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George Zimmerman - Guilty or Innocent?

  1. meganmp

    persimmon / 1420 posts

    Did you guys see the thing (posted by George Takai, where I get all of my news) about the woman in Florida who was just given TWENTY YEARS for firing WARNING SHOTS at her allegedly abusive husband? She used the same "Stand Your Ground" defense that Zimmerman used. Hmmm.

  2. Mrsbells

    squash / 13199 posts

    @meganmp: yes I saw that on Friday. People are using that to back up their allegations that the stand your ground laws favor certain groups over others because she didn't even hurt anybody with her gunshot

  3. CupQuakeWalk

    coconut / 8475 posts

    @meganmp: are you effing kidding me........

  4. Mrs. Lemon-Lime

    wonderful pea / 17279 posts

    I am not surprised by the verdict because the state did not prove their case, I am just dissappointed their was not a penalty for blatant stalking, harrasment and use of deadly force.

    This is why mother's of brown babies have a different kind of talk with their sons when they reach puberty...how to minimize being a target, what to do when (not if) they are stopped.

  5. Mrs. Lemon-Lime

    wonderful pea / 17279 posts

    @bluestriped bee: He was not shot in the head. He was shot in the chest. The bullet pierced his heart and blood gushed for as many as 3 minutes or of his body. His death was painful.

  6. MrsTiz

    cantaloupe / 6800 posts

    I'm not surprised at all.

    People in my neighborhood were outside cheering and lighting fireworks after the verdict. So tacky.

    I agree with the verdict but feel bad for the Martins. .

  7. Mrs D

    grapefruit / 4545 posts

    @MrsTiz: Ditto...the verdict is appropriate because the state did not properly make their case. Truth-be-told we will never know the real motives (unless we choose to believe Zimmerman) but self defense is hard to argue against beyond a reasonable doubt.

    I agree with the verdict - but like you agree that no one should be celebrating because a life was still lost. Hopefully the media will shut up about this now...rather than try to stir up riots...

  8. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @Mrs D: unfortunately all the talking heads have done this morning is pull in Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, who are practically begging for a riot.

    It's tragic, a young man lost his life. But starting a race war and trying to incite riots through all this talk of "if GZ had been black and TM had been white..." will not bring Trayvon back. I wish they'd let the family mourn in peace and try to be constructive, not destructive.

  9. Mrs D

    grapefruit / 4545 posts

    @septemberlove: Ya - today will be a no tv kind of day...I just cant handle media at all anymore!

  10. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: that's heartbreaking to imagine having that kind of talk

  11. Mrs. Jacks

    blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts

    @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I plan on having that talk even with my brown daughter. I think the message that was sent was that brown kids are not worthy of the same rights as white kids and I think the fall out from this is that people will think they can be more aggressive with black kids. I need to protect my baby from that!

    @septemberlove: I'm not sure how Rev. Al is begging for a riot. Sounds like he's sharing his feelings about how justice wasn't served for Trayvon.

    I agree that the prosecution did not prove their case. They needed to focus more on intent and the events leading up to the altercation.

    But for me, the decision doesn't make Zimmerman any more or less guilty than he was before. Only he knows deep in his heart what happened that night and his true judgment will come when he stands before his maker, not in a court of law.

  12. mrs. bird

    bananas / 9628 posts

    @MrsTiz: OMG, they were celebrating?!?! i wouldn't have had to leave. i don't believe in celebrating death, ever. that is disgusting, i can't even wrap my head around cheering over this.

  13. googly-eyes

    GOLD / pomelo / 5737 posts

    @meganmp: @Mrsbells: I saw that too but the situation was pretty different according to the prosecution. She actually got away from him and came back with a gun and fired these "warning shots." If that's truthfully how it happened (didnt really follow that case, just read a little about it after) thats way different than the GZ case... The sentencing laws are interesting though.

  14. Mrsbells

    squash / 13199 posts

    @Mrs. Jacks: @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Definitely need to have that talk! Its sad but I remember a fox news person saying that parents of blacks and hispanics shouldnt let their children wear hoodies.. How can I explain to my child that her skin color means she automatically looks suspicious in certain clothing, but her non ethnic minority friends are okay to wear hoodies and wont look suspicious in them

    Also I think everyone should pray for the family of Trayvon Martin. As a parent I just cannot imagine how it must feel to watch the person that shot your child in the heart go free and then celebrate it.

  15. Mrs. Lemon-Lime

    wonderful pea / 17279 posts

    @Mrsbells: The other day while I was getting my hair done I was chatting with my white stylist and her coworker, another white stylist about the trial. They both greatly disliked that TM was able dead, but offered excuses for why GZ profiled him.

    They said TM was practically a man. I remember my bro and I his friends at 17. They are teens: immature, lanky, awkward etc. I said we throw out wether someone is a teen or a man when it's convenient. Media uses "boys will be boys" to excuse bad behavior from even older teens, college students. Let's not paint the black 17 yr old teen as a man, just because YOU find him scary.

    They also said what if TM had a gun. GZ didn't know that. WTH! Let's deal with the facts TM didn't have a gun, didn't own a gun. And GZ didn't know anything about him exceot that he WWB. Walking While Black.

    Lastly, they brought up the hoodie as if that is suspicious clothing. I said if I have a son he will look like Trayvon and both of them told meI hopefully i willI teach him not to wear a hoodie. Really?! Mark Zuckerberg wears a hoodie. Check out any college campus and you will see hoodies and pajama bottoms as the "school uniform." I have a hoodie and when it's raining outside, like the night of TM's muder, I put the hood up to offer protection from the rain.

    Different rules. So, so sad.

  16. MsLipGloss

    GOLD / pineapple / 12662 posts

    @septemberlove: I wonder how many people know that George Zimmerman is Hispanic, and not White . . .

  17. Mrs. Lemon-Lime

    wonderful pea / 17279 posts

    @MsLipGloss: I know he is Hispanic. His race doesn't change bias. Many people hold prejudices within their own community and toward other communities even when they are considered a minority. GZ's race certainly doesn't change the outrage that again another black young man was pegged as a criminal and is dead shortly thereafter.

    Living in Florida I am more aware of the biases held in the Hispanic community be it colorism, country of origin, station in life or length their family has been in the US. Many of my Hispanic HS classmates self-identified as white. My HS Spanish teacher Ms. Jiminez used to speak ill of these students under her breath.

  18. Mrsbells

    squash / 13199 posts

    @MsLipGloss: he is actually half white and half hispanic. His family has shown a lot of racism and his brother even tweeted "that blacks are risky"

  19. Mrsbells

    squash / 13199 posts

    @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: yep, it is the sad reality...

  20. MrsSCB

    pomelo / 5257 posts

    @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: exactly, I don't think him being Hispanic changes anything and i do think that most people who have been following this case are aware. Also, not that it necessarily matters for this case, but Hispanic is not defined as a race anyway -- you can have black Hispanics, white Hispanics etc., which is why forms always list things like "Caucasian, non-Hispanic" or "non-white Hispanic."

  21. mrsjazz

    coconut / 8234 posts

    @septemberlove: I don't know what you're watching but I haven't seen Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson "begging for a riot." Everything I see is talking about being peaceful and reactions to what many see as justice not being served.

    The reality of the matter is that people aren't trying to start a race war with the talks of if Zimmerman had been black and Trayvon white but are discussing how stereotypes continue to affect black and brown boys and men. I wrote that I hope I never have a son because raising a black boy in America is not something my heart can take.

    @MsLipGloss: Being Hispanic doesn't change his profiling of Trayvon Martin being suspicious. Hispanic is not a race, it's a culture. I know plenty of Hispanics, especially Cubans in Miami who identify as White.

  22. mrsjazz

    coconut / 8234 posts

    @Mrs. Jacks: Yes. I will be having that talk with my daughter, too. We've already had an incident in our neighborhood about race. It's pretty sad.

  23. yoursilverlining

    eggplant / 11824 posts

    @MsLipGloss: he is white. Whites can identify as Hispanic, but Hispanic is not a race.

  24. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @mrsjazz: I think when they sit there and talk about what if this and what if that about the races being reversed and insisting the outcome would've been different, that's not begging for peace and acceptance of the verdict. No one will ever know what would've happened if their races were reversed. They can speculate all day long but no one can say with certainty that the outcome would've been different. I'm not sure i agree with GZ walking free but the last thing I want is more violence.

  25. Mrsbells

    squash / 13199 posts

    Wouldnt it be something if everyone could get to switch races for a while and gain a better understanding of what it is like on the other side. I think that would really change our perceptions of what is fair

  26. Mrs. Jacks

    blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts

    @Mrsbells: yes!

    @septemberlove: I think we do a lot of speculation in life and it's not an unhealthy exercise. From "what would have happened if I had done better in that class" to "what would life be like if x,y or z had happened". Is it only race that you think we shouldn't speculate about? Or everything?

  27. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @Mrs. Jacks: I don't think speculation is unhealthy but my fear is that continuously saying the verdict would've been different had the races been switched may provoke more violence. I wish everyone could focus on trying to bring about something positive in Trayvon's name.

  28. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @Mrsbells: that would be eye-opening for sure!

  29. Mrs. Jacks

    blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts

    @septemberlove: I respectfully disagree. Inciting violence would be "go get a gun and harm people"

    Remember all those tea partiers calling for second amendment remedies? THAT is calling for violence. Asking people to think about what would be like if roles were reversed is asking people to think about the other side of things.

  30. daniellemybelle

    cantaloupe / 6669 posts

    I watched a bit of the trial, and I don't think the prosecution did a very good job presenting their case. The jury could not say he was guilty of the charges presented beyond a reasonable doubt. Heartbreaking, because what Zimmerman did was irrefutably wrong. I don't understand how, if you get in a fight because you stalk someone based on nothing other than their appearance, you are justified in shooting them? Why does it matter who the "aggressor" is? Zimmerman was the aggressor for starting it all to begin with, but Florida law is so broken.

  31. MsMamaBear

    pear / 1861 posts

    @mrsjazz: I know it's bad to say, but I was glad I had a daughter. Like you, I just couldn't take it if she'd have been a boy. I'll still talk to her though of course.

  32. mrsjazz

    coconut / 8234 posts

    @septemberlove: The last thing I want is more violence, but I don't think discussing the verdict incites more violence. I've been happy to see that people in my network are discussing the verdict and what actions we can take so that something like this doesn't happen again. Something besides telling our boys that they can't wear hoodies when they go out at night.

    Sometimes I wish what @Mrsbells: said was true, that people could switch races. I'd sign up for the experiment!

    @MsMamaBear: I don't know if you follow Melissa Harris-Perry but she said something on her show that resonated with me:

    “We live in such a racially segregated country that trying to do the best thing for your kids, you think, ok, we’ll go live in the black neighborhood. We’ll live in a predominately African-American community. One of the things we know is that those communities are often plagued with crime that takes the lives of African-American children. It is the reality that most young black men, 17, 18 who die in this country from gunshot wounds, from violence die at the hands of other African-American men. So here you want to live in the community, but then you think maybe I can’t. So then maybe you move to a community like the one where Trayvon Martin’s father was living. Where you have the gated community. You feel safe letting your kid walk over at seven o’clock to the 7-11, and pick up some candy during the game. The idea that that community too is not safe, because they can be profiled and potentially victimized by violence by those who will see them as not belonging there. I don’t know that I can express, but I want to try that it begins to feel like there is no place that you can be, no choice that you can make, no home that you can buy, no place where you can put your kid in school where it is safe. And I think this is what Newtown families felt when their own beautiful little children who were sitting in their own elementary school were gunned down, and they said whoa, wait a second, what is happening in a country where you can’t be safe in an elementary school, but I think that is a feeling that is so familiar and brought home by this case for so many of us. That there is no safe place.”

  33. yoursilverlining

    eggplant / 11824 posts

    I don't think discussing racial inequalities in the justice system incites more violence more than a verdict like this bolsters some white "cowboys" who say things like "these a&^holes, they always get away" (GZ's words) to act more violently towards groups of people they assume are criminals.

    For people who think the media has created a racial crime where none was; there never is a good time to talk about the racial inequalities in our justice system. Talk about it after a case like this - you're inciting violence. Talk about it any other time and you're race baiting. The fact is there are huge racial inequalities in our country, in our justice system, in our media; everywhere. And it isn't going to get any better until people start to talk about it all the time, and do something about it.

    There have been several studies about Stand Your Ground laws (even if this case wasn't explicitly one), and racial bias. This article is pretty good at summing up the data comparing white-on-white homicide and white-on-black homicide. A white person using SYG is 350% more likely to be found not guilty of murdering a black person than a white person who kills another white person and uses SYG. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/07/13/stand-your-ground-laws-increases-racial-bias-in-justifiable-homicide-trials/



  34. Mrs. Jacks

    blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts

    @yoursilverlining: Thank you so much for bringing data to the discussion.

  35. MrsSCB

    pomelo / 5257 posts

    @yoursilverlining: WOW, that is depressing. Although unfortunately not altogether surprising. Ugh.

  36. Boheme

    papaya / 10473 posts

    I see this whole situation from the standpoint of being a momma. Whether you believe it was race driven or not, you cannot dispel the fact that there is a mom out there who lost her baby boy and got no justice. As the mom of a son myself, my heart is broken for Trayvon Martin's mother.

  37. sorrycharlie

    hostess / watermelon / 14932 posts

    @grizz: completely agree. I don't have a son but I am still so sad for his family.

  38. lomom

    nectarine / 2127 posts

    @grizz: absolutely. Sybrina Fulton is an amazingly strong woman.

  39. plantains

    grapefruit / 4671 posts

    @mrsjazz: I feel the way you do, I am so thankful right now that I have a daughter and at the same time frightened for her. This verdict is essentially saying that black kids don't matter, that they don't deserve justice.

    I also feel saddened that people think that the media is inciting racial violence or a race war. A black kid was racially profiled, stalked and murdered. His attacker got off scot free. If ever there was a time to talk about racism and the negative effects on us I is now.

    People who have never experienced WWB can never understand what it feels like to be constantly followed, searched, denied entry to places etc all based on the colour of your skin. I draw the line at murder. Oscar Grant, Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell, Trayvon Martin...if we don't discuss it now, then when? Kudos to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for continuing to fight.

  40. Mrs. Jacks

    blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts

    @plantains: Great post!

    We went to the park tonight and there were a ton of people out and about. There was a set of 4 brown teen men who were handcuffed and sitting on the curb with 4 cop cars surrounding them in one spot. We passed another spot where there was a black teen who was cuffed and sitting on the curb with 3 cop cars attending to him.

    It's impossible for me to know if they were being profiled, did something wrong or not. All I know is that my faith in the system is shaken and I was VERY skeptical about how they wound up sitting on the curb cuffed on a beautiful Sunday evening. We have got to change the current norm!

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