One of the girls in my daughters class has been targeting her. Doing mean things to her, excluding her, manipulative shit.
Would you talk to the parent of the other child about it? Or how would you handle it?
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@mediagirl: how old are the kids?
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@Pollywog: preschool - 4 and 5.
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@mediagirl: I don't know what I would do, but it br aka my heart that it starts so young. I heard the older class in C's school had a similar problem last year too. I just can't believe it.
I think I would say something, but I'm really not sure. If it was my kid being mean I would want to know.
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I would probably involve the teacher and try to schedule a conference. If it happens at school you are going to need to get them involved so they can monitor the bullying.
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Unless I was friends with the parents, I would tell the teacher rather than the parents. They may be defensive, and maybe less so if the teacher has to talk to them.
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@mediagirl: Ugh I'm so sorry, this is the worst!
My 4.5 year old DD went through this at the beginning of the school year, one of the girls in her class was basically her "frenemy", she kept wanting to play with her / being nice to get her to play with her, but then would always eventually turn mean both verbally / emotionally and physically in some pretty awful ways. We actually know her parents but felt it would be easier for all involved to have the teacher / daycare director work with them and us on it (separately). I feel like if you go to the parents directly it can feel like you are attacking them and they will just get defensive right away, whereas if the teacher or director address it it will most likely be more heard and listened to. In our case the teacher had a few meetings with the parents to discuss it but eventually when the other girl was laying hands on my kid we asked for the director to get involved, which made the other parents take it a lot more seriously as something they needed to work on with their daughter.
Good luck, and I hope things improve for your DD. It blows my mind how early this crap starts.
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@mediagirl: Have you already gone to the teacher? I understand there may be limitations to what the teacher can control but still.
If I did see the parent in passing and felt like I had an opening to talk, I would probably just make a comment like, "Yea the girls dont seem to get along, my DD always feels like she's being excluded by your DD"
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I've asked the teachers to keep an eye out on this child when she plays with mine. Unfortunately the stuff she is doing is the type of thing that isn't "caught" because it's words, not fists. My daughter doesn't want to be a tattle-tale (something she must have heard from other kids because the teachers don't use that term, and we don't either), she also doesn't want to be mean to anyone. She says, "I just want to be nice to everyone."
Isn't it a shame everyone else can't be the same way?
Back in January I brought this same child up to the teacher at our parent/teacher conference and they said they have seen it and will try to interfere. It's only gotten worse since.
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@mediagirl: January was a long time ago. I would address it first with the teachers again and see what their suggestions are for how to handle it. Just tell them you are at your breaking point and feel like at this point the adults need to step in (whether that be the teachers and/or parents).
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@T.H.O.U.: yeah, her teachers know.
@HappyBaker: I sort of wish it would get physical so there would be something to "see" happen. I know that's terrible but it's true. -
@T.H.O.U.: yeah, I brought it up 2 weeks ago and last week, as well.
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@mediagirl: Did the teacher say what she/he was going to do about it? Just monitor it? Because I would not accept that as a response. Thats what they have been doing and it isn't working. I would consider going to the director to notify them of the situation and just inform them that your next step is to talk to the parents.
Just curious you said 4 and 5 yrs old. Is there a large age gap between your DD and this child? I think this is a hard age where there is a big difference socially when there is a gap.
Honestly though I dont think talking to the parents will make much of a difference. First its probably a behavior learned or tolerated at home. Secondly what are the parents supposed to do about it while the children are at school? They can have a conversation about it at home but not much more.
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@T.H.O.U.: I thought about it after posting this and yeah, I don't think talking to these particular parents will help. I do believe it's time for something more than monitoring. I may call the director and ask her what their policy is when a parent wants something more than just monitoring a situation like this, that's probably the best move. I feel like these parents need to know their kid is a mean girl and that this has gotten to the point of bullying. AT AGE 4!!! But yeah, they probably do know and just don't care.
The other girl turned 5 in May, my LO turns 5 in June.
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@mediagirl: I totally understand that, as awful as it was once it started getting physical it was much easier to finally get all involved to take it seriously.
The manipulative / emotional part of it is SO much harder for teachers to catch / realize is a problem. DD's teacher worked a lot with her on teaching her to stand up to the girl by herself instead of relying on a teacher being there to "save" her. And for DD to verbally address the girl back saying what she is doing is not okay, so that other kids in the class see and hear that. I think it's important to not just teach her to run away because it's not my DD's fault and if she isn't doing it to my kid chances are she's doing it to someone else.
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@HappyBaker: we have been working with her on this. We are teaching her she needs to respond immediately - because that's what she has the hardest time with. She will go up to the girl 5 minutes later, but by then the girl is over it. She needs to get in her face and say "you're not being nice to me" immediately. At least that's what we have been trying to get her to do.
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@T.H.O.U.: I wanted to call out your comment specifically, that's a huge assumption to make that the behavior is learned or tolerated at home! My son has been having some issues in using his hands at school and let me tell you, it's absolutely not something we model or tolerate.
@mediagirl: Chances are that the parents are aware of the behavior, so I would ask the teacher or possibly the director what is being done at the school to address it. Are they separating the kids, are they intervening when they see the behavior, what are they doing to redirect?
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@mediagirl: Hugs to you and DD, this is so heartbreaking to deal with and so frustrating as well!
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@looch: I said "probably'. Yes there are times that it is just something the child struggles with from natural instincts. My daughter is a very touchy feely person as well and we have been talking to her a lot about how to be respectful of personal space. But she also did learn that from us showing her affection through so many hugs and cuddles as well as her natural love language.
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Ugh, my heart goes out to your DD. I agree with the others about going to the director since the teacher doesn't seem to be seeing it. Is your DD able to stand up for herself? We had a somewhat similar situation when my son was 3-4. Another kid was bullying him, and I would tell him to say something like "don't hit me, it's not nice", I told him to leave the situation if the kid didn't stop bothering him, and I also encouraged him to go to the teachers if they didn't see what was going on. It's hard when they are so young, but I would try to give her some phrases she can say like "stop talking to me like this, it's not nice" or "you aren't being a good friend", or whatever would be appropriate. I would also encourage her to go to the teacher if this girl is being mean to her. As for talking to the parents, I don't know. I'm not the confrontational type, so I would be hesitant to go that route. But if you do, I would try to just lay out the facts without getting too emotional or laying on too much blame. I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if another parent confronted me about this type of situation. I think I would try to be understanding and take them seriously.
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@T.H.O.U.: You know that isn't how you meant it, though. It was in response to aggressive, mean behavior.
My son tends to use his hands as a reaction to something (usually not getting something he wants), so we're working on getting an adult involved when something happens BEFORE he uses his hands.
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@mediagirl: Just commiseration, we went through this in Kinder this year. Unfortunately, I don't have a great recommendation other than things already know. Involve management, get your child comfortable with calling out the actions of the other child, and get your child to find other friends if this relationship just doesn't work. I wasn't certain if your child is trying to be friends with this kiddo or just avoid.
We talk a lot about how friends should make us feel, and when people don't make us feel good and always make us sad they aren't really our friends and it's time to find someone else to be friends with. We also talk about that if our friends cause us to get in trouble that's not a friend either. Friends want to have fun but not make us feel bad all the time or get us in trouble.
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@MamaG: great suggestions, thank you. I'm sorry you had to go through this, as well. I'll start adding in talking about how friends are supposed to treat each other. I think this girl just seeks my daughter out, even if my daughter tries to avoid her. She knows she isn't nice but there's only so much avoiding when you're in a small classroom together all day, you know?
@lamariniere: I have talked to her about going to the teacher but you wouldn't believe what these kids do - they intentionally block her (and other kids) with their arms and bodies to stop them from telling on them. I explained to my daughter that is part of the child being mean and the teacher needs to know. If they are physically stopping her from moving, she needs to yell for the teacher.
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My oldest had this problem at 3-4. I was so relieved when the girl wasn't in her 4 yr old class, but she was still on the playground. I donno, the teachers knew and talked to the parents regularly, all the other parents knew and some would step in and scold the kids on the playground after school. I brought it up gently to the mom. I do think the teachers could have done more.
For the most part though I tried to use it as opportunity to teach resilience and not going along with the crowd.
Hands on the hips and say 'No', ''that is not a nice game', 'that's my friend', etc. And we'd just praise her for not going along with the lord of the flies situations and standing up for the ostracized person or dealing with it emotionally when she was the ostracized person.
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I would call the director and not just ask what their policy is, but tell her your daughter is being bullied and that she needs to come up with a better way to resolve it than "monitoring". I'd also ask for a conference with the other parents.
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So, there were a couple of times in my childhood when I had a close friend in school but then "discarded" or "ignored" that friend seemingly overnight and basically just made an affirmative decision to not like that person anymore. The first time this happened that I recall was kindergarten.
My parents did not model this behavior. In fact my mom totally noticed it each time and called me out on it. But it was definitely a reaction on my part to my circumstances in one way or another.
I was highly criticized and emotionally/physically abused - and I'm an introvert who's bad anxiety issues my whole life. So as a young kid this turned into low confidence and always stressing about everything I did. I very much envied the kids who were so confident and carefree with themselves. Meanwhile I was maintaining close personal friendships with one or two other kids (usually equally introverted and sweet/shy girls). These were relationships where we would feel safe and comfortable.
Until, as a reaction to my self confidence issues and the "not good enough" treatment I was getting at home (and I don't just blame my parents - we were raised closely with our cousins and extended family and I was criticized or bullied or abused by them) I would reject a friend randomly and get a taste of being the abuser. On one level I knew it was wrong, but I guess I felt like someone was being mean to me and so I wanted to feel the sensation of being in control and having power over someone else. I was never verbally abusive, but I completely iced that friend out and ignored them and didn't talk to them and it was so mean and my parents were like WTF.
My parents didn't know what to do because they would tell me it's not nice or how would I feel if someone did that to me, but I would always just say "but I don't like her" or "I don't want to be her friend anymore." They couldn't force me to be friends with someone.
So, yes some mean girl behavior can be learned from modeling by parents, but it can also be a reaction to abuse or mistreatment on the part of the perpetrating child.
What might help is if you walk through an interaction with your daughter on someone else's behalf. So let's say this girl was saying mean things to a friend of hers. What should she do? She may feel compelled to defend a friend over herself, but once she has the words and reactions ingrained it may come out to defending herself. It's also a good way to show her how it makes YOU feel to know she is being mistreated and what you wish you could do for her.
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@mediagirl: Does the older girl have older siblings? Or hang around with older kids (cousings, aftercare with older kids, etc?).
Because my daughter had some trouble this year with another girl saying "You aren't my best friend. ____ and ____ are my friends, but not you." I actually think this girls parents seem perfectly nice, but I read up on this and this is fairly normal for their age group and this girl has an older brother than she might have been hearing this stuff from and repeating it, but not really understanding what it means. There was a good Janet Lansbury article somewhere that talked about observing your kiddo's reactions---my daughter was more just confused, not necessarily really hurt/upset, so I tried not to project my adult feelings on the situation onto her--I just said, people can have more than one best friend, and not everyone may want to be friends, and that's okay--there are so many other people we can be friends with.
My husband was WAY more concerned about this than I was, and he was ready to contact the teacher and he started asking LO about it every single evening---"What did __________ say to you today? Did she say anything about being friends? Did she do anything to you?" And honestly, I think it started to make LO more upset about it than she was initially. Eventually, I convinced DH to squash that kind of questioning. I did talk to LOs teacher when we had scheduled parent conferences and she assured me that it's SUPER normal, and that the whole class was doing that kind of thing, so I decided to just wait and watch.
It took several months, but eventually that kind of talk died out and I didn't hear about it anymore. I just tried to be a supportive listener without interjecting judgments like, "well, that little girl is just rude and has no manners", or whatever. 1)because I don't think that's really true 2) because it isn't helpful to LO in the long run.
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I also think 4-5 years old is too young to classify a kiddo as a "mean girl". Even if they were doing physically harmful things and had to have in-class support or aids full time, I wouldn't say a child that young is "mean" as if that's just their personality. 4-5 is still so young, and they are figuring out what is and isn't acceptable to say, they are figuring out relationships. It's a hard time and I don't believe someone that young has a set-for-life personality.
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@mediagirl: whaaaaat?
that is completely nuts. I totally agree with @ShootingStar: this is bullying and it needs to be addressed in a serious way. I can give a pass to a teacher who may not hear what kids are talking about, but not seeing that kids are physically preventing your child from getting help from the teacher is unacceptable. I don't know how severe this is getting, but if they don't address the bullying promptly and seriously, I would probably consider changing schools.
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@lamariniere: thankfully we are out of there in 3 months!
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My dd had an issue with another kid and we brought it up several times to the teachers because it just kept happening. They followed closely and were able to help my dd find the words to stand up for herself. It was huge for us! And actually fwiw the parents are very nice people- our kids just weren't getting along, mostly because my dd had more of a quiet/shy/go with the flow personality at school at that time, and he was the type to want things on his terms.
ETA, so I guess my advice is to keep bringing it up. In our case it was resulting in tears almost every school morning. It was so sad!
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Just a suggestion to add: I would have your daughter's speech reflect a sense of empowerment and authority instead of engaging and escalating. Since you can't control other parties involved but you can influence your daughter, do some role play with her and use the words in a firm voice---"I don't like that."Or (name) I don't like it when you..."(if a conversation is appropriate)
It is simple, straightforward, I-message and the truth that can't be argued with. -
I thought I'd chime in on some of my experiences. When I was a kid, my best friend treated me like that. We got along, but some days she'd be really mean and controlling. For example, she'd exclude me at recess by saying she and our other friends were going to make me a surprise, and that I couldn't be apart of it so if spend recess alone. There was never any surprise. Yet she was my best friend. This probably went on from age 4 until age 8 when I moved away. I never told my parents except for one incident where a teacher got involved because she stole something from me. But other than that, they had no idea because I was embarrassed and felt like I would be tattling on my friend.
We stayed friends after I moved until we were about 15. The behaviour completely stopped when I moved. When we were older she apologised and said "I can't believe how mean I was to you" and she told me it was because she was jealous. We spent so much time together, in school and at daycare so I guess in her mind she wanted to prove she was better than me?
I dont know if this could be the same issue, some kids could be just plain mean for no reason. But my advice would be to separate them somehow, maybe the teacher can keep them busy with separate activities or something?
I never had the courage to stand up for myself and if I had, she probably would have backed down. But I know that's easier said than done. I can't see my shy self doing that as a kid.
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I didn't read all the previous posts, but I would definitely try and talk to the teacher first. If the teacher didn't get involved/see all sides, then go to admin before going to the parent.
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I'd escalate with the school and insist on a formal and or written plan.
that is completely nuts. I totally agree with @ShootingStar: this is bullying and it needs to be addressed in a serious way. I can give a pass to a teacher who may not hear what kids are talking about, but not seeing that kids are physically preventing your child from getting help from the teacher is unacceptable. I don't know how severe this is getting, but if they don't address the bullying promptly and seriously, I would probably consider changing schools.
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