Would you tell someone interested in law to go to law school?
This article just published today with some horrific numbers.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/index.html
What do you think of the article?
Would you tell someone interested in law to go to law school?
This article just published today with some horrific numbers.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/index.html
What do you think of the article?
hostess / wonderful grape / 20803 posts
People think all lawyers make bank. Not a fact! I tell ppl interested in law school to only go if they have a true passion for it
squash / 13208 posts
Not a lawyer but I am shocked! I assumed being a lawyer meant a 6 figure salary!
GOLD / wonderful apricot / 22646 posts
I completed 1L in 2010 and regret it whole heartedly. I would tell people not to go to into it unless it's their true dream/passion.
honeydew / 7667 posts
@Mamaof2: When the economy took a tank lawyers were greatly affected. Law firms started drastically cutting their numbers and salaries. The ROI just isn't there right now unless you can get out of law school debt free through scholarships or are in a niche field. Although I do know lots of attorneys (licensed) that don't practice because they can make more money doing other things (but perhaps their law degrees gave them the edge in getting those jobs).
persimmon / 1121 posts
I'm not a lawyer, but I went through the whole process with my husband, and we would both urge anyone who was considering law school to think very very hard about that decision, and exactly why they're doing it. It is so much harder to find a job now that it used to be, and even if you do end up with a high paying job, most of the people who do it aren't happy and leave to do something else after a few years. SO NOT worth all the debt we took on.
honeydew / 7667 posts
@Aria: People never take me seriously when I tell them not to become a lawyer.
persimmon / 1129 posts
I'm a lawyer in a mid-sized city and the numbers seem pretty accurate to me.
Honestly I would tell someone to really research what lawyers do if they think they want to go to law school and not to take on too much debt to get a law degree.
I don't necessarily regret my choice because I do like what I do and I'm blessed to be able to work part-time, but if I had a crystal ball to see I was going to have a baby five years after graduation, I may not have chosen this career.
persimmon / 1121 posts
@MrsH: Honestly, I don't think my husband would have listened either if someone had told him. I think law schools are a huge part of the reason for this. They publish ridiculous false statistics about how many of their students get jobs and how much they make, but then when you can't find a job, they do absolutely nothing to help you.
GOLD / wonderful apricot / 22646 posts
@MrsH: I'm big on school/education. So if I had $$$ or a free ride I'd be in college forever and would have continued. I was going to night law school and working full time. I was promoted at my work and we wanted to have kids sooner rather than later. So it made sense for me at the time. But it certainly is not worth the investment and hasn't panned out well for a lot of my friends who stayed and finished the degree. On top of lawyers taking a hit, we're in Michigan (Metro Detroit) (as you know , it hasn't fared too well since the collapse.
papaya / 10473 posts
This is true for all my friends who are lawyers. A couple I am friends with both graduated from law school, and collectively they have six figures of debt. After a long search for jobs, they both now teach middle school history.
I intended to go to law school after undergrad, but I took a year off after graduation, and after that year I no longer had any desire... All my friends who already graduated talked me out of it.
honeydew / 7667 posts
@My Only Sunshine: Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy being a lawyer but I also had an atypical law school experience and work in a niche field.
@Aria: There is certainly lots of $$$$ in it for the law schools.
persimmon / 1364 posts
urgh I can write a whole novel on this issue. I'm a lawyer and I've been practicing for about 5-6 years. I graduated in 2008 during that huge economic crisis when noone was hiring. Firms either had major layoffs or those who hired were able to offer rock bottom salaries because people were desperate for jobs. As a result, all future raised have been tided to that rock bottom starting salary, (mine wasn't even that bad but still low.)
Being a lawyer involves very long hours, no guaranteed vacation days, (you can take as much time off as you want but you HAVE TO meet your billable hours quota), and very mentally draining work. I think I'm pretty good at what I do so there is definitely satisfaction in that but this is not some emotionally or soul fulfilling job. Most days are fine. Some days are horrid. It's a demanding job that allows my family to have a comfortable life style.
I would suggest that if you're in it for the potential super high income and nothing else, that law school is a mistake.
If you want to go to lawschool I would suggest first working at a lawfirm to understand what the day to day job really entails. If you're still interested after that then you'll be ok.
Oh the other thing I would say is that there is a HUGE difference between Big Firm and Small Firm salaries, culture and hours. People working in big firms do have high salaries but their expected billable hours are OUTRAGEOUS and in my opinion NOT realistic for anyone who wants a family or social life. Most firms across the country are small firms with more reasonable billable hours but also lower salaries.
honeydew / 7667 posts
@mrsjyw: Yeah, especially if your friends stayed in Michigan.
@grizz: That is really sad.
apricot / 483 posts
i work at a small firm in a small city, and i have a fantastic work/life balance - HOWEVER, i don't make anywhere near 6 figures, and doubt that i will ever come close.
i probably would have reconsidered law school if the market in 2006 when i started looked like it does now. there just aren't the same opportunities, and jobs are fewer and farther between, especially the ones where you make the kind of money people expect lawyers to make. the majority of people that i graduated with have been unemployed at some point or another, and its become a tragic part of being an attorney and looking for legal work.
pear / 1672 posts
I was just talking about this today. As a former attorney, I would tell people to think very, very strategically about going to law school. Unless you really, really want to practice and/or it is absolutely indispensable for what you want to do, then I would think twice. In many ways I wouldn't be in my industry if I had not gone to law school (long story), and it was harder to make the transition out of practicing than I thought it would. I could go on, but I think people need to be aware of the time and money that the degree requires and why they want to do it (which is really true for almost any advanced degree actually).
honeydew / 7667 posts
@Meowkers: good points. I try and explain it as "I have to think all the time" there is no down time, there is no busy work. If I am not actively using my brain I am not billing. It is exhausting.
GOLD / watermelon / 14076 posts
I have mixed feelings about this. Will be back later to share my thoughts.
persimmon / 1364 posts
Ok so I just glanced at the numbers in the article. I guess it's a national average but in larger cities these numbers are not accurate. I don't know any lawyers making $40K a year. And while some do start as low as $62K those are working in public interest/legal aide which is a small portion of the legal jobs out there. I can say that in 2008 at the height of the economic crisis I had a starting salary significantly higher than that at a small start up firm. This is not a bad salary. The problem and the reason for the dissatisfaction comes from the HUGE disparity between what law schools promise you and what you realize is reality after graduation.
cantaloupe / 6687 posts
Like lots of professions there is the potential to make a lot if you're at the top of your class and extremely bright but there are many who struggle to find jobs. And not everyone can get a high paying job out of law school.
I would definitely tell someone to seriously consider what they would enjoy doing 12-14 hours a day. Also they should go shadow some attorneys in various types of areas to get an idea of what their day is like. Working at the public defenders office is very different than working at a huge law firm which is really different than working at a small firm doing something like personal injury work.
There are all kinds of lawyers just like there are all kinds of doctors or engineers. A general practitioner might make $100,000 a year while a skilled surgeon can make two, three or four times that easily...same goes for attorneys.
All I know is it's a lot of money and a lot of time to get law degree so it's a not a decision that should be made without a lot of thought and consideration
ETA: I graduated in 2004 and things were still pretty good at that time. I worked for 7 years following graduation. At the biggest firms first year associates were making about $125,000 the smaller the firm the salary is usually lower unless it's a highly specialized practice area
coconut / 8234 posts
I am not a lawyer, but I spent almost a decade working for a law school. I wouldn't advise anyone to go to law school unless it was something they felt truly passionate about. Not because they want to make a lot of money, not because they watch a lot of law television shows.
If they can only get into a third tier and beyond, I'd say please go back to the drawing board, this is not for you. I worked at a third-tier school. The situation is dismal. Seriously. It's bad.
apricot / 251 posts
I'm in BigLaw and like it, but it only works because my spouse has a much lower key job and a ton of schedule autonomy. That said, even with the BigLaw paycheck, paying off two sets of law school loans is rough. We're 3 and 5 years out of school and still saving for a down payment on a house. We both did federal clerkships, and while it was terribly fun and prestigious, looking back I wish I joined my firm sooner just so we'd be further out of debt.
For those thinking about law school, I think the value prop works if you can get into a great school, but it gets very tricky not that deep into the rankings. Scholarships are a gamble because on a curve, there is no way to guarantee that you'll keep the required GPA.
bananas / 9229 posts
@Meowkers: I work in Manhattan and those numbers are accurate. A lot of first year attorney jobs at small and medium-ish sized firms start around $50K.
I try to deflect when asked that question... DH and I both have six figures of debt still, 6 years out of school. I would have a hard time surviving if not for his income. He "lucked" out being in a niche field. I was in a "dime a dozen" field and the pay reflected that. I would've been lucky to max my salary out in the low six figures. In Manhattan.
persimmon / 1364 posts
@LindsayInNY: Well that's depressing. I'm in LA and here those number are not accurate. When all my friends and I graduated from law school, starting salaries at small and medium firms were in the 70 and 80 thousand dollar range. Much more for big firms, (although those were not hiring as much.)
Like I said above, the only people I know with the sort of starting salaries mentioned in the article are those in public interest. And I would HOPE that attorneys going into public interest are not practicing law for the money.
In any event, this is certainly a tough field to be in regardless of the specific salary in question.
nectarine / 2220 posts
Not a lawyer, but I did my undergrad in Criminology so a lot of my friends went on to law school. It seems like a lot of them loved law school, not so much being a lawyer.
I imagine it's much like policing, where on TV every episode is essentially something that would be the highlight case of your career... Super awesome to discuss landmark, precedent setting, ground breaking law... not so much to rehash the same old boring contract/divorce eleventy billion times.
cantaloupe / 6751 posts
I could go on and on about this forever, but to keep it short- I regret law school (and the loans) so much. I enjoyed the school part so totally thought I would love being a practicing attorney. Nope. Hated it, hated it, hated it.
I quit to be a sahm. I'll prob go back to work when my daughter is older, but it won't be law.
Eta: I graduated in 07. Those numbers seem very, very (sadly) accurate to me
pomegranate / 3272 posts
DH is an attorney and considers it a huge mistake. He wishes he would have just gone to grad school to get his MBA instead.
pomegranate / 3331 posts
Yes, I'd recommend anyone interested in law go to law school! I love my job, I love the challenges, I love what I do. And i love being a professional, and having some control over my hours and stuff. But if your question is would I encourage anyone looking for a lucrative salary to go to law school? No. I wouldn't encourage someone to get a graduate degree just for financial gain, especially if it meant loans.
I started my job before the market crash and then got a series of pay cuts and salary freezes over the first few years. But I make a decent salary and have a job I love, so it has worked out well for me. I don't make as much as I could be making, but that's a lifestyle choice. Most of my friends who went to big law have long transferred out of firm life.
cantaloupe / 6131 posts
DH and I are both attorneys. Combined, we graduated with enough loans to buy a really nice new construction single family home. I work in the public sector so my hours and benefits are pretty good, but I make on par with what that article states. I don't particularly enjoy being a lawyer, but DH really does love it. He runs a successful law practice AND teaches business law at the undergraduate level. Between the two of us, we've always held 3 full time jobs and because of my husband's pay, we make decent money - on paper.
The first 1.5 years we were married, we made minimal payments but then decided that if I ever wanted a shot at staying home with our kids, the loans had to go. We've spent the last 2 years throwing every spare penny towards our student loans. We splurge on one vacation in the summer and traveling to visit our families over the holidays, but otherwise, we live in a cheap rental, we budget and meal plan, I coupon, and carry no other debt. We live on about 25-30% of our income. We put minimal money towards retirement and we are not buying a house any time soon. We are 33. Looking at us from the outside, I doubt you would ever think we were lawyers.
In the last 2-ish years since we got serious, we've paid off about 40% of our student loans. Because our income is higher on paper, we also pay an obscene amount of taxes. Right now, because we're expecting a baby, we're hoping to have everything paid off in 3-4 more years. That will be 7 years total that we will have worked, scrimped, and saved to JUST pay for those degrees. Next we will be stockpiling money for retirement. And then maybe in our 40s we can think of buying a home.
I tell everyone who asks me about law school that they should only go if someone else is paying for it or if they really, really love the law. Even going to law school for one year and dropping it out is better in the long run than doing all 3 years and being stuck. DH loved law school, loves being a lawyer, and loves teaching law. But he came out with twice as much debt as I did - and I was always sort of agnostic about the law. I'm good at what I do, but its not worth the debt to me. Honestly, once we pay off my loans, I don't even know if I will want to continue practicing. So much of my feelings towards working in this field have been associated with debt that I see my job like its indentured servanthood.
GOLD / watermelon / 14076 posts
It would depend on the person and what their undergrad degree was in. I didn't grow up dreaming of going to law school. I got my undergrad degree in Psychology, and a BA in Psyc is pretty useless. So I knew I needed a graduate degree. I originally planned on going into school counseling, but chose law school because school counselors are typically paid poorly.
I knew going into law school that I did not want a traditional job at a firm. I think expectations are key. If someone is going to law school purely to be like a lawyer they saw on tv, I would not recommend it (a vast majority of cases settle outside of court).
I went to a third tier law school with a scholarship that paid over half of my tuition. The scholarship was key. I still have loans but it could be much worse. DH went to law school on a full ride (they actually paid him a stipend). I would not advise someone to pay $30K+/year for law school unless they've got some serious connections.
I also think a lot of people think all JDs are created equal. Not true. You still have to work hard to make good grades. If you slack off and are at the middle/bottom of your class, then yeah, you're going to have a hard time finding a job (unless you have connections). I do have one friend from law school that was at the top and had a hard time, but everyone else at the top found a job easily (I also live in a big city, though).
I worked hard, did well, was on law review, and was able to find a great job. It's a non-traditional job, but you do have to be a licensed attorney to work where I do, so I wouldn't have had the opportunity if not for law school. I could make more working at a firm, but I like the work-life balance that my job affords.
I don't make six figures, but I make a hell of a lot more than I would in most other jobs that only require a BA in Psychhology.
papaya / 10343 posts
Don't have time to read the article but I'd never tell anyone to go to law school. I graduated in 2008 so most of my friends were lucky to get jobs, but we're at the point where a lot of people are looking to move and it is haaaaard. The job market sucks. The hours suck. Being a lawyer sucks. The pay either sucks or is so not worth it because the only jobs that pay well suck your soul in a thousand different ways. And yea. The loans. SUCK.
pomegranate / 3113 posts
The only reason I don't regret law school is that I was super fortunate to get a government job that offers me a great work-life balance for a fair salary. I had other plans when I enrolled but decided early on in 1L that being a traditional lawyer probably wasn't for me so I worked hard to track myself into gov't jobs. It could have seriously backfired...again, I really consider myself lucky. Also, I had a full-tuition scholarship at a solid regional school, usually in the 50-60 range of the rankings, so my debt load was relatively low (basically just from living expenses, books and supplies). I still don't make 6 figures (though I'm getting close) and will pretty much top out salary-wise in a couple years, but that's okay. A lot of my friends work many more hours for less pay.
If people tell me they're interested in law school, I tell them to think long and hard about it, read some of these articles, and at least shadow someone who works in the practice area they're interested in.
cantaloupe / 6751 posts
@MrsH: There was nothing about it that I enjoyed. I tried several different types of law - admin, criminal, litigation, etc, and I just wasn't happy. I think the biggest thing was that the adversarial nature of the field really got to me after awhile. It was exhausting constantly having to defend or fight... I don't know if that makes any sense, but after awhile, I found myself craving a job where I could just *be*.
blogger / pomelo / 5361 posts
I always tell people to think very, very carefully before going to law school and only do it if (1) it is their absolute passion (and I would recommend working at a law firm for a year or two even then to see if reality measures up to the vision in your head), or (2) they can go virtually debt free. DH and I went to a teir 3 school, but had full tuition scholarships. We still have a ton of debt from both of our living expenses for three years. We worked hard and got lucky and were both top 10%, law review, etc. My plan was always to work at a bigger firm for at least four years and knock my debt out quickly. I started at close to big law salary, but DH and I got engaged and he was in a job commitment for several years, so I quit and moved. I had to take a job that started at 54,000 a year. While it has great raises and I'm making pretty good money now, we're 4 years out and no where close to being out debt. It sucks to not feel like you have choices in your career or life because you have such a monumental amount of debt, especially considering that mos if my friends from law school despise their jobs. So, yeah, I say think very carefully...
kiwi / 548 posts
I think it just depends. A lot of career fields require you to go to grad school and people don't expect big salaries (social work, masters of public health, masters of library science, masters in planning, etc). Law school is an extra year, which is probably unnecessary and adds to the extra debt. I am an attorney and worked in a firm for awhile when I was younger and it appealed to me, but was able to get a well paying in house transactional job with normal hours that I have been able to take part time after kids. I feel fortunate, but I also have worked hard and am good at my job. I know lots of friends in other fields who have the same issues finding jobs as lawyers. I do have debt, but my rate is so low that my monthly payment is comparable with our monthly contributions to our kids college funds.
If you goal is to make a lot of money, law is not the field though. Partners in big firms still make no where near hedge fund/private equity and in my experience the hours do not level off for law partners like they do for finance partners. My husband works in finance, has no graduate degree and makes more than big firm lawyers in my area. Even still, I don't regret that I went!
I am rambling, but I would never discourage law school if that is your interest. I think pop culture can be misleading regarding lawyers, but with any sort of grad school having a goal when you start can help you to land on your feet and not just a pool of debt.
cantaloupe / 6687 posts
@pinkcupcake: a lot of the same feelings! Not sure if I'll go back to doing contract work where the pay is less but still ok or if I'll be lucky enough to find something else I enjoy.
@MrsH: like @pinkcupcake I did not enjoy being an attorney at a traditional law firm and for a lot of the same reasons. It is exhausting working in an adversarial role or for clients who are pissed they are being sued or have to sue..and even if you win in court it can be a battle collecting the judgment. And you often have to work for companies you don't like and don't respect. And I hate to generalize but a lot of people who are attracted to being attorneys are kind if jerks or egomaniacs. I hated billable hours and hated client management. I loved the research and the challenging nature of the job but most often I hated my time at work. I did really like appellate work and also when I did contract work (basically reviewing documents on a multi-million dollar lawsuit which is the type of work we all made fun of in law school but I ended up loving it). I know I could have done a different type of law outside the traditional law firm job but I was just ready to walk away to be a SAHM.
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