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If they have "unlimited" vacation they really don't need the benefit for daycare illnesses or really maternity leave right? I thought this was really great but as I've read others comments if it's not used or you can't feasible use it which you really can't if Netflix isn't going to hire temporary workers then its just a publicity stunt and boo for that.
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@mrs. wagon: Totally agree. My husband's work is the same -- basically like, "Yeah, take a week in the summer, a week around Christmas, three-day weekends here and there, it's all good!" He definitely would prefer a set amount of time, and I feel the same. I'm taking more time off this year than I ever have, and that's only because I'm specifically given that time. If it was just "unlimited" I'd probably be afraid to
I don't think the onus should be on the employee to decide what an appropriate amount of time is, because it seems like people are likely to take even less time off if they're worried about being judged. If you want a generous vacation policy for your workers, then be generous! Give them five, six, whatever weeks.
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@Corduroy: I think it is just a publicity stunt. Netflix is a competitive work environment with incredibly high turnover. They already have unlimited vacation that goes unused. <- This +1
Don’t get me wrong I think this is great and a great step forward to influence other companies to step it up.
BUT I also think this is publicity stunt too. I know people that work at Netflix, I only know from a software / engineering stand point though but they personally told me it’s “tough” to work there and it feels like they want to burn you out. Maybe it’s different for other aspects of their company like HR or advertisement.
I have unlimited sick time and I hate it! Guess what happens? Everyone comes in when they are sick and gets everyone else sick and that keeps going all through flu season and so basically everyone is sick for a few months a year trying to “work” through it.
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For those of you who say "unlimited vacation" is not something taken advantage of, what do you mean exactly?
Obviously "unlimited vacation" doesn't mean that you get paid 100% even if you don't show up to work for a year. My husband's company has this as their policy and most people take around 3-4 weeks a year, which is the industry standard. What it really means to the company is that they a) aren't tracking your every off day and more importantly for them, b) aren't paying out your accrued vacation when you leave. Because performance is judged on your results and accomplishments, people don't take off 3+ months of the year because they know they can't get enough done to merit a great review.
We aim to take about 4 weeks off throughout the year because that's how much I get (my company specifically says I get 4 weeks off).
I'm guessing that for most employees of Netflix, this policy change will mean that most employees will completely take off 3-4 months (which is industry standard at most large tech companies). For those moms and dads who need a little extra time, they will take off maybe 6+ months or work part time/flexible schedules for 6-12 months.
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@sunny: I have gotten pretty jaded with kids and work.
So please take my words with a grain of salt.People believe if you take too much time off it will negativity affect their career... 3-4 weeks is the industry norm but most people with unlimited vacation don't take that in fear of their career. Maybe that's not the case but it's perceived that way.
Also for tech a lot of things are time sensitive and happen fast... things need to get done right now, which gives people a pause if they should leave for a week on their tasks was planned out for 2 weeks which they were told about yesterday and their vacation starts next week.
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@mrs. wagon: Same here. (We are in similar industries, too.
) I worked at a huge company that had "unlimited vacation" and what it meant is that no one really took vacation because they weren't being told: "Here are your days. Use or lose them." It also means you don't get paid out any leftover PTO when you leave.I can't hate on this though because I think it is starting a conversation and changing norms. Is it a real solution? No, but it is a step.
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so interesting as a Canadian to read all these comments and how everyone is interpreting this. and hearing about this unlimited vacation policy some places have. I have never heard of this. I can't say it doesn't exist in Canada, just never at the places I've worked nor have i heard of anyone having that policy.
I hope the employees of Netflix take advantage of this new parental leave policy and take a full year off. But perhaps that is too idealistic to think right now. I certainly would, but I guess i come from a different perspective.
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@Raindrop: Do you guys follow the agile methodology? My team does and our work is planned out in 1 month increments. Vacations are taken into account at the planning session (e.g. Jane has 12 working days, Jennifer has 20 working days, etc.). We typically plan out what the team will accomplish by the end of the mini-milestone with vacations in mind. It's definitely not perfect--we are reaching the end of our milestone this week and we have a TON of work to complete and I have been working evenings to make sure it all gets done. That being said, my manager had pre-planned an overseas trip for 3 weeks. We have all known about this trip for weeks/months. I don't know how he personally feels, but if it were me, I would have no guilt taking the time off because people have known about it and it was considered during planning.
Maybe things are just a little less intense outside the valley?
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@sunny: Haha you know me... and what happened. So I can see why people are fearful of this stuff. My company is not very intense though.
I'm not sure if the valley is more intense. What I told you is stuff that happens to my husband and friends and family in the same field.
I feel where you are is intense too!
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Being in the Seattle area, I've met people who worked in the tech industry and it is rough industry to work in. Long hours, tough deadlines and other challenges that I wouldn't understand.
I think maybe it is a publicity stunt to recruit other talented individuals. Like I think Google or Microsoft added cryogenic storage of eggs and sperm and I hear of perks for interns to come our during the summer with all housing paid.
As for this new shift in mat leave and pat leave, I still think it's a good change that will hopefully get other industries to follow suit.
Just like there are now companies like Costco and another company recently (can't remember) now paying their employees a living wage.
It's all a step in the right direction. -
@sunny: "For those of you who say "unlimited vacation" is not something taken advantage of, what do you mean exactly?... My husband's company has this as their policy and most people take around 3-4 weeks a year, which is the industry standard....
We aim to take about 4 weeks off throughout the year because that's how much I get (my company specifically says I get 4 weeks off)."You are using the existing industry standard & your company's policy as your benchmark. The unlimited leave doesn't encourage you to use more. You don't take 6 weeks. If the industry standard was 2 weeks people would take two weeks, or as research shows, less.
I think the default benchmark will be CA's 18/22 week leave. It will be paid, which is great. I'd love to be making their generous salary on leave instead of nothing on leave. I don't think employees will take more because Netflix has higher than industry standard turnover and a reputation for churning through employees.
Plus, like you said "obviously "unlimited vacation" doesn't mean that you get paid 100% even if you don't show up to work for a year.". Based on the way Netflix introduced their policy I don't see why one wouldn't just replace the word vacation with leave.
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@TemperanceBrennan: I never worked in the tech industry, and my area really wasn't terribly lucrative, but I worked with a lot of young women and almost everyone took their full 12 - 18 weeks of leave, and often, but not always, a temp was hired to cover at least part of their work. More than half the women came back after their leave, it seems, but probably a lot didn't in part because we didn't get paid that much and daycare is crazy expensive in our area. But people assumed you would take your full leave at least.
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@sunny: In my experience, "unlimited" vacation means people take less vacation than they would if they just had a set amount. For example, my husband usually takes between two and three weeks per year -- he does not have a set amount. On the other hand, I'm given five weeks, and I'm using it all. There's no way I would use five weeks of vacation if I was just told, "Oh, you know, do what you think is appropriate." I think this also can depend on what management does, too, though. My H's bosses don't take much time off, so he feels like he can't either. To apply that to the Netflix situation, unless upper management takes a full year off (which seems unlikely based on precedence), I highly doubt anyone else will, or at least not many.
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@Foodnerd81: That makes sense. I'm an engineer and our projects span years. I think in my limited experience, it's a function of qualified individuals not being available/interested in a temporary position for only a 12-16 week period time and the fact that entry-level or intern candidates aren't experienced enough to step in.
@sunny: I don't think it is something to no be taken advantage of, but I think in most ways, it's easier for the company leadership and not in the best interest of the employees to offer unlimited vacation.
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@Corduroy: I meant the tech industry standard. Google, Facebook, Microsoft and many big tech companies offer 3-6 weeks depending on seniority.
@TemperanceBrennan: yes I think it's a calculated decision that management makes. They look at their data and see that employees are accruing 3-6 weeks of vacation a year, take between 0-100% of it, then when they leave they must pay out the balance. When I left my last company, I had 1 month paid out. When they have an "unlimited" policy, they still see that employees are taking between 0-6 weeks and now they don't need to pay out any accrued benefit.
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@TemperanceBrennan: agreed I've never seen a temporary worker hired. I know that's why I came back when I did. I'm also an engineer and My clients love babies but they also expect me to finish their work in a timely manner and my coworkers don't have time to do my work and theirs. We'vev actually been trying to hire someone for a year plus and there are not any qualified individuals in our area who want to change jobs or stay in this area for a long period of time. It takes 2-3 years for someone to actually be good at what we do and do anything less than 5 years is a waste of training.
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@sunny: I think what is most beneficial for management AND employees is use-it or lose-it policies with vacation time expiration dates (although I think a one year reset is too short, I would prefer 3-5 years). I think this avoids companies having to pay out large lump sums when employees leave or retire and reduces resentment or guilty feelings of the employees.
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Sorry I like this thread so I'm bumping it.
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@TemperanceBrennan: Or accrual maximums, like you can only accrue 4 weeks over your yearly allowance.
I'm glad they are doing something and it is starting a conversation about improving parental leave, but I do not think unlimited leave is really in the best interest of the employee unless upper management is really going to walk the talk and make it OK for the rest of the company to do it.
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@mrs.shinerbock: Yep, that works too!
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@TemperanceBrennan: the way my company does it is you can't roll over your vacation to the next year, but you don't lose it either. Instead, at the end of the year, they pay out whatever vacation you haven't used. I feel like that's a win-win situation. The company will never have to pay out 10+ weeks to someone quitting or retiring who has been hoarding vacation days, but the employee doesn't feel like they're losing something. I agree that unlimited is easier for leadership, because I think they're banking on the fact that most people would be too uncomfortable to take a massive amount of time off. It's kind of a way to pass the buck, like, "Oh, you feel like you don't get enough time off? Well, that's your fault, you can take it." That totally ignores that our culture in this country is geared towards feeling guilty for taking time off, which is unfortunate but true.
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@TemperanceBrennan: I liked my previous company's policy that you could carry forward a max of 1 full year's worth of vacation. My current company has no carry forward provision which I hate!
@MrsSCB: I think most companies might have a hard time with that because then they have to possibly budget over 100% of your salary to be paid out in cash. Plus it incentivizes employees to not take time off, especially those who need the cash. That's generally not in the best interest of the employee or the employer.
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I think it's great they are offering it, and I hope that many feel comfortable enough to use it! I can see it starting out small- some parents taking 4 months, then 6, then 9 and so on. At least I hope so! I would have no problem taking that time lol
@sunny: my company has unlimited vacation and I love it, not having to stress about counting sick days, dr visits, vacation days, etc. it has been a lifesaver for me as a working mom and I take plenty of time off!
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@sunny: How would they have to budget over 100 percent of my salary? Even if they had to pay out all of my vacation time, that's still only a small percentage of my yearly salary. And the way I look at it is if people would rather get extra cash than take time off, that's a great option to have. It's like saying "paying people overtime is just encouraging them to work over 40 hours a week." That's true, but it's still up to the employee to decide if they want to work a normal 40 hours or they want extra cash.
ETA: Do you mean they would need additional money in the budget beyond my salary to pay me extra for unused vacation time? Sorry, I thought you were saying 100 percent additional. That's definitely true, although I think most companies need wiggle room in the budget anyway in case someone quits and they have to pay out their vacation time.
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@MrsSCB: Because your compensation is typically expressed as a base salary figure (what you'll receive at each paycheck) and a vacation amount (say, 3 weeks).
So if you didn't take your 3 weeks of vacation this year, you would be paid your base rate on 3 weeks, even though you were already paid out 100% of your salary via regular paychecks.
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@sunny: that would definitely be something a company would have to factor into the budget. But we also get bonuses beyond our base salary, and they need to be prepared to pay vacation out if people quit. I'm sure it wouldn't be feasible for all companies, but I do think it's a great option if it is. I'm happy with it anyway, although I do use most of my time off
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I really hope my company will step up with more time leave by the time we have our third. Although it would be much easier to leave my 2nd baby than it was to leave the first, I'm still getting those sad feelings just thinking we only have a few more weeks before I return to work.
I don't think the onus should be on the employee to decide what an appropriate amount of time is, because it seems like people are likely to take even less time off if they're worried about being judged. If you want a generous vacation policy for your workers, then be generous! Give them five, six, whatever weeks.
So please take my words with a grain of salt.
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