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@Jruess: It's not true that no one is concerned for the business owners and property owners. No one has said that at all. I think the whole situation stinks for the entire community. For the business owners who have ruined property, I feel horrible for them, I don't think ruining people's property should be part of protest. Some of the people protesting live there. I know some people in that area have opened their homes to reporters and people who were sprayed by tear gas. I also know that someone who lives in the neighborhood was attacked yesterday by protesters--so I'm following reporters reporting everything that is happening as they can, not just the peaceful stuff.
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@Jruess: I guess I don't understand how the rights of the business owners and other individuals are being violated by protests. Nor how being spit at justifies rubber bullets and tear gas?
And so what is the whole "un-biansed" picture? How is the media not covering this accurately? It might help if they [the media] weren't harassed and arrested in a McDonald's while filing a story. -
@MrsMed: Or had tear gas thrown at them, their cameras dismantled. Or being told to shut their cameras off.
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@loveisstrange: That's being kept really quiet. Where did you read that or see that reported?.
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@MrsMed: Thank you.
TBH, I get frustrated when people talk about the "biased" media. In my experience, that happens most often when what is reported is not what people want to hear. That doesn't mean it's not accurate. Speaking for myself and all of my friends who are journalists, we actually work really hard and do very intense research to make sure we give as accurate a picture as possible. Are there some reporters who will be influenced by their own biases? Of course, just as there are people who abuse every profession. But the work people are doing in places like Ferguson is difficult, exhausting, and sometimes scary. It bothers me to see them be accused of biased reporting when they're suffering unconstitutional abuse at the hands of cops in order to file their stories. And it would be a lot easier to report the whole story if the people in charge would be more transparent.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Local news, a couple days ago. I'll see if I can find it.
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I'm just saying that in my mind the protestors lost some amount of trust after their actions Sunday night.
And there is no way the media is able to cover the entire story or always provide an unbiased portion of the information they are told. I just feel like people read one thing, assume it is the whole truth and form an opinion. My point is to keep an open mind. We have no idea what the police knows or why they act the way they do.
I have not read the stories about the media being attacked in a mcdonalds, I'm speaking specifically to the tactics used to disperse the crowds.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: This isn't the article I originally saw, but this talks about it.
"Some have complained about how long Brown's body was in the street. Jackson said Brown's body was left on the street to make sure the investigation wasn't compromised. He did not say exactly how long it was before Brown's body was removed.
"You only get one chance at that crime scene," Jackson said. "We wanted to make sure we got it right."
He said shots were fired from a nearby building several times while investigators were working, slowing the investigation."
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@MrsSCB: YES. "Biased media" has become a code phrase/excuse, much like the term "family values".
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@MrsSCB: I apologize as I wasn't trying to imply journalists are intentionally reporting biased info. I'm just saying they can't and don't have the full story.
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@Jruess: But if you've read what some of the people on this thread have been saying--none of us are getting our information from one source. We are all smart individuals who find our news from multiple sources. None of us has the full picture but there are some things that can't be denied though, that keeping an open mind doesn't work (um, I'm not keeping an open mind about the fact that an unarmed kid is dead. I'm not keeping an open mind about the 1st amendment rights of reporters being violated).
Transparency from the police department would help. There seems to be this idea that because police officers are supposed to uphold the law that they themselves are above the law, or are these god-like, highly moral creatures. We all know this isn't true, they are human like the rest of us.
People who looted and vandalized businesses on Sunday are not necessarily the same people who are protesting now. From various reports I have read, some of the looters weren't even from the neighborhood.
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@Jruess: Thank you, and you're right that it's literally impossible to ever get the "whole" story. But I don't think that means someone is biased, just that complete and total information about an incident will never be available unless there happens to be video of it happening. I do know that reporters covering this particular incident are dealing with a lot of really tough situations that are unfortunately infringing on their ability to get the rest of us as complete a story as possible. It's just an all-around terrible situation.
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@MrsSCB: agreed. My whole point in commenting on any of this is just that it's a tough situation for everyone involved and before passing judgement we should keep in mind we don't know everything.
I guess I am just naive and believe the majority of the police force are out there putting their lives on the line to protect me and my family and are trying to make the best decisions we can.
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@Jruess: And I guess I'm saying that the police in Ferguson are clearly concerned with protecting some people and not others. And, being downright abusive and out of control with those groups they aren't interested in protecting. And that's not the America I want to live in.
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@MrsJazz: Thank you. Well said/explained.
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@loveisstrange: thanks, that is more detailed than other reports I have read with all the quotes from people on the ground.
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The entire situation makes my blood boil. I can't believe that anyone can hear that an unarmed kid was shot in the back and not feel horrified. I am constantly afraid for my family. I can't deal with the idea of having to explain the concept of 'walking while black' to my child.
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@jetsa: @loveisstrange: sorry, I should have been more clear in my original post. I meant to say that my in-laws and other people from the area speak of the race issue in general from a standpoint of personal safety, and this creates imo a powderkeg situation of racial division and frustration. Then an incident like Michael Brown being killed is the spark that ignites it. What I meant was, like so many American communities, the racism is there and needs to be addressed. This situation illustrates some of the injustices faced by members of communities like Ferguson.
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@Jruess: Here are a few links detailing abuses by police. One man was beaten to death by police and while his family looked on he was propped up by an officer to pretend like he was still breathing. Another link is of the mentally ill California man beaten to death by police. The last link discusses New York's stop and frisk law.
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@Jruess: I will also add that living in NYC I see the police routinely stop people for no apparent reason other than their colour. I think the deadspin article laid it out to perfection, America is not for black people.
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Is anyone else irked at how Michael Brown is often described- "unarmed black teen"? As if being unarmed is unusual or if he was armed the shooting would have been justified. To me that reeks of bias.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: what annoys me more is the fact that everyone who knows him has to explain that he was a good kid, college bound etc. As if his life was worthless otherwise.
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@MoonMoon: I think I used the phrase "powder keg of racial tension" in my very first post in this thread. I have heard many comments from people like your in-laws. I grew up in North County and went to college in a more affluent, primarily white suburb outside of Saint Louis County. I got many, MANY comments like "did you grow up in the ghetto?" "aren't you scared?" "I don't cross the river, because i'll get shot". Im very familiar with it. The racism is there and it does need to be addressed, you are correct about that.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: @plantains: There's a really good article I read (forget where, but I bookmarked) that talks about how people keep talking about how he was going to college, was a good kid, etc. BUT, it shouldn't matter if he was about to go hang out on the street and do nothing the Monday after he got shot--he still wouldn't have deserved this.
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@mrsjazz: Just like in the Eric Gardner incident when they started claiming he was selling 'illegal cigarettes', what does that have to do with anything? Why should someone be killed with zero regard? The total lack of compassion for fellow human beings is staggering.
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@mrsjazz: I think that might be the Deadspin article: "By all accounts, Brown was One Of The Good Ones. But laying all this out, explaining all the ways in which he didn't deserve to die like a dog in the street, is in itself disgraceful. Arguing whether Brown was a good kid or not is functionally arguing over whether he specifically deserved to die, a way of acknowledging that some black men ought to be executed."
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@plantains: @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: This is the article: http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/michael_brown_and_our_obsession_with_respectable_black_victims.html?wpisrc=topstories
This starts from the time kids are in school. Black boys can do the same "boys will be boys/kids will be kids" things that their white counterparts do and will be: given harsher punishments, suspended, expelled. Our boys don't get to be little, innocent, sweet boys, they get to be thugs and little thugs.
Black teens and men who commit the same crimes as their white counterparts are given harsher sentences, no slap on the wrists for them. Once a teen has gone to prison, that's pretty much a set up for how the rest of his life is going to go. And so on and so forth.
This is a systemic problem that has been ignored, swept under the rug, or blamed completely on black people. How do we build ourselves up as a community when almost everything in this country is set up for us to fail?
@plantains: I know. When I first heard that Eric Gardner had been previously arrested for selling loosies, I said, "so the fuck what?" Are these people serious?
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@MrsSCB: I probably read it there, too. I keep coming back to that Deadspin article. It's really tough to read but should be read by everyone.
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From the article (if you don't have a chance to read the whole thing):
"OK? And what if Monday was to have been his first day of standing on the corner not doing a damn thing? Would his death be less of a loss?
Let me be clear: Unarmed college hopefuls don't deserve to be shot. Unarmed kids heading to work or trade school don't deserve to be shot. Unarmed kids floundering aimlessly through life don't deserve to be shot. Unarmed kids who have been in trouble—even those who have been nothing but trouble—don't deserve to be shot.
The act of pinning the tragedy of a dead black teen to his potential future success, to his respectability, to his "good"-ness, is done with all the best intentions. But if you read between the lines, aren't we really saying that had he not been on his way to college, there'd be less to mourn?
That's dead wrong."
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@plantains: @mrsjazz: @MrsSCB: Exactly, people should just be able to live. I am saddened that more people are not outraged by this. An officer killed a teenager. The officer should have been immediately put on unpaid administrative leave showing that the local officials and law enforcement understand this is a tragedy not just an incident.
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@mrsjazz: yes, last time I checked selling cigarettes was not a crime punishable by death. Everyone that says I don't know exactly what went down with regard to Michael Brown is implying that maybe, just maybe, he deserved to die, and I'd realize that if I'd wait to pass judgment.
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@MoonMoon: People blamed Trayvon Martin for his own murder roo.
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His name should have been released. Police officers are not above the law.
While I respect a lot of officers and glad to have them around, there needs to be good evaluation of officers ability to make sound judgement. One of my friends came back from Iraq with severe PTSD and was immediately recruited by a bunch of police departments. After going through training he made a tough decision to not become an officer, though he could have used the money. He said he'd been shot at too many times and knew the wrong sound or movement could set him off and he'd end up hurting someone who didn't deserve it. I was impressed at his self evaluation and horrified at bringing someone back from a war zone without proper evaluation of whether they could functionally serve a non warzone community.
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Also: When The Media Treats White Suspects And Killers Better Than Black Victims
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.htmlAnd you guys should check out the #IfTheyGunnedMeDown hashtag on Twitter. It's pretty amazing. And sad.
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@mrsjazz: damn, I didn't even hear about John Crawford.
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@mrsjazz: have you read that article about preschoolers being suspended and the white moms being shocked because their kids had done the same things? I need to read the deadspin article.
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@scg00387: Yep. I read it. I think it was the woman with the two little boys. I am seriously thankful I have a little girl, though according to this that doesn't necessarily matter:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspendedAnd also this Op-Ed from Charles Blow yesterday in the Times spells it out better than I can: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/opinion/charles-blow-michael-brown-and-black-men.html
And yes, I consume a lot of news! I can't help it.
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@mrsjazz: I was just going to comment with that hashtag info- it's really sad and eye-opening, and everyone should check it out on Twitter/ IG.
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Now that I am on a computer and not trying to type on my phone during my training at work, let me try to articulate myself better.
I'm simply trying to say that there are two sides to every story. It is true that the fact is an unarmed teenager was shot on Saturday. Beyond that, I've heard two very different stories from each side through local media. I am by no means trying to condone the officer's actions but I was not there so I do not know exactly what happened. I can only hope and pray that the truth comes out.
I also don't know the specific's on why the police are employing the tactics they are using or what goes into the decision to disperse the crowd (or their actions towards the media) but maybe they have other information not available to the public, such as threats, reports or actual acts of violence. In such situations, as someone who lives in the city of St. Louis, I am fully supportive if the police decide to break up the protestors. It is my understanding that they ask the crowd to disperse prior to using any other tactics and people are protesting throughout the day. In such a tense environment, it only takes one spark to ignite the mob mentality and I don't think anyone wants a repeat of Sunday evenings events.
@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I understand and completely agree that horrific abuses of police power have occurred. There are bad people in all professions and walks of life who commit unimaginable acts of violence. I'm specifically speaking to this situation.
To believe all police officers think they are above the law and can act in any manner they see fit would be a very sad and scary world to live in.
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@grizz: I don't know any police in real life, would you mind advising what your husband's department would train officers to do in this case?
My husband thinks either account (officer and witnesses) warranted use of the officer shooting the teen. Further he says officers are trained to kill not mame, so if a gun is drawn a death will likely occur.
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