The NY Times had an interesting article recently regarding Amazon's workplace - suggesting only the strong survive and that it encourages challenging coworkers in ways that push people to limits. Reading this article or seeing the commentary, does it make you think twice about purchasing from Amazon or using Amazon prime?
Here is the NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-in-a-bruising-workplace.html?_r=0
And a link to a Forbes article commenting on the NYT one:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2015/08/15/what-the-ny-times-didnt-tell-you-in-its-amazon-workplace-expose/
I've worked in a rough corporate culture - not quite as bad as this but I do feel like surviving that experience has helped me in the long run. But the comments about warehouse employees not having ac in their working conditions a few years ago is making me think twice about using Amazon.
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I think Apple has some of the same culture to push employees. I still buy their products.
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I was JUST reading this after I saw someone link to it, saying they canceled their Prime subscription. I've worked for a major tech company, I know others who have worked for a variety of similar companies, and I've never experienced or heard stories like this article describes. Particularly the encouraging employees to basically backstab their coworkers. Wow. I've also worked in some (what I thought were...) tough environments but this surprised me. I don't see how you could possibly retain the top talent this way. The brightest will go elsewhere, and I imagine the people who rise to the top will be those who have no problem stepping on their coworkers to get there. Not good.
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I just finished reading the article and none of it surprises me. The tech industry is pretty cut throat and Amazon is well known for being one of the highest turnover employers. You get paid extraordinarily well (I've seen offer letters, and they are well above the norm) and in exchange you are expected to devote your life to them. Many people last exactly 2 years because that is when your stock vests.
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@sunny: my friend works there (Canadian office) and he gets the rest of his signing bonus at the end of 2 years and stocks vest after 4.
I'm personally not surprised by the article. Recruiters are pretty honest with you, and people know what kind of culture/environment they are getting into.
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I live in the Seattle area and know of someone who works for Amazon and she has complained about her work environment in the past. She hasn't complained of some of the stuff mentioned in this article, though. I think it depends on the department you work in. I have heard that the benefits they get are very good and senior management do try to boost their morale by having things like Macklemore play at one of their events. I think they even allow you to bring your pet into the office. I think little 'perks' here and there make your job not as miserable??
I do know of someone's husband who used to work for Pixar and while everyone thought he had such a cool job, he hated working there. The tech industry must be difficult to work in but I'm sure working there for a short period probably does wonders for your resume. I assume this is true for Microsoft and Apple. -
I knew that Amazon had a bad reputation. I wasn't aware of the extent of it though. But while I think their tactics are terrible, probably none of the people they talked to are destitute or forced to work there. They are highly paid with highly sought after skills. They choose to work there.
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I expected this article to be about the blue collar workers. No one ever feels bad for the white collar workers! I worked in investment banking so this is all relatively "meh" to me. I definitely won't stop using them over it.
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Meh, sounds not out of line with a lot of large corporations. FWIW, my dad works often in the warehouse and packing plant for a large retailor with a positive reputation, and there is no AC in their warehouse or most of the blue collar/no collar areas. So, that bit doesn't surprise me at all.
Eta: sounds like a shitty environment - but not surprising, sadly. Bottom line first comes with a price, and I think a lot of this stuff happens in other places too. My former employers policy on bonuses was that they were at manager discretion - and if your manager didn't think you "deserved" it, THEY (your manager) got to keep your bonus. So guess how many non-managers got bonuses, or even positive reviews, since a negative review ensured you didn't get a bonus. Backstabbing was also encouraged, because that's how one got ahead.
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Seems like they are honest about it. And I have to assume the compensation is commensurate with the culture or they wouldn't have people lining up every week to get employed. I wouldn't want to work there but I guess they have a right to run their business how they want to run it.
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Keeping my prime! One of DH's best friends works for Amazon, and he enjoys the challenge and gets to bring his dog to work! I think the interview process is very upfront about what you're getting into, and the perks can make it worth your while. I'm sure it's not for everyone (counting me!) but I think it's where some people can thrive, even if they can only make it work for a short while. The warehouse stuff sounds really dodgy though but I didn't read about that.
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Amazon's tough workplace culture for white collar and blue collars alike is not new. It's been well publicized for years. Therefore, I feel like people know what they're signing up for, and they've made their choice to work there. Amazon is also not the type of job where the workers are stuck there... Amazon operates in extremely large cities where there is usually many other employment opportunities.
While I 100% wish that Amazon would lighten up and be more welcoming, I will continue to buy thousands of dollars on Amazon stuff every year without guilt. Their company has been absolutely innovative and I love their customer service & efficiency.
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Hmm... Regardless of how much warning you get that it's a "tough" environment or how much you get paid, I don't think anyone signs up for or deserves this: "A woman who had thyroid cancer was given a low performance rating after she returned from treatment. She says her manager explained that while she was out, her peers were accomplishing a great deal. Another employee who miscarried twins left for a business trip the day after she had surgery. “I’m sorry, the work is still going to need to get done,” she said her boss told her. “From where you are in life, trying to start a family, I don’t know if this is the right place for you.”"
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@Mrsscb: NO ONE deserves it but some people do sign up for it, and they have to realize it's not a sustainable career choice during life difficulties. No one complains about the extremely tough culture of the armed forces; or the ridiculous conditions resident doctors and interns undergo, or the difficult standards of Ivy League colleges, or the cutthroat nature of politics.
FWIW, when I miscarried over a period of 3 weeks, had an ectopic scare and was sent to the emergency room, my assistant principal was an ass to me. He came in and left me notes about how I was sitting in my seat having students come up to me, instead of walking around to observe students; and logged that into our evaluation system. He also told me I should reschedule parent conferences for a couple days after the loss started, on my own time after school, "because you stay late anyway, right?" ... totally ignoring the fact that I just told him I might have to have emergency surgery affecting my future fertility (back when my ob thought it was ectopic). So, I know what it's like to be treated horribly during medical / pregnancy difficulties. However, I documented these interactions and went to HR, and I would have quit if he became principal.
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@DesertDreams88: yes, apparently a lot of people do realize it's not a sustainable career choice if the turnover rate is high. I think the only reason operating like this even works for Amazon is because the tech industry is so popular that even with people leaving after two years, there's more waiting behind them. But I do see changes happening -- many tech companies are falling over themselves these days to be more family and female friendly. I think this article is a big blow to Amazon, and I don't think they'll last with that culture. It definitely makes me think twice about being a consumer. As for people siging up for that treatment, I disagree. People may know it's a tough, competitive environment before they start, but I doubt they're aware that they'll be punished for getting cancer treatment...
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Unfortunately, every company has some of this going on. I've visited numerous plants and warehouses that don't have AC.
I'll still be utilizing Amazon and prime because it's too awesome for me not to.
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My husband has worked in several warehouses (both as a warehouseman and as an electrician working on a job at a warehouse), and none of them have had ac. At least in this area--PNW--I'm afraid that might be pretty standard.
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I didn't read the whole article, too long, but I'll still shop there. I've been reading a lot about about mellenials in the work place and I feel that they wouldn't do well in this environment, I'd hate to work there.
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Although some of the things brought to light are terrible and sound extremely unethical to me it's not surprising. I mean back stabbing happens in most jobs and there are always people who will throw someone under the bus no matter what the circumstances are. As previously mentioned I believe that people are aware of what they are getting into and if you are wanting to focus more on a family or a fluffy work environment then you shouldn't work for amazon.
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It won't change my Amazon shopping habits. I'm not really surprised by the NYT article because I think most companies have some of this going on, and the tech industry is notorious for being high pressure and expecting conformity. This article about Amazon comes to mind: http://www.theawl.com/2015/01/i-was-an-amazon-chew-toy
As for the no AC in the warehouses, that's pretty common and there are lots of jobs in the US that are not in an air-conditioned building - the only warehouses I've ever known to be air-conditioned were ones where the product was highly sensitive to temperature, like plastic resins.
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Eh. Its well known in the Seattle area that Amazon is a cutthroat environment and most ppl don't last very long. It definitely sounds like a stressful environment and one that I definitely would not want to be in, but the people are being compensated fairly and it's not like they have no choice - they can quit and look for a new job if they wish. I have no problems with it. I'm sure if it starts to affect their workforce (ie, they lose quality employees to companies that offer a better quality of life), Amazon will change their environment.
I love Prime and Amazon and will always use it.
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@MrsSCB: I don't think Amazon's treatment towards employees who go on leaves is any different from many American companies. There isn't much protection for employees - just look at the mat leave policies as a good example. My friend who works there knew going in that people leave after 2 years bc of stress and burnout but feel as if the payout at the end (monetary and experience) is worth it.
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It doesn't stop me from shopping on Amazon, I'll be keeping my prime! There are things that would stop me from using a company, but praising people for being back-stabbing isn't one of them.
I live in the hot, humid south and work construction. I've been to my fair share of warehouses and not one of them has had A/C. I'd be surprised if that was the norm, cooling a huge warehouse would be so expensive!
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It sounds like a place I wouldn't want to work, but it isn't surprising. I think they have a big enough name that there will always be applicants so they don't care about turn over and treating employees nicely. It sounds like Disney in that respect. I love Amazon Prime so I'm keeping it.
The majority of my in laws and family work in manufacturing in various industries, including my husband. Warehouses rarely have AC unless the product requires refrigeration. Production floors in plants are also not climate controlled. DH spends at least 50% of the day on the floor so in the summer he wears golf polos and dry wicking underclothes. When you take a job in a warehouse or plant you know that it comes with the territory. Most of these types of jobs pay all their employees very well and have safety measures in place to keep people from overheating in the summer.
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@MrsSCB: that was the part that stood out for me as well. Unfortunately I don't think it's limited to Amazon but as someone who had to cancel on a brand new job due to illness, it's disappointing.
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@Freckles: I'm just going by my/friends' experiences in the tech industry (places like AOL, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.) -- while many are very competitive and foster a 24/7 work environment, I was surprised and disgusted by the overall attitude towards employees displayed in the article. Yeah, there are people in every company who backstab their coworkers, but I've never worked somewhere that actually encouraged it by telling you how to secretly rat out other people. And putting someone on a performance improvement plan right after she had a stillborn child is shockingly cold. Regardless of whether this is common or not, it still seems odd to me to just say, "Oh, well, everyone in the industry has to deal with that." Yikes.
ETA: and FWIW, my friend who works at Google took five months of maternity leave (she returned in March). As I mentioned, most tech companies these days are working on projecting a much more family and female-friendly environment.
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I didn't read the original article, but I got a Linkedin email this morning with an Amazon employee's response to that article:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestling-big-ideas-nick-ciubotariu
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@LindsayLou: & @MrsTiz: It's not just the PNW or the South...the NE (and I would think everywhere in the US) is the same. My brother worked for UPS in college loading up the trucks prior to delivery, and they certainly didn't have air conditioning. I agree that expecting companies to cool a warehouse for their workers is unrealistic.
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@MrsSCB: I think the key word is "projecting", not actually creating. For instance, everyone was so hyped up when Netflix announced that employees can take up to a full year of maternity leave. But I'm not sure it really will work out to be the wonderful change people are making it out to be. First of all, it was motivated by wanting to retain top talent, not actually wanting to do the right thing for families. They only implemented the change for the streaming side of their business where more skilled/higher paid workers are.... the employees who sort and ship DVDs for that part of the business will not get this benefit. Secondly, making the maternity leave policy so flexible will likely end up hurting a lot of women who will probably be looked upon poorly if they actually opt to take advantage of it. If Marissa Mayer's maternity leave was any indication, very few people will take anywhere near a year of leave.
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@Truth Bombs: I completely agree there is a lot more that needs to be done for these companies to actually be family friendly, and the Netflix thing is far from perfect. Personally, I'd prefer something more concrete to, "Hey, just take whatever time you want!" That's too ambiguous. But I'm also kind of confused about the reaction to this Amazon story. I see people complaining all the time about the terrible mat leave policies in this country, and then something like this comes out and everyone says, "Well, that's not surprising, that's just how it is for everyone." So...do people want things to change for the better, or no? Because if everyone just keeps accepting this as "industry standard" then it's definitely not going to happen.
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This article doesnt bother me at all - although I didnt read the whole thing bc it was too long.
This is the reality of many companies and industries in the US.
The backstabbing thing is what I find most interesting...does it matter what your colleagues tell your boss about you if you are doing your job and your best?
No one is forcing these people to work at Amazon - if they dont like it leave!
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Saw this article about a rebuttal from Amazon Exec.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33957484?ocid=socialflow_facebookIf I was not in the hospital, I would ask my friend if her work environment has or will change after these articles were written.
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My mom and step-father both worked for a large company before they retired. My step-father was the VP of Corporate Growth, basically mergers and acquisitions. He was available to upper administration 24 hours a day, on vacation, no matter what. I remember at one point we were on a family vacation in St. Thomas and he was on his phone so much I threatened to throw it in the ocean.
I could never have worked in a company that expected that of me. And that's why I don't work in corporate America. Some people are built for that; some people aren't.
I found this rebuttal by Jeff Bezos intersting. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/technology/amazon-bezos-workplace-management-practices.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-1&action=click&contentCollection=Business%20Day®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article I'd love to hear what would happen if someone actually did email him directly about unfair/harsh management behavior?
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@MrsSCB: You're right about the reaction being confusing and after re-reading the article and thinking about it some, I think my personal reaction is kind of "meh" because the article sounds like a bunch of white-collar ex-Amazon employees rationalizing why they couldn't succeed there.
Other than the 1 paragraph about the temperatures in the PA warehouse, the article barely mentions how Amazon treats the blue-collar workers. That would probably get a much stronger reaction from me. (And having read some articles about the way they treat the majority of their workers today, I am reconsidering my use of Amazon.)
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@mrs.shinerbock: So white collar workers complaining about working environment is just rationalization for why they couldn't succeed but blue collar workers complaining about working environment is cause for you to stop buying from a company?
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@Truth Bombs: that is quite a generalization of what I said, but certainly not accurate in the details.
I said that my reaction to THIS article was "meh" because the article comes off as people rationalizing why they can't make it. Other articles that I have read recently about the working conditions of the vast majority of Amazon workers (i.e. the warehouse blue-collar workers) have been written in a way that I have a stronger reaction and am reconsidering my use of Amazon.
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@mrs.shinerbock: I was focusing on your statement that the article would probably get a much stronger reaction from you if it focused on the treatment of blue collar workers. Therefore implying that the treatment of blue collar workers is more worthy of reaction. I apologize if I misunderstood you.
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@mrs.shinerbock: Yeah, they definitely could have gone into more detail regarding the warehouse issues. I've also been reading a bit more about that and it sounds brutal. This is the most in-depth I've found about the PA situation. It's a few years old at this point, but still interesting in light of this new story. Trying to imagine doing physically demanding work in over 100-degree temperatures, ouch.
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/amazon/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917-story.html
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I have a lot of friends who have worked at Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Amazon and they all say that Amazon is by far and away the worst working environment they have ever experienced.
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@MrsSCB: @mrs.shinerbock: I think it also depends on the region. My friend (a manager who works closely with warehouse employees) told me that warehouse workers are treated pretty well in Canada and work 40 hours a week. He actually felt that the article was inaccurate of Amazon as a whole.
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