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@periwinklebee: One other thing I thought of - have you tried hand compressions while nursing? It might help quicker letdown and him get more milk. I used to do this. You can google (there are also some awkward youtube videos :(.)
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@periwinklebee: The staying awake during a feed thing is so hard. I still during night feeds have to vigorously rub E's back or tickle her behind her ears to get her to take a full feed and then she gets topped up with a bottle (I do have supply issues). In regards to bottles my LC told me to try one that was similar to the breast and use a low flow nipple. We still use the Avent with the first nipple even though technically she is at the age where she could move to the next nipple up. That weight gain is great, so I hope you are able to find something that works to keep him up to eat and then sleeps.
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and he's still asleep (of course they picked this time to repoint the bricks on my building which kept me from napping), which now raises the question - do I wake him up to get more calories in or let him sleep in the hopes it will make him a more vigorous eater...
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@snarkybiochemist: Thank you
it's just like - kiddo, why do you insist on sleeping the one place and time I don't want you to sleep and refuse to sleep under any other circumstances? But I know it's a super common issue...and I'm sure just the first of many times that my kid will be doing the exact opposite of what I want 
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@periwinklebee: Both my kids were notorious sleepy eaters on the boob. I literally kept ice packs next to me on the chair and would put it on their face or bellies to shock them awake, but even that would work only half the time.
I did a combination of the following for DS2, who was more of a vigorous eater.
- Nurse while doing the sandwich hold on my boob to increase the flow so that he could drink more before he had a chance to fall asleep. I would nurse through the initial let down on one side, then move to the second breast to get the let down. Then I would change his diaper with a cold wipe then put him back on the first breast again and let him finish on the second breast.
- I kept a blanket on the floor next to my chair and if they fell asleep I would just plop them down there. Within a few minutes, they usually woke up fussing bc they would get startled from their reflexes or because it was colder on the floor or something.
- If they still insisted on sleeping but I knew they hadn't eaten enough, I did a top-off bottle (which they could drink asleep) and then would put them down.
- MOTN feedings I honestly just preferred to bottle feed. It was faster and they didn't fall asleep on the bottle. Even if I had to pump afterwards, I was likely to be able to feed them in 10-15 minutes, put them down, pump for 15 minutes, and get back to bed and buy myself a longer stretch than having to latch a baby and hold them awkwardly against me half-sleeping for hours at a time.
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@mrsjd: I've tried but may be doing it wrong and wasn't sure if it would help - going to google!
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@gingerbebe: Thank you! (as usual) awesome tips!
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@periwinklebee: I think your child sounds like he is sleep deprived, so I would probably let him sleep. I would not wake him to eat until he'd been asleep at least 2 hours. I've let my babies sleep up to 2.5 hours before waking if they are solidly out.
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@mrsjd: googled and I think I was doing it wrong, hoping this will help, thanks!
@gingerbebe: Thank you, I think you're right, going to let him sleep...
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@periwinklebee: another trick from my lc was to run my finger from her mouth to ear along her cheek to encourage deep sucking so she was able to pull more from my breast as she ate.
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@snarkybiochemist: thank you! Going to try this rather than just tickling his face
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I think we've made a lot of progress on getting him to take a full feed - the tips here were super helpful! We're still lucky though to get one nap of 45 minutes during the day - other than that it's mostly sleeping in broken 5 to 10 minute chunks here in there. Night is 1-2 hours between the start of each feed, and he still really wants to cluster feed around the clock, and makes hunger cues - often frantically trying to latch onto my shoulder or whatever - whenever he is around me. We can give him a 3 oz bottle of pumped milk after he has been cluster feeding all evening, and he still will take over an hour to nurse to sleep after. This makes part of me wonder if he is just really hungry and not getting enough, but I think he in part wants to eat as comfort because something else is bothering him. This morning he woke up arching his back and seeming uncomfortable from gas or reflux or something right after I'd finished pumping after his last feed, and was frantically trying to latch on while I tried to calm him. I gave him a bath - which seems to make him much more comfortable - to buy time until the next feed, and he was so content in there for a long time. He even dozed off and was super happy in his crib for awhile after, no hunger cues at all.
I'm not sure what to try next in terms of encouraging him to take more than 5 minute catnaps. I spend the majority of my day in the bedroom with blackout shades and white noise trying every combination of sleeping space, swaddle, and implementation of the 5s's to get him to finally stay asleep. We have his one month checkup tomorrow and I will talk to the doctor again, but have a feeling she'll say to just keep practicing the 5s's, etc. He's not super fussy, just always wants to eat, and she said before this suggests it is not reflux. I could try an elimination diet as the gas does seem to make him uncomfortable, but he hasn't had blood or mucous in his stools so I'm not sure how much this will help. Or just take this as his current temperament and power through....
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@periwinklebee: I'm sorry, but I haven't read all the responses, but have you tried probiotic drops to see if that helps him feel more comfortable? I only say that since in your latest post, you mention gas and some arching. For our son, I noticed a difference in his temperament using these and i guess it wouldn't hurt to at least try?
and cluster feeding is so normal as babies do that to help increase your milk supply. But, i also get how frustrating it can be if it is 24/7 and I agree that part isn't really normal. Our daughter didn't nap at all during the day and I swear that affected me mentally SO much. Do you have a swing? I swore up and down that we would never get one, but after 6 weeks of her not napping, I finally gave in and she finally took some naps in it. hugs and you will get through this
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@periwinklebee: what is his behavior like while eating? DS had silent reflux and wanted to eat around the clock like you’re suggesting but also was fussy during feedings - lots of arching, coming off and on, etc etc. DD was just a regular puker but still ate every 1.5 hours for a long time - she’d do a 5-10 minute feed and be done, though, with a period of regular cluster feeding before bedtime (and then would sleep a big chunk). Both kids ended up medicated for reflux, but both gained well (like 80th percentile for weight) and were just more snackish than some babies. The constant snacking PLUS trouble settling points to reflux but often peds want to hear about feeding difficulties too before treating (at least with my n of 2!)
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@periwinklebee: It seems like he has silent reflux, the symptoms you mentioned. You should talk to your ped about it- silent reflux, not regular reflux since there is weight gain and not screaming colick.
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Yeah, both my kids had reflux but DS1 and DS2 looked totally different. DS1 was colicky AND had reflux AND his personality is just extra - he's easily overstimulated. He didn't sleep and screamed around the clock.
DS2 is just a happier more laid back kid and loves to eat, so even with reflux, he would feed just fine, but then fuss if he was off the boob and didn't sleep for more then 30-40 minutes around the clock. Because of my experience with DS1 and because DH has severe reflux, I just went straight to my ped and TOLD HER I wanted DS2 on Prilosec immediately. Within a week the child was sleeping longer stretches and doing great.
Essentially, some kids are just more content and they push through discomfort easier than others. Both kids got the same treatment - gas drops in his bottles if we bottle fed and got gripe water when he had hiccups (frequent and also a sign of reflux). And lots of burping.
But yeah, the frequent nursing thing really makes me think its silent reflux. Because even if you're empty, what they're doing is swallowing and the act of swallowing feels good in the moment because its trying to push down the stuff that's refluxing upwards through their esophagus and causing the burning. It also forces saliva down there to help breakdown and neutralize things. And like any kind of heartburn, warm beverages and milk feel good when it hurts. And being drowsy and trying to zone out and ignore the pain also helps. Thus, the clusterfeeding.
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@periwinklebee: I agree with pretty much everything @gingerbebe: wrote (as per usual
). My DD had silent reflex and this was her totally, always wanting to nurse because it was soothing. She gained weight very well (over 90th percentile) because she was ALWAYS eating. Once we started her on some meds we saw a lot of improvements in her temperament and also in her sleep.
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Will he take a soother? He might just want to suck. It sounds like he's getting enough milk!
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@mrswin: @gingerbebe: @jape14: @Ina85: thank you all, this is super helpful - from these descriptions I'm pretty sure that he has silent reflux, and all the more after watching him closely with that in mind yesterday. He has all the symptoms mentioned - latching and unlatching when feeding, wanting to cluster feed around the clock, not settling, hiccups... and when I watch his short fits of sleep, he'll wrinkle up his face like he has a bad taste in his mouth and then just wail until comforted.
@gingerbebe: I had forgotten that your younger son had reflux and he sounds a lot like this description - incredibly helpful as always.
I have an appt to talk with the pediatrician this afternoon and really hope we can treat it and that it will help, as I feel really badly for him and this also feels unsustainable for me, as despite trying everything the sleep is just getting worse and worse...
@NorthStar: I picked some of those up yesterday - thank you!
@Mrs. Champagne: He's not a big fan of it now but I'm hoping if he gets better at holding it in his mouth that it will help with self-soothing, so we'll keep trying it periodically, thank you!
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@periwinklebee: Your pediatrician might tell you that they will grow out of it and its just a sign of an immature digestive system - and to a certain extent that is true. DS1 was off reflux meds by 6 months and DS2 was off them by 4 months. And most babies are off by 6 months to a year I believe. But its not sustainable when you haven't slept in like weeks or months.
If your ped starts you on drugs, it will probably be Zantac. It worked well for us for like 2-3 weeks and then it was back to the same antics as before and then when transitioned to a PPI drug like Prevacid or Prilosec, it was AWFUL HELL for like 10 days until the meds got a chance to kick in. Like it made the reflux worse before it got better. Which is why with DS2 I didn't even bother with Zantac and wanted the PPI from the get-go.
Also wanted to say that I fired my first pediatrician because he did not take my concerns seriously and dismissed me as being an irrational first time mom. NO. BAI.
Go in armed about the symptoms: swallowing, scrunching up and crying a few minutes after dozing off, constantly needing to suck, hiccups, gas, burping, never being content and sleeping, etc. Silent reflux babies will not spit up as much because they swallow the refluxed stuff back down - it essentially hurts them more because it burns coming up and it burns going down - but since they're NOT spitting up, they're keeping those calories and often gain weight okay. Tell them you are holding your baby upright or just holding your baby 24/7 and that he wont lay down on a flat surface.
They may tell you to try eliminating stuff from your diet. I removed dairy, caffeine, chocolate, and acidic foods from my diet and they did help (less angry babies), but they did not handle the reflux without medicine. I did notice a big difference with cutting caffeine and chocolate and even decaf coffees and teas in terms of how badly they would flux during the day, so that might be something to keep in mind.
Oh, , and check your baby's breath every now and then and see if it smells weird. Reflux babies sometimes have acidic or acrid smelling breath.
Good luck!
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@periwinklebee: you're getting a ton of good advice here (& I'm sure tons elsewhere via googling!) but one more thing that was helpful in dealing with my kids' reflux and determining whether it was normal newborn fussiness or something more: keep a diary of symptoms! I tracked all feedings in baby connect and would add notes in the comment section so I could see a clear pattern of behavior (e.g., "fussy while eating -- took 5 tries before she settled into nursing" or "had to swaddle to get him to eat").
in addition, with both of my kids, my pediatrician observed a feeding and could observe their symptoms firsthand. you may want to try feeding DS in the office and getting some valuable observational time with the doctor.
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Adding on what @jape14: said, maybe you could also do a weighted feed there? It would give you a better idea of how much he's taking each feed and if it really constitutes a full feed. I was convinced my daughter had silent reflux because she hiccuped all the time and I felt like I could see reflux symptoms, but she definitely didn't. I think she was just a more unsettled baby than my LO1. No amount of medicine, etc was going to fix that - only changing my expectations regarding her behavior.
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@periwinklebee: If you don't mind the paci, definitely keep trying! My son didn't care for the soothies they gave us at the hospital, so I tried a few brands and he really liked the Mam. I think he found the soothie too cumbersome. I had to introduce it a few times and, one time, it just clicked and he used them until nearly 2. After that, I definitely got some peace when he was just fussy.
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Neither of my kids took pacis well - they just didn't care for it. I don't know if the reflux was a factor or not. BUT DS2 did take the MAM pacis and MAM bottles the best by far. They fit their faces better and the nipple was flat and soft. I could definitely sit and rock and soothe DS2 by holding a MAM paci to his face for a while if I was over nursing.
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Saw the pediatrician this afternoon and got a prescription for zantac. The baby was wailing most of the time there and increased the volume by a factor of ten when the doctor laid him flat on the exam table, and she was like "yup, I think he has reflux." My confidence as a new mom is pretty low and I was initially convinced I must be doing something obvious wrong that was keeping him from being comfortable. I don't expect any miracles but hopefully it helps him to be a bit more comfortable and rest better.
@jape14: Thank you, I'm going to check out baby connect, as I think this could be quite helpful, for reflux and also more generally.
@LBee: They weren't able to do a weighted feed today but I'm definitely going to push for it in the future if this doesn't help.
@crazydoglady: @gingerbebe: thanks for the recommendation. I'd love for him to take a paci, at least on occasion. Just ordered the MAM, I figure for 4 bucks regardless it's worth a shot.
@gingerbebe: that's really good to know about the PPIs and we will reevaluate if zantac hasn't helped in a week or he gets worse. that's also really interesting about elimination. I haven't had a drop of caffeine or chocolate since he was born since I was worried it would just make being unsettled worse
but I've been a bit resistant to dairy elimination since yogurt is such an easy way to get some fat and protein. I read today after you mentioned this that having a milk protein intolerance is commonly associated with reflux, though so far we haven't seen other signs of it like bloody stool. I may try eliminating dairy once the zantac has had enough time to hopefully kick in, so I can tell if it also has an effect...
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@periwinklebee: Hey, I was in your shoes a few years ago, I totally understand how you feel. My SIL sent me a text message during the darkest days of that period and I'll tell you the same thing she told me:
YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB. YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB. YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB. YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB.
That kid is loved, fed, held, being taken the doctor, and you are researching the crap out of how to make him comfortable and happy - YOU ARE DOING A GOOD JOB. No matter what anyone says, no matter what a doctor tells you, YOU are doing a kick ass job LOVING THE HECK out that baby. You are doing awesome.
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@periwinklebee: I hope the zantac helps and yes you are doing such a good job, you advocated for your son and are doing everything you can to make him happy and healthy
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@periwinklebee: just wanted to chime in and echo others. you’re doing such a great job. I really hope your sweet baby starts feeling better on the medicine ASAP. Thinking of you!
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@gingerbebe: @snarkybiochemist: @jhd: Thank you all so much, you guys are awesome
So, knock on wood, it seems to be really helping! I gave him a dose yesterday afternoon and he promptly took a 45 minute nap in my lap, which he hasn't done in a few weeks. Then he woke up, ate a bit, and took another hour nap on me while I was eating dinner and not even making any effort to get him to stay asleep. This morning, he fell asleep in the bathtub and seemed so content that I let him sleep there for awhile watching him there, and he's been asleep after the last feed for an hour. Night still involved pretty frequent wakings, I think in part because he is so sleepy that I had a really hard time getting him to take full feeds, but still - I don't want to jinx it but I feel like he has been able to rest so much better already. Poor little guy just seems exhausted, I hope he will be able to continue to catch up on sleep and that this will ultimately help him to be a more vigorous eater as well. He's 90th percentile for height but only 30th for weight - and may just be his build since he was like that at birth - but definitely room to put on a little more baby fat
Anyways, I am so, so grateful to everyone here - the support and knowledge is amazing!!!
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@periwinklebee : aw yay! So glad to see this positive update! Sweet boy! I hope he continues to get good sleep today!
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@periwinklebee: Woot! Yeah, just keep an eye on him. Also, don't forget 6 weeks is a big growth spurt and 8 weeks is a really bad Wonder Week, and 12 weeks there is usually both a growth spurt and Wonder Week, so fussing and worse naps during that time period will be normal - but you just have to watch for the other reflux symptoms to come back to see if the Zantac has stopped working. Also, Zantac is weight specific so make sure you stay on top of your doctor about the dosage.
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@jhd: @gingerbebe: thank you!
and good reminder about the growth spurt/wonder weeks and dosage. When I contact the pediatrician to follow up, will be sure to inquire about that.
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@periwinklebee: so glad you might be getting some relief soon!
I’ve been thinking of you a lot.
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@periwinklebee: Yay! When I've posted on your sleep threads about my DD before I don't even know if I mentioned she also had silent reflux, and didn't get medicated until 3 months because we didn't realize what it was/how bad it was! We started on Zantac but it ultimately didn't work long term for her and we moved to a PPI. I think Zantac is more fast-acting though so it makes sense it gave your LO immediate relief! I hope t continues to help!
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@periwinklebee: SUCH good news!!! I'm glad to hear your boo is more comfortable and able to get much needed rest. What a good update, good for you for advocating for yourself.
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@LCTBQE: So much better! His naps still tend to be on the short side, but he's napping (!!!), and he slept a decent stretch last night! Feeling more human, more able to enjoy things, and much less worried about him
@SweetiePie: Thank you
feeling much more sane here and I think it's also a huge relief for the baby to be able to get some sleep. Already noticed him picking up a couple of new skills yesterday now that he's a bit more rested. I've been thinking of you too! Has the new little one arrived yet? @IRunForFun: Super interesting! I was surprised how quickly we've seen a difference with zantac but am definitely keeping an eye out to catch things early if reflux symptoms start deteriorating. Thank you! btw, I like your username
Runner?
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@periwinklebee: yes! He came at 36 weeks to the day! Tomorrow he’ll be 2 weeks old. Still crazy to look at him and realize that he should still be in there baking. My RCS wasn’t scheduled till 3/14! But he’s healthy and eating well. Super sleepy since he’s early but I know that could change any time now
We have our weight check today so I’m very curious to see if he broke 7lbs! Which is also crazy since I didn’t get a lot of newborn stuff thinking he’d be 9-10lbs at birth -
@SweetiePie: Congrats!!! So glad he is here and healthy! And sleeping well
Hah, yeah, I always thought I'd have a huge baby and also under-invested in newborn clothes - that's probably why my LO was smaller than average despite being late Good luck with the weight check!
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@periwinklebee: No advice, just want to commiserate! DS was miserable from about 3 weeks until 3 months. He slept decently, but when he was awake he screamed non-stop. I agonized over every possible reason and researched milk protein intolerance, reflux, has, etc. I swear he had symptoms of everything. It was so hard to know what to do. Our ped recommended just waiting it out and not doing anything drastic (like changing my diet). So glad I listened because at like 14 weeks, a switch flipped. He became so happy and content. He used to scream for up to an hour before every nap and bedtime (so like 7 times a day 🙄), but suddenly could be put down awake and fall asleep on his own. He was a totally different baby!
If the Zantac is working for you guys, keep it up. But don’t get discouraged if it stops working or he still seems miserable. Newborns are tough and sometimes there’s nothing we can do but wait it out.
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So sorry... hang in there, this phase will pass.
Is it possible that LO has an intolerance to something you're eating?
I discovered that dairy gave my son quite an upset tummy - he had gas and would projectile spit up after every feed. When I finally figured it out, he was a different baby and started sleeping much better (at night, until 6 months when he went back to waking 2-8 times a night). He never was too much for napping until he hit 1 year. It was a lot of survival until that point.
it's just like - kiddo, why do you insist on sleeping the one place and time I don't want you to sleep and refuse to sleep under any other circumstances? But I know it's a super common issue...and I'm sure just the first of many times that my kid will be doing the exact opposite of what I want 
). My DD had silent reflex and this was her totally, always wanting to nurse because it was soothing. She gained weight very well (over 90th percentile) because she was ALWAYS eating. Once we started her on some meds we saw a lot of improvements in her temperament and also in her sleep.
but I've been a bit resistant to dairy elimination since yogurt is such an easy way to get some fat and protein. I read today after you mentioned this that having a milk protein intolerance is commonly associated with reflux, though so far we haven't seen other signs of it like bloody stool. I may try eliminating dairy once the zantac has had enough time to hopefully kick in, so I can tell if it also has an effect...
Runner?
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