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@Arden: Well, I think those doctors suck, but it still leaves me kind of torn. On one hand, I don't agree with people having the option to have a c-section when they have no medical reason to do so. On the other hand, it becomes a slippery slope with taking away a women's choice about what she does with her body.
Although technically my choice was taken away when I was forced to have a c-section, because it was needed and an emergency because my son's heart rate kept dropping and he was in danger - I was almost fully dilated, but they were afraid he wouldn't make it through the pushing and said no. So if a c-section is medically unnecessarily and obviously that might put baby in danger, should they have their choice taken away too? That's a tough one for me, for the reasons I listed before about it just being a slippery slope.
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No!
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@Arden: @wonderstruck: If it wasn't safe, no doctor would be able to perform an elective section. At the end of the day, risks are risks, no matter where the risks stem from (delivery types).
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Whatever is best for mom and baby is my idea. For myself, I don't like the thought of an elective c-section. But there are reasons that you need one, like placenta previa, breech birth, and a whole host of things that I don't even know about. We shouldn't judge.
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@MsLipGloss: That is certainly true - I know there are many moms whose vaginal births ended up being more risky and having worse recoveries than I experienced with my emergency c-section.
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@wonderstruck: I am one of those mothers.
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No. I'll just leave it at that.
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@MsLipGloss: I'm sorry
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No.
I will say, that if we moved to a single payer health care system (which I am in support of), the additional cost for a purely elective c-section should be paid for by the patient. Basically I believe people have the right to do what they want with their own bodies. When it has a significant impact on larger society, I draw the line.
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@wonderstruck: Awww, hon. Thanks. I only say that to the extent that I am trying more often to keep an open mind about everything . . . so much of what I thought I would/wouldn't do while pregnant and as a mother just didn't happen/wasn't possible for me. Those expectations--and pressures--added to my struggle to make it all work as a FTM. If I can spare anyone the stress/self-doubt/guilt by empowering them to embrace and accept that all options that result in a healthy baby are good options--and equally good options--then I would like to do just that.
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@MsLipGloss: I think that's a great goal to have! There's just way too much out there that causes FTMs to guilt ourselves, and that just doesn't benefit anyone - mom and baby included! Just seems to help smug people who had parts of pregnancy/labor/parenthood go exactly how they wanted it to feel, well, more smug.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like aside from things like child abuse and not loving your kids, there is absolutely nothing that we should ever mom should or should not do. It's all just mommy wars baiting.
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@MsLipGloss: Yeah, that pretty much sounds horrible. My experience was horrible, too. Childbirth is not at all easy...I wish I was one of those women who had an easy peasy birth story and the baby just fell out while I was lounging on my couch.
I think my problem is that I read another internet message board and will admit to rolling my eyes at the women who post asking for doctors who will do elective c-sections for cosmetic reasons.
I wish every mom could have a trauma-free birth, regardless of the way she birthed.
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@mrsjazz: Omg LOL at "fell out while I was lounging on the couch"! I get the eye rolling for the cosmetic concerns . . . I think, too, that having a traumatic delivery only adds to the eye roll, i.e., child birth is so risky that the least of your concern is gaining a few extra pounds at the end, etc. I totally get where you're coming from!
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Nope. I'm electing to have my very first c section in just 26 days. Why? Because I went the natural route and ended up with fetal demise during labor.
Also, there's breech babies, and very large babies, and many many reasons why choosing to have a c section would be the better option. After all, what matters in the end is that I'm holding my baby alive in my arms at the end of it all.
Also, labor is awful. I never want to go through it again.
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@Opinionslikekittens: I guess I mean any time you have a C-sec that isn't emergency..and there are lots of reasons people decide that, from large babies to breech (like @Arden: and others were saying) to medical/psychological reasons, to just not wanting to labour. In my OP, I meant that people were saying to me, well if you're having a C-sec b/c (insert 'good enough reason' here) then that's fine but it wouldn't be fine if I just wanted one (what they jokingly but insultingly call 'too posh to push' where I'm from).
@MsLipGloss: Yes, +1 to the risks thing and everything you said, basically.
@wonderstruck: @Arden: elective C's for no medical reason are the norm where I come from. So much so that a backlash has started (and I was on the receiving end a bit I think).
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@Dandelion:
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Frankly, this matters to me even less than whether or not a woman breast feeds, and I already care very little about that.
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Not my body, not my choice. The end.
@Arden: Really? Do you have a citation for that? That seems like a MIGHTY big generalization to me. Maybe it's because I'm in Canada where csections must be medically indicated to be performed (socialized health care and all that), but I find sweeping generalizations like that to be dubious.
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Yeeeeah, definitely not my place to judge. How you birth your child is up to you, your partner, and your medical professional(s).
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Here c-section have to be medically indicated, which I don't think is a bad thing. You can have them for reasons like large birth weight baby, but you have to push to have them for a reason like that - I think they strongly encourage vaginal births until the known risks outweigh the benefits. I had a planned c-section for breech, that became an emergency c-section when my water broke. They recommended the c-section over a vaginal attempt, which was fine by me because I wasn't comfortable with the risks of a breech vaginal delivery. Plus I can't imagine that it would have been successful given the position that my daughter was in. With one c-section, I now have the option of choosing what I want to do with subsequent pregnancies.
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I don't know enough about risks/complications about either to really comment.
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@heartonastring: I do, in fact. In this study, 69% of doctors stated that they performed elective (non medically indicated) c-sections upon the mothers request. http://www.annals.edu.sg/pdfSep03/V32N5p577.pdf
That particular study surveyed doctors in the UK where the cesarean rate is lower than in America, leading me to believe that the percentage of doctors willing to perform an elective c/s is even higher in the USA.
It's not a sweeping generalization at all (I work hard to avoid those), it's what I have found through serious research and personal experience in the childbirth field.
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@mskeee: That's really interesting. Where's 'here' - US? I wonder why it's different.
@Silva: funnily enough, a scheduled C is cheaper than a NVD in SA -
Not my body. So no.
I didn't have an overly complicated delivery, but I did/am have(ing) an overly complicated recovery. If I ever decide I want to have another I would have an elected c out of pure convenience to my poooooor vagina.
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@bunnymommy: sorry in Canada they have to be medically indicated. You def can't have a c-section or an induction because like a certain date works best for you, or for cosmetic reasons. If you have a planned medically indicated c-section, you can sort of choose the day - but it's like "do you want Monday or Tuesday". The planned c-sections always performed between 38 and 39 weeks.
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(OP I know this isn't your opinion, so please don't think I'm directing this to you).
I don't see how anyone could make a sweeping statement about a particular birth method like "every mother should try to deliver vaginally" without making huge assumptions about someone else's physical and psychological health, as well as their personality and personal life philosophies. What seems like "convenience" to you could be someone's mental well-being, past traumas, or particular life circumstances on the line.
I've been seeing a lot of this type of judgmental attitude on the web and Facebook a lot lately, and its really starting to rub me the wrong way. Like, as if the mommy wars crap about working or staying home isn't enough. I've had to hide a lot of people from my feed who I really love because of the non-stop posts about lactivism, exclusively breastfeeding, cloth diapering, cosleeping, babywearing, natural childbirthing, etc. And I'm someone who's personally totally on board with most of those things!
There's no one right way to birth or raise a child - it can even be different between children in the same family. People need to get off the soapbox and help and support moms exactly where they are. Share methods and tips and advice in a way that is affirming and supportive of each other's choices, even if its not for you (today) because you may pick up pointers from each other that help in other ways or at other times.
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@mskeee: I wonder if that's b/c it's a universal healthcare system? (It is, hey?) In govt healthcare in SA, you can't choose I don't think. But in pvt healthcare (which is what everyone who can afford it does), you can have a c/s by choice, just because you prefer it. It also has to be between 38 and 39 weeks though
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I made an amazing friend in our prenatal class. She's from SA, and she was absolutely scandalized to find out that in Canada, a scheduled C-section is not a thing. She was further scandalized at all the breast feeding going on here.
Apparently in SA, you get pregnant, you go to the doctor and you schedule your delivery date. And then you go buy bottles. That's just how it is there.
At first, I didn't know what to make of her. But she really helped me see both sides much better. Going through the last bits of pregnancy together, and the first 2 years of our kids' lives together, we both really learned that everyone does it differently, and for the most part, it's not breast feeding or vaginal delivery that cause children to be healthy/well adjusted/well behaved/smart/good looking/happy/screwed up/not screwed up, etc.
I think the best parents are those who are well informed about whatever it is they choose to do (honestly, who looks up "cocaine addiction during pregnancy, does research and then goes to find a drug dealer). I believe parents that have a parenting philosophy, and reasons for that parenting philosophy are probably doing ok.
I'm also a big believer in making a mother as comfortable and supported as possible, especially in the last weeks of pregnancy and first months of motherhood. Whatever can be done to make a mother less worried, anxious, frustrated and uncomfortable should be done (except cocaine, that's bad all around). It's better for everyone if the mama is happy.
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@Arden: Thanks, I appreciate that! I know you're not typically one for inflammatory/unfounded comments, but statements that use words like, "many," "all," "most," etc. tend to trigger my BS alarm. Thanks for the citation.
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@Arden: But really, you have made a sweeping generalization premised on information you have about UK/Singapore docs. While it's definitely food for thought, I don't think it can accurately be used to frame up the situation here in the US. I think what is even more interesting is that over 30% of female (UK) OBs stated that they would themselves choose an elective section. That's another interesting consideration.
And, generally speaking, I don't know that your experience thus far as a doula is enough to support that statement either. If I remember correctly, you are fairly *young* in your career as a doula. I don't know how many docs you have personally dealt with/encountered, but I don't think it's enough at this point to draw/support that kind of a conclusion.
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Yes. IF they have a totally healthy, normal, no-risk pregnancy. But I think as soon as the risks raise, all gets are off and the goal is healthy/happy mom, healthy baby. And just because it's a major surgery, and I don't agree with unnecessary surgeries. In real life, ie not on the internet, I couldn't care less what people do. I'm happy if you're happy.
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@JennyD: haha I LOL'd at 'absolutely scandalized to find out that in Canada, a scheduled C-section is not a thing.' 'All the breastfeeding' being scandalising isn't an SA thing though as far as I'm aware - I BF my LO, as does everyone I know with a baby - it is quite popular and is encouraged by paeds and gynaes (in my experience). (This is me just enjoying talking about what it's like where I'm from, haha)
+1 to everything you said!
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@MsLipGloss: Really, you are using my age to discount my research and experience?
I am a researcher by nature. I read every new study that pertains to the birth field and have for many years. I consistantly sit down with friends and contacts in the medical field and ask questions about their personal experiences and practices. I research birth practices not only here in the US but across the world.
You'll notice my original statement did not specify "doctors in America", I was talking about doctors in general. In many countries, including the one where I grew up, the c-section rate is 75%+, mostly elective. In Brazil that number is closer to 90%.Regardless, the statement remains true in America as well. The current c- section rate in the USA is ~32%. A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (I can't find it at the moment or I would link to it) found that while many of these C-sections are medically indicated, more than half are done on an elective basis. More than half. That doesn't sound like a rarity to me.
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@bunnymommy: oh geez. I saw you were from SA after I posted it, and thought "omg, here we go!"
I didn't realize it was a private vs public healthcare thing.
She and I truly hit it off the first time a group of us from the class went out after we all had our babies, and I ordered coke at lunch, after the other girls ordered water, and then SA friend ordered coke too. I knew we were meant for each other! And yes, we were BOTH BF when we drank coke!!!
I am fascinated with SA and we would love to go sometime. Any of the people I've ever met from SA have been the funniest, most interesting and likeable people I've ever met. Plus I love the accent. Sadly my friend prides herself on her "Canadian" and her accent is slight.
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@bunnymommy: I think it's sort of an indirect result of public health-care. Like with public health-care you just get medical care, nothing elective. So you get a birth in a medically necessary fashion, and for recovery a bed in a room with other people, 3 square meals a day, all the drugs, nursing help, medical care for the baby and that's pretty much it! So I don't know that it's so much that the taxpayers don't want to pay for elective c-sections or inductions (since they would be paying for birth anyway) it's that they wouldn't fall under medical care.
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@heartonastring: No worries, I probably should have used less aggressive wording in the first place. I just get my dander up a bit when people say "Well if the doctor did it I'm sure there was a valid medical reason". I'm in no way against c-sections when medically indicated, but the rate of c-sections we have in the USA is far beyond the levels they would be if performed only when needed, and it's sadly contributing to our poor maternal and infant mortality outcomes.
The maternal mortality rate for c-sections is 13 per 100,000 and for vaginal birth 3.5 per 100,000 in the developed world. The UK National Health Service gives the risk of death for the mother as three times that of a vaginal birth.
That's such a sobering number.I'm actually not against allowing elective c-sections - I just think doctors should have very serious talks with prospective patients and make sure they understand the increased risk. Informed consent is really what I care about.
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As long as the risks are known, I don't have a problem with women choosing to deliver via a c-section regardless of the reason. And not to get controversial, but in the same vein, I don't care about the reason a woman would choose to get an abortion.
@Silva: I agree and would have a different opinion if we have universal healthcare - which I too want.
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@Arden: To be fair, @MsLipGloss: said "young in your career." A 40 year old could be young in their career.
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@JennyD: haha too funny
Ya, well in public healthcare, everything is really different and sometimes (often I think) the moms come in already in labour and it's the first time they've seen any healthcare professionals...so it's not even ever really a NVD vs c/s debate. I'm so happy you made a lovely S.African friend 
You should definitely go! I am so endlessly proud of the good things in SA, I'm a little walking travel advert to visit there haha
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@Arden: Those are interesting numbers - my OBGYN told us that the safest way to deliver a baby (for mom and baby) is an uncomplicated NVD. Second safest, schedule C. Then a complicated NVD, finally emergency C. But she said that uncomplicated NVDs are rare (at least in her experience/in the SA context) *shrugs* That isn't why we chose a c/s but I wonder what's behind those numbers. Do they explain?
@mskeee: Makes sense!
Ya, well in public healthcare, everything is really different and sometimes (often I think) the moms come in already in labour and it's the first time they've seen any healthcare professionals...so it's not even ever really a NVD vs c/s debate. I'm so happy you made a lovely S.African friend 
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