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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Police officers are not trained to kill. My husband was taught that his gun should be his last resort, and only used to uphold the oath he took - to serve and protect citizens.
This thread has a lot of people painting officers with one brush - that they are all bad, scary, cold blooded monsters. I'm not really inclined to participate any further based on that fact. I feel like I'm being baited at this point, intentional or not.
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@grizz: coming from a family of police officers, it's making me sad too. Most police officers are really good, honest, hard working, fair people.
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@grizz: Thanks for your coming back here to respond to my question.
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@grizz: @swedishfish: agreed, both my BILs are officers and you couldn't find two better people.
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I don't think anyone is painting police officers with one brush. No one has said they are all scary monsters. What we have been saying is that 1) the officer's name should have been released 2) the way the police department has been handling the protests has included excessive force and violation of rights 3) there have been a number of these situations where police have been killing unarmed black boys/men 4) police officers are not above the law and they should be punished for any wrongdoings just as civilians are.
I've had great experiences with police officers. I've had not so great experiences with police officers. I have a friend and a family member who are police officers. They are great people. But that's not the point here. We are talking about officers who kill unarmed people and/or use unwarranted excessive force.
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@grizz: I agree completely and I know too many great police officers to believe that all are these horrible people that they are being made out to be in this thread.
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Also as far as he tear gas goes Abc news has reported that: "Police lobbed tear gas to repel a crowd of about 150 protesters, some of whom had thrown Molotov cocktails and rocks at officers."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-images-fuel-outrage-st-louis-24988122Which goes back to Jreuss's comment that there are 3 sides to every story.
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This is a overview of that hashtag @mrsjazz is talking about. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2014/08/14/iftheygunnedmedown-a-scathing-attack-on-media-portrayals-of-black-people-killed-by-police/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SociologicalImagesSeeingIsBelieving+%28Sociological+Images%3A+Seeing+Is+Believing%29
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It is such a sad situation. The deadspin article had many great points, especially about the militarization of police and the justification of the boy's undeservedness.
Re: police. I think the militarization is a huge problem, not necessarily with individual officers, with the system. You can say "the police" are the problem, without meaning individual policemen are at fault. I would imagine even if you had a problem with what was going on as a policeman, it would be very hard to break ranks. I also think it is incredibly easy, much more so than we like to admit, to develop an "us vs. them" mentality which can just spiral downhill easily, especially when power imbalances are involved. I think this highlights an ongoing issue of structural violence. The police officers might not be bad people, I'm sure many are very good. But they have access to power and capital unavailable to many residents of Ferguson, and that is a problem.
Relatedly, there was a local case about a foreign exchange student who was shot upon entering someone's garage. Many people had the response "well, he shouldn't have been trespassing." Even so, that is not a crime punishable by death without trial.
http://missoulian.com/news/local/slain-german-exchange-student-didn-t-burgle-shooter-s-garage/article_054e6398-da32-11e3-977d-0019bb2963f4.html -
@jedeve: thank you for putting that so articulately. I wanted to, but couldn't find the right words.
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@jedeve: that was such a sad story!
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@grizz: agree with lots of what you said.. I wrote out a whole long answer but I just don't feel like arguing with people.
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@grizz: I agree with you, it's pathetic how everyone wants to talk badly about police officers when they do things like this, but ignore the other 99% that are doing their job properly or doing great things for the community.
@googly-eyes: and ditto to that, too. I have a loooot to say about all this but I enjoy HB so some things are better left unsaid.
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@lawbee11: Finally.
I also don't know where people seem to have gotten the idea that people are maligning all officers here. Like @mrsjazz: said, no one is painting them with one brush. I'm not about to read all the comments again but I don't recall anyone saying all police officers are evil. In fact, I'm sure most are good, well-intentioned people. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out about abuses to the job, which is what is happening here.
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@jedeve: Thank you.
This is not an attack on all police officers and a lot of people are taking it that way, taking it personally. Sometimes people's personal biases don't allow them to see the larger issues being discussed, I have been guilty of this many times.
@lawbee11: Thanks for posting that, I have tried to stay away from the news this morning because it's been making me too upset, but I see they released the officer's name and more of his side of the events. I like that they named a new officer to lead the police efforts who is from the area and actually marched with protestors.
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Great read and a more positive tone: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/with-highway-patrol-hugs-and-kisses-replace-tear-gas-in-ferguson/
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html
Here are more details from the Ferguson police department including the incident report docs detailing why he was stopped. In short, Michael Brown stole cigarettes.
Edited corrected info, thanks LoveisStrange.
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This is a riveting read: http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: They said from probably the day after the incident that the cop approached the two boys because of a robbery at a nearby convenience store.
I feel like there has been a lot said in local news that has not been said in national news...
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@MrsSCB: I agree. I think some are taking these comments a little too personally and reading more into it than they should. No one denies that being a cop is a really tough job, nor is anyone saying that cops are all bad people. I have friends who are cops, but that doesn't stop me from being objective when talking about this tragedy.
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@jedeve: very well said!
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My husband was stopped by the police because he matched the description of a bank robber. Even though the crime they were investigating (armed bank robbery ) was more serious than the crime they were looking for in Browns case (unarmed cigar stealing) the police handled everything a lot more gently and professionally. When I showed up I was so relieved with how everything was handled. The officers could have escalated the situation to try and get more of a rise out of my husband and absolutely didn't even though DH was a little annoyed with being stopped.
I don't think anyone's calling police evil but at the same time for the cops I know at least there are really nice people and assholes just like in any profession. And when someone dies it should be investigated openly, it's a danger to the public for it not to be.
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@loveisstrange: I've seen news reports that mentioned Brown as being suspected of robbing/stealing cigarettes/cigars. Don't have the sources or anything, so I'm not sure if they are local or national, but it was readily available online. But the reports I did read had conflicting information, one said a clerk said it wasn't Brown.
There's also a video on YT of an alleged eyewitness who talks about how the shooting went down and mentioned that Brown had stolen some cigarettes from that convenience store earlier in the day.
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@mrsjazz: Ive read conflicting information too. I kind of just wish they'd stop reporting anything until they have finished gathering evidence and have a clearer picture of what happened. Right now, there is just way too much that is up in the air.
I saw the stills from the convenience store too.
Still, stealing some cigarettes shouldn't be a death sentence. Hell, even punching a cop shouldn't be.
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@mrsjazz: the link I posted earlier today has documents embedded with the stills @loveisstrange described.
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OMFG. Now the police chief just said the officer who shot Brown DIDN'T KNOW that he was suspected in a robbery. So then why are they even talking about that today? Not that it matters either way, because stealing cigars doesn't warrant being shot in the street. But I swear, it's like the Ferguson officers read a book called, "The Worst Way to Do Everything." I mean...There are no words.
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@MrsSCB: ok...so stopping Brown was unrelated. I would still like to know what is the protocol police are supposed to follow in situations like the one Officer Wilson says occurred. Is the shooting against protocol or not?
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: This is a really thorough article that addresses that issue. I think the most helpful part is under the heading "The legal standards governing justifiable force." http://www.vox.com/2014/8/13/5994305/michael-brown-case-investigation-legal-police-kill-force-murder
"Constitutionally, "police officers are allowed to shoot under two circumstances," says Klinger. The first circumstance is "to protect their life or the life of another innocent party" — what departments call the "defense-of-life" standard. The second circumstance is to prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect's committed a serious violent felony."
ETA: Given that he didn't know about the alleged robbery, I don't think the second thing applies. The chief said Brown and his friend were stopped for walking down the middle of the street.
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@MrsSCB: This is crazy. The officer didn't even know about the robbery?!?! Walking in the middle of the street? So they were jaywalking. Cigar theft and/or jaywalking, never knew those offenses carried a death sentence.
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@MrsSCB: thanks for posting that link. I found this part interesting.
"There's a difference between the moment you cease to be a threat and the moment I perceive that you ceased to be a threat," says Klinger. And Katz points out that if an officer has been assaulted and the suspect runs away, the assessment is probably going to be shaped by having just been assaulted. But, Katz says, "one can't just say, 'Because I could use deadly force ten seconds ago, that means I can use deadly force again now.'"
A struggle at the car doesn't mean deadly force can be used 25 feet down the street. Using Officer Wilson's account, now I wonder if he Brown's actions would be considered a violent crime to justify the use of deadly force.
After reading the article I am surprised the officer that choked the NYC man has not been charged with a crime yet. The choke hold was against department policy and the victim was not suspected of a violent crime and the video didn't show the victim posing a threat to anyone or him fleeing the scene.
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I haven't read much on this because I can't take much more of this. His body was in the street for hours and they cut off emergency help?
WTF? Low down as hell.
I'll be truthful, I run and walk to my town's square with my daughter in the jogging stroller, I live a mile away from it. I am always on alert and get wary when I see a police officer. None have stopped me yet, but I often think about one doing it, even if I am the "exercising mom".
With the way stuff is in the news, I can't help it.
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@MrsSCB: That was a really good article. Thank you for posting.
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@AprilFool: you're welcome! Vox is pretty new -- they have a lot of really great, in-depth posts.
Still, stealing some cigarettes shouldn't be a death sentence. Hell, even punching a cop shouldn't be.
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