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I agree that "submissive" is a slippery word.

I'm Catholic, we read some of Ephesians at our wedding, and we endeavor to practice it. (It actually says "subordinate", not "submissive" in the version of the Bible I use, but the concept of "under" or "inferior" is evident in both.)

I think it's important to point out that Paul starts out the whole shebang on marriage by emphasizing mutuality ("Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ."). There is a common goal in marriage. There is also a basic recognition of complementarity in the Bible's description of husbands and wives that we try to emulate. The love part of the equation that Paul goes on about at length in that passage is absolutely critical. I think that separating out the part about subordination for examination without considering the rest of what Paul writes about is highly problematic.

To answer the question: No, I don't think following the framework for marriage laid out in the Bible is unattainable today.

I think it could work and it does work for me. I agree submission doesn't mean slavery. Modern women know how to give away some control in order to balance their relationship. I let my husband lead up to a certain extent but trust me he knows where I would draw the line and he wouldn't dare cross it. I let him be the man in the house. There are certain things I like for him as the man to do and some things I like to do as the woman of the house. I find that it works great for us. I've seen a lot of ppl who struggle in their relationships when the woman overpowers the man and emasculates him.

@Mrs. Jacks: sorry it came out wrong. I don't mean that all strong women emasculate men. But sometimes there's a power struggle when the man is also an alpha male but his lady is also a alpha female. I think most of the time the woman wins out. But men kind of have to be a man. I mean everyone's relationship is different. I've been in relationships where I was the stronger one but I wanted/needed my partner to match me/challenge me at least and he couldn't (i think i scared him too much) and that just couldn't work out for us. I don't mean to generalize

I feel lucky to be married to a man who laughs at the idea of a wife being "submissive" to her husband. That kind of thinking weirds him out, and I love him for that. We are equals in our marriage, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

@BabyMats: Being the neck is how I interpret the whole, "The man is the head of the wife." verse anyways, lol. It's the connection thing, IMO, not who's over who.

@Mrs. Jacks: haha! well thanks for giving me the chance to expIain! think it's so true what you said about his own insecurities. That was probably the single biggest difference between my then relationships and my now marriage. Hubby has an unshakable sense of self and confidence that it so attractive to me. And that confidence doesn't come from financial worth, looks, fit etc. it's from knowing who he is and his worth. I think when you have a man or woman who is already a
Bit insecure and give them a partner who is very strong it compounds that insecurity within themselves. At least that was my experience.

@runsyellowlites: Can you explain "Men need respect and women need love?" That one doesn't make sense to me...I feel like I need love AND respect, not just one or the other. Of course, I've always interpreted love to equal automatic respect, and maybe you do, too, so that statement negates itself?

Many of the things you've stated that a man must do for his wife - sacrifice, keep anger and bitterness out of his heart, do what's best for his whole family at all times - are things I strive to do, too, not for religious purposes, but because I want to. Men, in my opinion, should not have to have all that responsibility, both partners should have equal responsibilities in terms of keeping the finances, the family, the home, etc, running smoothly.

I'm also not entirely down with submitting to my husband in order to reach my full potential, though I'm not quite sure what type of potential @MrsRoo: is referring to. Is it job-related, wife/mother related, or...? Honestly, if my husband was pushing me to do something that I wasn't 100% sure was the right decision or that I wasn't 100% committed to, I wouldn't do it. I'd push back. I feel strongly that I am my own keeper, that I, and only I, fully know my wants and needs, and it's my responsibility alone to reach my full potential in all aspects of my life. Having a partner who supports me in reaching my potential, is, of course, very important, and makes reaching that potential a lot easier, but taking me off of my own track and expecting me to just blindly trust that he's right isn't something I'm interested in doing.

I have never, ever liked the phrase that we, as women, need to "let men be men." I don't need to "let" my SO do anything. He's biologically a man and always will be, whether that means he is not always dominant or doesn't always head the household has no bearing on his gender. Nothing I ever say or do should have the ability to subtract from his masculinity. If he doesn't feel like a man, that's on him, not me - unless, of course, I'm asking him to dress up in women's clothing and don makeup and a wig.

I feel certain that if someone were to analyze our relationship, they'd find that I am primarily dominant, and that is how are personalities have fallen. I like having control over things and I'm more decisive. Of course, we discuss everything and take each others opinions into account, that's a given. And of course there are things he feels more strongly about that I do, so I don't argue with him on those issues, because I simply don't care enough to do so. He understands my personality and respects it.

For all intents and purposes, I am the head of our household, and we are OK with that. It works. I have to assume that if our personalities/beliefs on submission/dominance clashed, we would not have gotten together in the first place.

ETA: I consider myself an atheist.

@IRunForFun: It's more a matter of "love language" almost (only not quite)... Women feel loved when we are taken care of, made to feel secure, and made to feel like our feelings matter. If we don't get these things we feel a lack of love. Men on the other hand won't feel loved (well not complete & content) by receiving these things, rather they feel loved when they receive respect & honor. We're just created different...... there are a couple really great books I suggest to ALL men & ALL women that really get into these things. For women it's Captivating, by John & Stasi Eldgredge & for men it's Wild at Heart by John Eldgredge. Both fantastic reads & really speak on the very core things that really all men & all women have.... they very desires of our hearts as male vs female (not personal desires)..... AND while I do still do my part to keep the environment of our home open & invite I'm not the one given that responsibility, he is... it's him that will stand judgment for dropping the ball on those things, not me. I didn't make that rule though, God did. lol

Like I prefaced though... there are certain things that if you do them you will reap good back, regardless of religious belief... people have good marriages despite following God's formula or not, BUT you can only have the "over abundant & exceedingly blessed" anything that God has & wants for you, if you do it God's way (per what God says).

@meredithNYC:

@runsyellowlites: See, I just feel like saying " Women feel loved when we are taken care of, made to feel secure, and made to feel like our feelings matter. If we don't get these things we feel a lack of love. Men on the other hand won't feel loved (well not complete & content) by receiving these things, rather they feel loved when they receive respect & honor" is a huge generalization and is assuming things about me, individually, and my husband, individually, that really don't apply to us. Just because I am a woman and he is a man does not mean that we automatically need the same things as all other women and men. Who are these people (in this specific case, the authors of the books you mentioned) to tell us what we need? Shouldn't we be the judges of that? Am I not supposed to have personal desires, only the same desires as all women, everywhere?

Also, where does that leave same-sex couples? Two women, two men, etc. Then do they get to be equal, or does one woman have to "be the man" and one man "be the woman." I think that type of situation clearly demonstrates that dominance/submission is much more about personality than gender.

Of course, this is probably why I am not religious.

Also, what does "over-abundant and exceedingly blessed" mean? If I feel like I'm incredibly blessed (though I'd use the term fortunate) and have an over-abundance of love in my life, am I wrong because I don't subscribe to God's formula?

@IRunForFun: Oh... No I () that about the "not personal desires bc" we all have personal desires which are based off our own personal experiences & personalities... Those are separate from what I was talking about. And the bases of generalization would come from how God, Himself, created men & created women....

Since you & I are coming from completely different ends of the worldview spectrum though it only makes sense that you would see things differently, like you do. I see my world through biblical understanding while you see the world through your own understanding.... My foundation for marriage is through Gods design & yours is what you make it.

In essence though, I think I've mentioned it before on another thread, because of my worldview I see Gods way as *the* way for everyone, so the understanding I've gained on men vs women & marriage would be something I would prescribe to all... Thus the "generalization".

@runsyellowlites: thanks for clarifying the "respect vs. love" comment; I was curious about that too. But, for me, making me feel like my feelings matter IS respect. I know my husband loves me 100%, but if he doesn't acknowledge my feelings what I'm mad about is lack of respect for me as a person, not a lack of loving me. I tend to shy away from any philosophy or idea that works in absolutes, as in men/women are *always* like this and *never* like that. It just doesn't ring true to me. And the gender assigning makes me uncomfortable too (@luckypenny: said it for me).

I also don't like the word "submissive" because it's got a negative vibe to it. If I'm "submitting" it's because I have to, not because I want to. What some women are describing as submissive behaviors I would call "compromise" or "partnership".

@IRunForFun: in the current situation I'm referring to, its work and motherhood related. I've expressed interest in the past in starting my own business, as a sort of dream-never going to really happen-scenario. Hubs feels the time is right for us to jump on it, and I'm scared of failing. My trust in him is allowing me to put aside those negative feelings and move forward.

And just like a lot of the ladies here have a hard time *not* thinking of being a submissive wife as a negative thing, I have a hard time thinking that it is anything but good. I grew up with parents in that type of marriage (for 20 years before an untimely death) and my in laws have the same dynamic married for 38 years. I've seen it work my whole life, I don't really have a reason to doubt it, you know?

Ugh, I'm so bad at articulating what I'm thinking through the Internet, especially attached to a fussy baby!

I just want to throw out another book suggestion for those who may be unfamiliar with a Biblical view of marriage/gender roles. It's called Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood by John Piper and Wayne Grudem (mainly). @runsyellowlites: I tend to find those books a bit unhelpful when thinking through these issues.

@runsyellowlites: Yes, we definitely see the world differently, and that's perfectly OK! At the same time, I just don't really agree with someone saying, basically, "I understand that you have a different perspective, but I know that MY way is the only right way."

@MrsCB: I completely agree, I don't really understand that either! Why can't I be blessed and have an over-abundance of happiness without believing in God's formula? Is there a different kind of blessing/happiness that I don't know about?

@MrsRoo: Ohhh, OK, see...I can completely understand that scenario. To me, that sounds more like something you do actually want, but you're a bit afraid, and your husband is encouraging you. That doesn't sound like he's pushing you to do something you have never wanted/considered doing.

@Weagle: I think it's close. I do think that finding that person who will love you your entire life is an amazing gift that people all over the world, regardless of religious philosophy, find. But I'm mainly trying to say there are many ways to a happy life and happy marriage, and following "God's Plan" is just one of them.

@looch: Interesting thought! I guess I'm just getting caught up on the idea that God says you can have it if you follow his formula....but there's no definition of what IT is.

I think this thread is a good example of how we can't really generalize about what makes a good marriage, whether you describe it as blessed, fortunate, over abundant or something else. My DH and I have a great marriage where we share leadership roles and support, love, and respect each other as equal partners. That "plan" works very well for us.

@Weagle: Oh that's not biased at all! tehe! I'll have to check it out!

I'm sure it can work as some of you already admitted it works for you but it wouldn't work for me. My relationship is a partnership and both of us make decisions. If anything, my stance in some issues holds more weight because my job is the driving factor in where we live and where he has the option to work.

I also do not think I need to give deference just because he has a penis and I don't

@honeybear: I don't agree with your point of marriage, though I'm an evangelical Protestant and have no clue what is taught in the Catholic Church. I would say the point of marriage is to mirror Christ's love to the church with the goal of God being glorified and the Gospel being sent forth.

ETA: Yes, we are definitely off-topic here