I normally would never post or participate in a controversial thread, but I wanted to share this article and hear people's thoughts on it. I'm interested to see the responses. The article was very interesting to me.
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After the last transgendered discussion I read every article in favor of letting transpeople use the restroom of their choice and watched the first season of Transparent. There was an ugly scene when the dad was yelled at in the women's restroom. I even dispelled the belief at a family gathering about straight men, predators, abusing the ability to use the women's restroom.
So reading this article is interesting because I don't share the same history or experience of sexual abuse. For this woman the belief that predators will take advantage of this situation is very real and very scary. Yet, I still don't quite believe it myself although I know we have sickos everywhere. Now, for extra privacy and space I use the family restroom and imagine people that feel vulnerable (abuse victims, transgender people) use these restrooms already. My answer to her would be seek the comfort level and privacy you want and need without trampling on the rights of others.
These are the news story links to the men she mentioned in the article.
http://abclocal.go.com/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=9102790
http://m.ajc.com/news/news/local/cross-dressing-man-arrested-for-exposure-at-walmar/nQddG/
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: That's a very interesting point. However, from my understanding of the article, it was written more as a desire to protect other women and less about her need for comfort and security. I don't think she wants to "trample the rights of others", she addresses that here: "it is nothing short of negligent to instate policies that elevate the emotional comfort of a relative few over the physical safety of a large group of vulnerable people."
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@Mrs. Pen: She is advocating against transgender people being allowed to use restrooms of the gender they identify with. Sure, it comes off a genuine concern, but it still against those laws. "I feel a sense of urgency to invite people to consider the not-so-hidden dangers of these policies before more and more of them get cemented into place. Once that happens, the only way they’ll change is when innocent people get hurt."
Earlier she says, "I’d much rather risk hurting a smaller number of people’s feelings by asking transgender people to use a single-occupancy restroom that still offers safety than risk jeopardizing the safety of thousands of women and kids with a policy that gives would-be predators a free pass." Instead of using single-occupancy restrooms as a safe place for children and adults she still thinks laws keeping anatomically men out of communal restrooms will keep them safe. I don't believe that's the case. There is nothing stopping anyone from going into the "wrong" restroom now. There was nothing stopping anyone from going into the "wrong" restroom 20 years ago.
ETA: This was my big thing on the last thread- semi penis-panic, "What of my right to do my darndest to insist that the first time my daughter sees the adult male form it will be because she’s chosen it, not because it’s forced upon her?" Whether the person is transgender or predator this may happen with the new laws, but does seeing a glimpse of a penis mean ones safety is at risk? No.
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While I empathize with her, it sounds like her anxiety is getting in the way of lawful thinking. I agree that this woman's better choice would be to use a family bathroom herself. It wouldn't be right for her to ask others to do that for HER comfort.
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@dandelion: completely agree that she should use an individual bathroom instead of taking away the rights of a group. Although this woman states that she doesn't think transgender people are predators, her fear that a relatively large number are pretending to be transgender in order to get access to women is absurd.
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@Mrs. Pen: I get it. She's been traumatized. But what @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: said is true. There hasn't been anything stopping rapists from preying on girls and women in bathrooms. I used to use the men's restroom all the time at bars when the ladies was closed. Women have been raped by men in bathrooms. There have been girls raped by men in their college dorm bathrooms. This seems like a veiled attempt to block the rights of transgendered people using a faulty argument.
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It comes across to me like the argument that gay men shouldn't be Boy Scout leaders because they're all pedophiles. She's making assumptions and generalizations that are frankly just bigoted and unfair. And it's a shame she's hiding behind her trauma as an excuse to single out this population. The reality is, anyone can pretend to be anything if they want to victimize someone.
And as a rape victim myself, I sympathize with her trauma and the related fear that follows an experience like that.
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@littlebug: she isn't making that argument though, she isn't saying it's the transgendered individuals who would be the perpetrator.
@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: @mrsjazz: I do think that's a legitimate argument and I'm not saying otherwise, that anyone could enter whatever bathroom they wish at anytime.
I personally don't think that just because someone's personal experiences or feelings influence their views/opinions makes it a faulty argument, though. She is entitled to her opinions/views on the situation, as much as anyone here is. I think it will just always be a very two-sided argument, though. People will never fully agree. Just please don't think that the other side is coming at it as "transphobia". I mean maybe some people are, but I don't think most are.
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@Mrs. Pen: Maybe faulty is not the right word but she's using her personal fears and emotions as an argument that there will be more rapes when many of these bathrooms are currently easily accessible by rapists.
It's not a strong argument.
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I think her main point is that we are so caught up trying to make things “fair” for everyone that sometimes we forget that there are consequences / repercussions to doing that. She is pointing out a possible consequence for this new policy which I think is a reasonable thing to say.
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@mrsjazz: Thank you, I think that's a better representation of your argument. It's not a strong argument because any one could just go into the women's bathroom as it is.
@Raindrop: Yes, I agree with that. -
@Mrs. Pen: this is just absolutely not a legitimate argument in my view. This is a person who was sexually assaulted by someone she knew, as virtually all sexual assaults are, who is demonizing strangers from accessing washrooms to urinate or deficate in and wash their hands, as one does in a washroom. These are two completely disparate and unrelated things. And I say that as a sexual assault survivor.
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In reading the examples of cross-dressing men (links in my first post) that used access to the women's restroom to perpetuate crimes it's clear that those in the restrooms realized something seedy was going on and spoke up. From what I can tell the seedy actions (not the way the men looked) caused the other people in the restroom to seek help. Again, I don't think banning legit transpeople out of bathrooms makes bathrooms a safer place.
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While I certainly sympathize with what she's been through, I don't think it's relevant to this discussion. The thing is, if a man wants to enter a bathroom to assault a woman, no law is going to stop him. This statement: "Why would people knowingly invite further exploitation by creating policies with no safeguards in place to protect them from injury?" -- what safeguards are currently in place? There are no bouncers outside of bathrooms making sure men don't go in. If someone is the kind of person inclined to assault a woman in a bathroom, they will do it regardless of the rules. Clearly they don't have much respect for the law anyway... I did Google the three names she mentioned, and all three were cases of cross-dressing men who were arrested for various crimes (indecent exposure, assault, voyeurism). How is the fact that they were cross-dressing at the time even relevant? They did something illegal and it would have been illegal if they were dressed as a man or as a woman. They were caught, arrested, and charged, which is what would happen regardless of whether trans people are allowed in the bathroom or not.
ETA: She also completely contradicts herself by basically saying exactly what I wrote: "perpetrators are addicts so committed to their fantasies they’ll stop at nothing to achieve them." <-- Uh huh, exactly. No rule or law will stop them.
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my understanding is that there are no cases of predators using these laws to attack women/children. There are, however, many, many cases of trans women being attacked for using the men's restroom because they weren't allowed in the women's. Forcing people to "out" themselves is a real danger.
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@Mrs. Pen: this has become a big issue at the hospital my mom works at. She works for a veterans hospital and there have been large numbers of female PTSD (from sexual abuse in the military) patients that have made complaints about men who identify as women using the woman's restroom. There was one woman who ran screaming from a restroom because she thought the man (biologically) had followed her into the restroom to rape her while the man said that he identifies as a woman and has the right to use that restroom.
I don't necessarily know the right answer. How can we protect the rights of everyone; the woman who was attacked and raped by a predator or the transgender individual who may have also faced an attack in a public restroom because of their identity and the way people view them? It seems like a very difficult task and I don't exactly know where I stand. For myself I don't care about transgender individuals using the restroom of their choice but for someone with else with a history of physical abuse I could see how this could be traumatic and terrifying.
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@Mrs. Train: thank you for your reply, it was very eloquently written. Your words express my very thoughts, as well. "How can we protect the rights of everyone" exactly, I think that's all what we want. We want to acknowledge the very valid feelings of everyone.
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As a victim of rape, I don't agree. Transgender people should be able to use whichever restroom they please. I understand her anxiety but she's letting it control unrelated aspects of life.
@MrsSCB: agreed. Rules aren't going to stop a rapist.
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@Mrs. Pen: I think everyone's feelings should be acknowledged but I don't think feelings should be used to create laws. I was in a traumatic car accident and hate getting in cars. I think all cars should be banned. I don't think teens should be given licenses. But I can back up my feelings with some facts. (Though that won't change anything about cars). More than 1 million people die every year in car accidents. I have no idea how many people have permanent injuries because of this.
I understand being tormented every day by a traumatic experience and how those very real and valid feelings can cloud judgment.
Single use bathrooms would be the safest bet for her so as not to be triggered.
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I completely disagree with her point of view and hVe also been raped. We are all on the honor system so to speak right now with regards to the restroom we choose to use. There's nothing stopping a predator from using a woman's restroom currently and allowing for trans people to use their bathroom of choice won't change a thing. There's always a risk of being victimized in a restroom or in public in general. If a victim of abuse isn't comfortable with a public restroom they should find a single use one, not punish trans people who haven't done anything wrong. They're not the predators.
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