like something we are willing to give up, because being a part of our community feels as valuable as some of the education stuff...we want to model all of that to our kids too, if that makes sense...at least one time this year my kiddo has done the educational computer programs in my classroom while I teach, but usually it means that one parent has night routine for both kids while the other works or is at a community meeting, etc. Hard to fit it all in.
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@Mrs. Pickle: I'm really hoping that will kick in as he gets a little older too. He doesn't even understand the concept of this in some cases. I asked him today if he knew what a "red hat reader" was and if he wanted to learn all the SWs to earn his hat... he acted like he had never heard of it, even though clearly it is a big school thing! I don't want to make him care about something that he doesn't care a bit about, but I also don't want him to get the reputation for being a kid with no academic curiosity simply because he's a bit too young to care right now....hard to know what to do...plus I just hate when it gets mixed together with non-optional academics so that, as a parent, I can't tell if this is optional-just-for-fun challenge or actually-we-use-this-as-a-metric...
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@LemonJack: PM me if you wanna talk about it! But as you can see from my post I am a bit nutty so my experience may not be of any use to you...
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: I think the parental involvement thing will even out. It matters now, but when they're older and don't need us to sign their reading logs and push them to do their homework, they'll gradually become responsible for their own success.
And pushing kids to succeed only works when they're ready. If they're not, it's kind of pointless and doesn't stick too well. I've seen this so many times.
And may I add that I also hate reading logs with a passion
it would be super if my kid could go back to reading because he likes it, not because he feels he must check off a box....
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: I completely understand the predicament. I think we all struggle with making time for things we consider important. I know too there are a lot of families that think schools assign too much homework early on. I think something to remember is that your child (from the sounds of it) is having many educational experiences that can't be quantified on a chart. Maybe you could start some sort of reward system at home?
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Honestly....I think you're WAY overthinking all this. Your kid is 5 years old and in Kindergarten. Kinder doesn't set someone up for the rest of their academic life. No one is going to blacklist your kid because in Kinder he didn't have a million sight words by mid-year. You said uptread that it "never crossed your mind" your kid *wouldn't* be in a gifted program. I don't ask this with snark, but....really? Your natural assumption from the start, before your child can read, it that they are truly gifted? If so, it sounds like you are more bothered by the time put in by other parents whose children are being recognized while your, *obviously/naturally gifted child*, is not.
All that said, I personally think it is absolutely absurd to be giving any kind of academic type awards to 5 year olds at all. I also dislike parents who push too much on anything (academics, sports, whatever) when their kids are not ready. Littles are just getting comfortable with learning, with academia and school at this age. I do also think it is hard to expect a 5 year old to instinctually love reading/learning for the sake of it, instead of for a free pizza. My mom was a SAHM who made every meal from scratch - - that stupid personal pan pizza was a HUGE treat for my brother and I - - and it was a HUGE motivator. Whatever works to get kids interested in reading
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I think everyone budgets their time differently and if a parent decides they want to spend time with their kids by doing sight words together, and the kid doesn't mind it or even likes it, I don't see why that's a problem. If you and your kid DON'T enjoy that, and your kid is motivated enough to stay on track on his own, then that's fine, too. But every decision has its pros and cons and a random pro to spending your time with your kid on sight words in this case is going to be some award at the Thanksgiving feast. Trade offs are just a part of life, no?
Every parent makes a trade off on something and it will have SOME kind of impact on our kids. Some people resent their parents weren't involved enough. Some resent that their parents were too involved and gave too much pressure. There's no perfect way through this. You just have to think about what longterm outcome you want for your kid and your family and make the calls you think will get you there. If that means your kid isn't getting a pizza, then fine. Let's have pizza rolls for dinner then.
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: So, you wrote a lot, and there's a ton to unpack there...but I really think that you just do what you can. Everything is not decided in kindergarten.
it would be super if my kid could go back to reading because he likes it, not because he feels he must check off a box....
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