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In the culture where I live, it would be unacceptable not to give a cheek kiss (and sometimes hug) both when saying hello and saying goodbye. In our case I don't think that means my kids' bodies aren't their own. I think that is an interpretation one can choose to assign (or not).
Fortunately my kids don't have a problem with meeting those cultural norms.
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Even though my kids have grown up cheek kissing to say hello they've both had their moments of getting overtired or just not wanting to and I've seen other kids do the same - kids are kids.
But what I'm pretty sure would shock and offend people is if id imply their practice of saying hello was grooming for rape and lack of self confidance. I just can't imagine that going over well with anyone. Im not against alternatives but the wording could probably be less offensive than implying someone trying to say hi is rapey.
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@Maysprout: thumbs up.
In our family, hugging is the norm. The kids have been raised with it since they were born (along with Asian sniff-kisses... a lot more "invasive" than regular family pecks on the cheek) and they will continue to receive hugs and kisses from family anytime they see them. I'm sure once they get older, there will be tons of tween eye-rolling, but it's something they're going to deal with.
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It's always made me uncomfortable when someone tries to force their kid to hug me when they don't want to. I think a child should be able to say no and be heard and respected as the tiny person they are. Saying hello and goodbye, however, I think is good manners.
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It could also be a non-issue based on your kid! While I agree with it in theory, I am not sure I would actually say anything to my ILs because it would cause major major drama. However, my LO does and always has freaked the heck out if anyone tries to touch her except me, unless she has spent tons of engaged time with them. So I just let her freak out, try to get her to say bye, and leave.
I also think with foster kids, your training should cover this issue because there is a heightened concern for teaching bodily autonomy where there has been or maybe have been abuse in the past. I think family members would be more receptive to it as well in that case, especially because you have something like training to blame if someone thinks it's rude.
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I struggle with this. I feel like it is respectful for children to greet family members and in our families that is with a hug (and sometimes kisses as well). So I have definitely had times when LO's family members "force" hug or kiss her and she is not into it, and it makes me uncomfortable but I also don't want to tell her to NOT do it.
At Thanksgiving we tried high fives and blowing kisses as alternatives but when she is not into it, she's not into it, and offering up alternatives just gives her more things to say no to. So we ended up just getting the forced hugs over with quickly, rather than prolonged attempts to get her to greet them in some other way.
Edit to add: One reason why I am not too bothered by it or don't want to actively discourage hugging/kissing by relatives is that LO always warms up to them relatively quickly and by the end of the visit she is offering hugs and kisses to the same folks she rejected. So it's not as if she is traumatized by it.
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You can words things in a way to invite the would be hugger into the process instead of making them feel like the offender by saying something like "we are in the process of trying to teach him to respect other people's space and boundaries, so a natural consequence of this is the child expressing their own boundaries,
so thanks for helping us with that, I know you mean well." -
@daniellemybelle: I'm in the same camp I think.
Or maybe I'm truly in the minority here. Our struggle is our family is all several states away. She loves spending time with them. She warms up quickly. But I honestly think she struggles with the goodbye hug because she doesn't want the people to leave.
I try to reason with my daughter (she's 4) and let her know that this is her last chance to hug Grandma until the next time she comes which will be xx time away. Grandma won't be at our house tomorrow. We are here at the airport for Grandma to go home. Grandma is also usually teary leaving which I think is hard for our LO to process as well. Grandma always says not to force it. But I want her to understand that when our family leaves we can't change our mind in a few minutes, because they are truly gone and we won't see them for months (possibly a year or more).
Also, on the flip side, my daughter wants to hug random people (the fireman in the grocery store yesterday) at random times. I told her she could ask him if he'd like a hug. When he said yes, then she hugged him. I've equated it to petting dogs (weird I know!), but we don't pet dogs without permission and we don't hug people outside of our family without permission either.
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This is so fascinating! Thank you all for your replies. I love the discussion this sparked, definitely lots to think about. I've been offline since yesterday morning and am just getting to all the replies!
@Maysprout: Hmm, I don't think of it as implying that they are being "rapey," but more that we are teaching our kids to be empowered about their choices regarding their bodies and this is part of that. But to each their own. I'm not planning to tell my family members anything until it comes up, and when it does I hope I will be able to handle is subtly and just let them know that an alternative greeting or goodbye will have to do. I think they'll understand, for the most part.
@Rockies11: GOOD POINT. I hadn't thought about the increased importance in this lesson given the fact that we will have foster kids. Most likely we will foster from infancy, but you never know so it's definitely good to be prepared. I'm interested to hear how our agency handles this in the training and orientation.
@MamaG: Interesting. Coming from my own experience, my reluctance to hug has nothing to do with needing to "warm up." I'm truly uncomfortable with hugging strangers or people I don't know well. But as a kid I was the same way and was never one to offer hugs even once I warmed up, except with my immediate family. Now, I hug all of my relatives when we greet each other and when we say goodbye, but I'm an adult now, I do it because it makes them feel good and it's polite, and it's my choice. It still makes me uncomfortable. I have a cousin who still forces her kids (or at least strongly talks them into) to hug every single person in the room when coming and going from a family event. Her kids are 10 and 12 and the girl seems basically ok with it but the boy is clearly physically uncomfortable and anxious, and I always want to tell him, it's ok, you don't have to hug me! But then I would be accused of being unfriendly. Oh, family drama. -
@MrsSRS: yes! This is the article I posted in the original post.
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@2farmmoms: oops! Was so focused on the interesting responses I totally forgot, but when I stumbled across it on Facebook I thought of this. My bad.
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@MrsSRS: No worries! I think it was worth posting twice.
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I started to respond yesterday, but wasn't able to finish. I haven't read all responses.
From as early as it made sense, DS1 has been told he can give people "a hug, a kiss, or a wave." That way if he doesn't feel comfortable with contact, he can choose a wave. I will not force physical contact on my child, but I do expect him to be polite and say hello and goodbye, and acknowledge in some way people's entrance/exit. When relatives (mostly my grandma) are pushy and ask for a hug or kiss, I interject with "yes, DS1, make sure to say goodbye. You can give a hug, a kiss, or a wave." It's so ingrained for him that if someone says "can I have a hug?" he will sometimes respond with a wave. He sometimes even chooses a wave with DH or myself, I think just because he can, because he's actually pretty cuddly.
One of the things that's been helpful is emphasizing that now when LO hugs someone, it's genuine and he wants to. My grandma doesn't like it, but I'm unwilling to compromise.
DS knows "I'm in charge of my body" and will say it if he's uncomfortable. We've had (a lot of) conversations about how being in charge of his body doesn't mean he's in charge of our house, though...
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i am in the majority in that i don't believe in forcing LO to give hugs. if he doesn't want to, i suggest blowing a kiss or high five instead.
sometimes though i catch myself trying to convince him to give a hug to one of his grandmas when they are leaving after a visit (they live in different cities, so we see them a few times a year) and so i know how happy it would make them to get at least one hug before they go.....but then i feel bad after for trying to convince LO when he originally said no. So i intend to be more respectful of him in the future. this thread (and article posted) has made me more aware that i don't always follow 100% what i believe i should do because of social pressures.
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@2farmmoms: sometimes kids don't want to say hi, sometimes they don't want to hug, that's what happens with kids. Like I said I think its fine to teach them alternatives, Im not trying to say you should yell at your kids for not being affectionate. But listening and respecting their feelings isn't exclusive of teaching them social norms - like granny misses you and is excited to see you, that's why she wanted a hug, if you just want to say hi that's OK too. The article you posted I agree with but some of the responses on the thread were I thought sure to offend people for good reason. I think there's a diff between saying if you don't want to that's OK, and putting it on the other person, which to LO I think implies that there's something inherently wrong or dirty in hugs. And some of the responses in the thread went even farther than that. I don't think teaching social norms in a respectful way at all leads to lo not having self respect. In some cultures handshakes between opposite sexes are considered innappropriate, if that's someone's feeling, that's fine too and I'm not going to force them to shake my hand, but I don't think there's evidence that kids have more self respect in a culture that limits physical touch vs one where the norm is 3 kisses to say hi.
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@californiadreams: I can imagine this is so hard in real life. I was talking with my mom about it the other day and she asked if I ever remembered her pushing me into hugging family members. My answer was no, but I definitely got a lot of pressure from grandma and aunts to hug when I wasn't comfortable. I hope to be able to stand up for my kid(s) in the future without offending anyone too much in the process!
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@Maysprout: I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree about balancing teaching social norms with respecting and listening to kids. I think there has to be a balance, as just because something is a social norm doesn't mean it works for every person, but there's also value in learning to be polite even if it makes you uncomfortable. Interesting discussion, for sure.
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There's also an order to it, for me. First you teach body autonomy, then you teach politeness that might make you a little uncomfortable but is safe. One lesson starts at toddler age, one in early grade school.
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