A thread to discuss the causes and implications of structural and physical violence in Baltimore.
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I'm up for discussion, but suspect many here will disagree with me. Chris Hayes had an excellent interview last night with a reverend from West Baltimore. He went through some of the structural issues and then said, "that this is happening is not surprising. The only thing that is surprising is that it hasn't happened long before now."
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This article was written about Ferguson, but is relevant to the discussion of the Baltimore riots.
I won't condone violence, but I think it's important for those of us who were lucky enough to be born to the "right" families or in the "right" places to have some empathy.
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I mentioned on the other thread that I don't think authorities can claim to be surprised by what's happening, given the history in the area. I do think, like @Mrs. Jacks said, it's more surprising it hasn't happened sooner. I think this is a great overview for anyone who wants to know more about what led to this: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/
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@MrsSCB: thanks for the great link. I should add that, this really goes back to all the issues that were never adequately addressed after the 1968 Baltimore MLK riots.
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I am deeply saddened by what is going on in Baltimore, as we used to live there and my husband used to teach in the inner city.
One quote I saw on Facebook that really resonated with me said (I am paraphrasing): "We should not be more disturbed by the destruction of property than the destruction of black bodies."
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@daniellemybelle: love that quote.
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When President Obama said this morning that people care for awhile and then the majority of the time (paraphrasing here) we just expect the police to contain the violence and problems, I think that was pretty spot on.
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@daniellemybelle: that's a great quote. That's something I've been thinking about a lot today. The national guard was brought in because a cvs was destroyed but too many lives are lost every week in Baltimore.
There's lots of overhaul needed to be done with how communities are policed but the gang culture needs to be overhauled from within as well. I've had family members teach in inner city Baltimore and had parents threaten them regularly with violence. A blind eye is turned on the behavior because so much is wrong with the schools and living situations, people and communities are overwhelmed with too many problems to fix. And the situation just goes on deteriorating.
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@lovehoneybee: @MrsSCB: thanks for posting those links, they were interesting reads.
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Did anyone read thr article about "rough rides?" I think it was in The New Yorker. It made me physically ill.
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@Mrs Green Grass: I haven't seen one in the New Yorker, but I did read this one. Just sickening. As an aside, I think The Atlantic has done a great job covering this situation (obviously, since I've now posted two articles from them
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http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-rough-ride-and-police-culture/391538/ -
Im disgusted with police brutality and cases we see in the news but also disgusted with how people are responding to it. Martin Luther king jr stood up for a whole race that was brutalized without resorting to these tactics.
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@MrsSCB: that was it
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@Mrs Green Grass: yes, so sickening. The amount you have to dehumanize in order to do that is gross. But some of that comes back to hiring. I had a marine friend who came back from Iraq with significant PTSD and was recruited by many different police dept. He knew he was scared and trigger happy and didn't join but I'm sure many recent vets joined who never received the help they needed to recover from war.
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I find this to be a wonderful piece for those who really don't get it.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/25/1347311/--Why-do-they-burn-down-their-own-neighborhood?detail=email -
Such good reads... Thank you for posting.
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"When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is 'correct' or 'wise,' any more than a forest fire can be 'correct' or 'wise.' Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community."
Ta-Nehisi Coates, brilliant as always: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/
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@stargal: I like this quote from MLK:
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@ms.line: I teach HS and we've been talking about these issues all year since Ferguson occurred right before school started. I will have to use that quote!
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I read an article today that only a small fraction of protestors turned violent. I think it's sad that thousands were peacefully protesting an egregious crime, but that a 100 or so people are what the media focus on. I also think it's sad that this keeps happening because something is so broken in our society.
A friend posted this video today about racial bias in the media and while some of the things I was aware of, some of it was really eye opening: http://www.upworthy.com/he-shows-how-the-news-talks-about-black-people-by-talking-about-white-people-instead?g=2
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Heroin is a significant problem in Baltimore. Both for the drug wars it creates and just having communities be addicted. I went to high school near Bmore and we had several kids die from overdoses every year and also had young kids go into dealing. It's a sad mess that's been going on for awhile and there haven't been many good solutions.
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@ms.line: that's really powerful. Thank you. I struggle because while I don't condone the looting and rioting...I get it. I taught in inner-city Chicago, and while I won't pretend to understand the intricacies of race relations and police brutality, I think a lot about my kids (who are now in high school) and the ways that the system is stacked against them (and was when they were 8).
It makes my heart hurt, but as others have said, I have the luxury of reading an article and then thinking about something else. I don't have anything intelligent or coherent to add, I just continue to hope and pray for an outcome that doesn't sweep the issues under the table, but starts us on a real path toward de-criminalizing being born with non-white skin.
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@ShootingStar: yeah the media skewed it for sure and didn't paint the whole picture. I walked around downtown this weekend with the kids and my pictures are quite different than what was on TV.
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@ms.line: Love Ta-Nehisi Coates and that article – really powerful.
I don’t think it’s surprising that places are (literally) blowing up with violence, because nothing else “works” (violence doesn’t either, but it gets attention short-term). How much national news coverage was there of the peaceful protests that have taken place over past few weeks by tens of thousands of people? Basically, none. People do things the “right” way….they get little to no coverage. A few people do things the wrong way, and the whole movement and efforts are damned.
People generally have such a narrow historical view of MLK too. It’s simple to say how much he got done and how he was nonviolent, while forgetting the hate and resistance he faced, en mass in this nation. It isn’t like, in a vacuum, MLK being nonviolent changed everything, or that the people who opposed change changed their tune because he was nonviolent vs. violent. The vast majority of protestors and agents for change today are working in nonviolent ways – how often do we hear about them? How seriously are they being taken? If you protest with cause (directly after a murder, etc.), you’re accused of race-baiting. If you protest “without cause” (not in response to a specific crime, but just because changes are needed everywhere), you’re accused of race-baiting, no matter how peacefully you do it. Lose, lose.
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I live in Baltimore and teach in a city school. I'm home today because school was cancelled. Our house is two miles from the CVS that was burned down and I shop at the Target in the mall where the riots started.
It's heartening to read so many HB posts that understand (but don't condone) the violence that occurred yesterday. For me it's discouraging but not surprising. Thank you @mrs.jacks for linking to the Daily Kos article. It's hard to fathom why people would loot/destroy their own communities, but that article does a good job at trying to explain it. As a teacher and former public librarian, I've worked with so many young people in this city who live in entrenched poverty. Almost all of these kids were ultimately good-hearted, kind and funny individuals, but as I watched many of them grow up, I saw them lose hope, lose dreams, as they came to understand what life had in store for them. That loss can turn into anger and desperation. However most people here have positive (or at least neutral) outlets for those feelings.
I'm also encouraged to see so many people looking beyond the stories that the traditional media is telling. All last week there were peaceful protests in response to Freddie Gray's death. Saturday's protest was peaceful until the evening, and even still, the disturbances that occurred were less destructive than the violence after the Ravens' Super Bowl victory. In fact, I was at the start of Saturday's protest with DS and DH. Unfortunately DS's diaper leaked and I didn't have a change of clothes, so we went home, but my husband marched for five hours and witnessed a great unification of our city. One of our good friends took photos of the event that are thoughtful and balanced. I invite you to check out his page to see how the day unfolded:
http://joshsinn.com/blog/2015/4/26/fwlxqy910602v6jassn75m0qsonmvzSorry for the long post. I'm not trying to speak for all of Baltimore, and as an upper-middle class white woman I definitely can't speak for the folks who are suffering. I just wanted to offer a perspective from someone who lives in and loves this city.
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Just read an article about professional protesters that a research group has been following on social media and who they believe are fueling the violent protests. What they have seen is the same facebook user(s) is starting up protest in the different cities across the country. I hope they continue to dig further into this theory.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved. I also hope that we began waking up and digging into what is really happening within our communities and police depts. -
@turkeylurkey: interesting... I'd like to see what comes of that.
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@turkeylurkey: yup definitely a concern.
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@Katrocap: those pics are so sad. It seems to start so peacefully, even the cops smirking at the camera, and then the day ends violently.
It's been interesting to hear how different radio stations here are providing coverage. The network type news follow CNN type hysteria about the violence, while the local pop/hip hop stations are checking in with people on the ground and focusing more on why the protests and riots are happening.
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What did you guys think of the united gangs video? I was very skeptical when the news was trying to say gangs were unting to attack cops. I'm not sure what fear mongering was going on and it was interesting to see how the gang members spoke out. But at the same time they're partially responsible for their communities being shitty places. If they want to be positive leaders why aren't they being that regularly?
http://m.wbaltv.com/news/gang-members-we-did-not-make-truce-to-harm-cops/32609810 -
@MrsSCB: Really eye-opening article, thank you for sharing!
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@MrsSCB: Great article and the Sun article it linked to. I didn't know the Baltimore Police Dept had a systemic issue of police brutality and misconduct. Screw a building and some inventory; the way these people have been treated is unreal.
@lovehoneybee: While I agree with the general premise that some of the businesses located in poor black neighborhoods are not considered "my neighborhood" store it still does not resolve the fact looting & destruction of property is not an effective way to further causes.
Someone posted an article on the other thread about the 10 positive pics we won't see from the media and it included a bunch of sports fan riots. It's funny how we have come to accept that property will be destructed and fires set after a sporting event almost likes it a right of passage. The media doesn't even label the vandalism as rioting in some of those cases. Riots after a sporting event and riots after a legitimate grievance are still both scary, but the former has an end time. Sun comes up, riot done. Whereas a riot after Baltimore does not have an end time. Maybe that's what makes people outside looking in so much more on edge?
@ms.line: Let's not forget all of the tactics of the Civil Rights movement. They effectively used the court system to demonstrate "separate but equal" segregation was actually unequal and harmful. They effectively disrupted the status quo through economic boycotting, through picketing, through walk outs, through sit ins etc. The freedoms and protections of the law did not come because MLK only marched. Now, when they marched or sat in somewhere they weren't supposed to per the law the opposing forces: other ordinary citizens and police showed their asses and hurled insults, spat on them, beat them etc. Non-violent protest or rather civil disobedience is effective when it's a full court press. I'm not seeing that right now in these communities. A rally with high profile black "leaders" and marching is not effective. Looting & destruction of property is not effective.
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@Katrocap: Did you think the dailykos article applied to Bmore that well? The protests around the stadium were fairly well contained and only monday did things get out of control. I think the reason fire is set in the neighborhoods where rioters live is that's where they're allowed to have the space to do that. When they get out of control near downtown or if they were going towards wealthy neighborhoods I bet they wouldn't be given the space to destroy.
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I know I'm having a conversation with myself but in case anyone cares and in light of the craptastic explanation leaked today.
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@Maysprout: It's hard to believe it was even postulated that he broke his own spine. WTF.
Also, I just saw his death was ruled a homicide and charges are being filed. I'm glad to hear that, and I'll be interested to see how this plays out.
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@Maysprout: I saw that yesterday and was just like "WTF". First rule of lying: If you are going to lie, make it believable.
Come on now.
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@MrsSCB: @yoursilverlining: great news for the weekend. I thought Mosby did a fantastic job. After the craptastic all over the place leaks that were put out yesterday it was great she came out early and got things done.
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