Many religions put a focus on wives being submissive to their husbands. In regards to submission (in a respectful, not abusive relationship) do you think this works in society today? Do you or anyone one you know follow this practice?
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I think it COULD work, if that was how the husband and wife wanted to work it. Like if maybe the wife just felt more comfortable with the husband making most of the decisions, hopefully after listening to the wife's input? BUT I don't really know. Hubs and I definitely aren't like that. I'm the more domineering one in the relationship.
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I think it could work in some relationships, but def not *mine* lol. im wayyyy to opinionated and believe everyone should have a equal say. it saddens me to see relationships like that because I my experience, the person who is "submissive" is not happy with that label and wants to be considered an equal parter even if they do not come out and say it, their actions show it!
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Yeah, I am in no way submissive. Both DH and I are laid back, but truthfully I am the one to be more assertive in the relationship.
I agree with @Adira that it could work if that's what is important to the couple. My sister and her husband are very religious, and I think their relationship is like that when it comes to religion, but otherwise she is just as assertive as I am.
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It works for us. I'm religious, DH is not, yet I follow the Bible's instructions on the man being the head of the household and it does really well for us.
I do stick up for myself when I need to, but I usually don't and just go with the flow.
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@Dandelion: ditto! This is us too except DH is also religious.
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I am not religious, DH is a Bible reader. Lucky for me his views are a good mix of modern and traditional or at least he has accepted he didn't marry an overly traditional woman. There are quite a few things he is capable of doing himself that I do. It makes him happy and doesn't take too much effort on my part. He doesn't fix his plate or get himself a beverage when I am in the room. That act alone makes him feel like the king of our castle. He doesn't "rule" making decisions autonomously instesd we collaborate and quite often he defers to me. I think in different areas of our relationship we are submissive to each other. One reason I fell in love with him was because he had a plan for us. I am happy he is the head of our household, I trust him to do the right thing and put our family first.
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It works for us, in our own modified way. I used to be overbearing and controlling, but found that when I took a step back and actually let my husband be a man, things happened like I wanted them too. And I don't nag anymore. We're both happier.
Like @dandelion: I'm more in daily contact with my faith, whereas DH has a different approach. I would love for us to get on the same page, but I'm giving him the space to be the head of our house.
I'm aware that to most people this sounds ridiculous, and I would have agreed a few years ago. It works for us though.
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@Mrs. Polish: We have a no nagging policy in our house. It stems to DS, too. It makes our whole family really work well together.
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Also, @Mrs. Lemon-Lime: brings up a good point. Both partners have to be submissive to each other in some ways for this to work.
It's a two sided thing. DH isn't just the king who does nothing ever.
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I think if it works for the wife and husband, then sure.
DH & I are definitely more equal partners.
@Mrs. Polish: @Dandelion: I would have never guessed that you two are the more "submissive" ones in the relationship!
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I think it really depends on the couple. It may work for some. Doesn't work for anyone I know. It certainly doesn't work for us. I am too type A. We are a partnership. Equal in all major decisions. If we swing in any one direction, I am the more dominate one. But that is what works for us. I couldn't be submissive if I tried and he doesn't want a submissive woman. He enjoys my assertiveness and I love that he sees me as an equal. But again, that is simply what works for us. If a couple finds they are more comfortable and enjoy their relationship with a submissive wife then all power to them! Every couple and every relationship is different. Not better, just different.
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@regberadaisy: I think it has more to do with the fact that I can go with the flow a lot better than he can. He's pickier about everything in life than I am.
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The word submission is a slippery one for me...I don't think I am being submissive if I get my husband a glass of water. To me, submission is acknowledging that someone has power over you, that even if you don't want to do something, you do it, because that is what you are ordered to do.
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I agree with @looch: The word submissive does have negative connotations. But both my husband and I are christians, we do believe in the husband as the head of the home, having said that we each have an equal say
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I think that is works depending on the personalities of the people involved.
Neither DH nor I are religious at all and I'm way too much of a loud-mouth to be "submissive" but we do have a fairly traditional family structure at the moment (DH is the breadwinner, I stay at home and care for the baby and the house).
I do know people who have a dynamic like this in their marriage and it seems to work fine as long as both parties are on board. And yes, most of them are religious.
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I grew up in an environment where many of the families we knew practiced this. What I saw was that consolidation of power into the hands of one person sometimes lead to capriciousness, problems with money management, and erosion of self esteem (not to mention the extreme cases of cheating and abuse).
This is not to say that a model of dominance and submission can't work, but too often I saw women submitting to god's will (through her husband's decision making) where there was little or no recourse for the needs of the family.
I know that the whole scenario is supposed to work differently than that (godly man takes into account the best interest of the family) but too often for my taste, it morphed into something different-- where there were tests of breaking the will of the wife and children to "humble them in the eyes of the lord".
Needless to say I looked for a more egalitarian relationship. But, again, if people can find a balance where the spouse is a decision maker and leader while putting the needs of the family first, I think that's great. I just didn't see too much of that growing up, and have come to the conclusion that singular power corrupts, while joint decision making protects from that.
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@regberadaisy: it's a confusing word because every couple is different. I don't hold back and always speak my mind. All of our decisions are discussed from both sides before anything is done. Some people look at us and think I'm in charge, but my husband is happier when he's required to step up and be the man. I tell him that I refuse to be both of us.
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Submissive doesn't mean slave. It doesn't mean keeping silent. It doesn't mean you never get to have an opinion or make a decision. It comes from the idea that men and women have different, but equally important complementary roles. In our house DH is certainly the leader of the home. That looks like him being primarily responsible for the spiritual growth of our family. Practically, an example is home being primarily responsible for discipline when he is home. The only decision I'm not a part of is what he eats for lunch... There is no lording over me. We have different roles that complement each other, but our marriage would break down if we weren't equal partners.
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I have an relative who remarried (it was a widow situation) and their vows included the idea of wife being submissive to her husband. We were all aghast because it was a new religion for her and we felt like she had been brainwashed, plus she has a strong personality so it felt like she would be giving up part of herself.
As the years have gone on I think she would still say they fall into that roll but it looks different than I expected. I think for them it means she puts him first because she trusts that he puts her first. I have no doubt they discuss things that come up in their life and make a decision that is best for the two of them.
When I think about my own marriage we handle it in the same way even though I choose not to use the word submissive. We look out for each other, have the other persons best interest at heart and fall into traditional rolls. There are times my husband has encouraged me to take a certain path I wasn't sure of but it was because he saw something I couldn't see at that time. Having someone who can help you make those hard decisions is one of the best parts of having a spouse in my opinion.
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I definetely think it can work, however it would not work in my relationship. Going into our relationship we were very clear we wanted a 50/50 partnership. I don't hold back and I always speak my mind, as does DH. It works for us.
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As long as violence/abuse/disrespect are not occurring within a relationship, then it's up to the people involved to figure out what works for them. My husband and I are equal partners, and that's what works for us.
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Submissiveness or differing levels of authority and control based on anatomy are no bueno in our house.
My husband does not want to be "king of the castle"/"head of household"; he wants a completely equal partnership. The things in the house we are responsible for are based on our skills with each task, not gender roles. Same with parenting tasks.
We're not religious.
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The definition of the word submissive is to be "unresistingly obedient, compliant, amendable", so i have a hard time wrapping my brain around other definitions. It doesn't and wouldn't work for us! I have the stronger personality out of the two of us, to be honest!!
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I'm definitely the quieter of the two of us, but I think we are submissive to each other. We look out for each other, decisions are made together. I handle most of the bills and the inside chores, he tackles most of the outside chores, but both of us help the other however we can.
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Nope, this would never fly with me. We are total equals in our relationship, and I think that's one thing that makes it work so well (nine years and counting
) I'm very headstrong and just don't do well with even a feeling that someone is telling me what to do. I need to know that I have an equally dominant position in our relationship. The "submissive" thing is just not for us.ETA: One of the things I love about my husband is his gentle personality and the fact that he doesn't need to feel like the traditional male "king of the house." He's perfectly fine taking control sometimes, but he's equally secure letting me take the reins others.
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@Cole: Yes, exactly this! It's not not that he tells me what to do and orders me around. I just put him first. We discuss big purchases and changes, and we're a partnership, but we fall into traditional roles quite well.
Also, I don't nag and treat him like another child. I keep my mothering for DS separate from DH. I treat him like a grown man, and not like the wives that are portrayed on TV who show wives who treat their men like stupid children.
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For me, I can only think of the word submissive in the context of dog training. It's not appropriate (in my relationship) to think of one partner being submissive to another.
ETA: From my perspective, a lot of posters are describing respect, compromise, and division of household duties - not submission.
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My dad and his wife have this kind of relationship. They are very religious. Actually his wife seems to be a more devoted follower than my dad. I remember going to their home and seeing all these post-its around where she had written quotes from the Bible about women/the wife being submissive to the man and although it bothers me--it's what works for them! It's just weird that when I visit if she's not there to cook we don't eat at home, we eat out--my dad was a friggin chef! He KNOWS how to cook.
This word has too many negative connotations for it to work in our household. We make decisions together.
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@blackbird: Agreed, and I do think we may all be operating on some different definitions of the word here, because I think of submissive as the definition you said, like deferring to your husband 100 percent of the time, but that doesn't really seem to be the situation for most (if not all) who are saying they are submissive here.
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@MrsSCB: I agree completely. I think we've all got different working definitions.
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We're usually like this in public. If someone asks us both a question I let DH answer first. And I let him make the decisions for us while we're out and I never go against him if he makes a statement I don't agree with to someone else. Behind the scenes though, one could argue I'm the one in charge since I run our household and keep our schedule.
And like others have said, I never nag him to do things because I trust him to prioritize his time. I've found that he doesn't ever let me down as long as I take a step back and give him space. Sure, I'm the one who usually comes up with the lists of things for both of us to do since I run the household, but once I give it to him I don't micromanage and it works really well.
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@TemperanceBrennan: "From my perspective, a lot of posters are describing respect, compromise, and division of household duties - not submission." <--- Yes, I think so, too. For example, I don't think nagging or bugging someone to do something is related to dominance or submissiveness. That's just related to being respectful
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Well, I was raised with the super religious definition of submissive being that the wife always, always defers to her husband. Always. If she goes out from under his authority, she's liable to be struck down because she's no longer under the umbrella of his protection. *excuse me while I gag* Yeah, this is kind of a loaded term for me, considering there was a lot of abuse in our home and the submission crap was a big part of the power play. I do think that men with abusive personalities are drawn to these kinds of religious expressions.
This is definitely not how our marriage works. We're partners, with different strengths and weaknesses. Outsiders may say I wear the pants in the family, but I think that's what people think of all marriages where the wife has a stronger personality.
I choose respect over submission, ala the Love & Respect book.
I am a born-again, evangelical Christian, as well as a Biblical feminist. -
I didn't read the rest of the replies b/c I'm pressed for time this morning, but I really wanted to answer.....
First, let me preface by saying I think anyone can have a good marriage regardless of following God's formula for one or not. If you sow love & respect you'll get it in return & everyone can be happy go lucky. But, one cannot have that overly abundant, exceedingly blessed marriage (or anything for that matter) if they don't follow God's formula.
With that, coming from a wife that got into a wonderful spat just this morning with her DH, we do strive to follow the Eph 5 principle for our marriage and tbh, imo the task of being submissive is the easier of the list! I think that people just get caught up on that one little word & forget to look at the rest of the formula.....
I mean, me being submissive is really just giving my DH the honor & respect he needs (we all know that men need respect & women need love) and by me taking his leading for our family & our marriage I'm really saying I trust God, not DH, to take care of me. I think where we get skewed in because in all other arenas of submission we see the submissive party (lets say like in military) taking all order from their top ranking & the top ranking not giving back to the bottom. It's just this constant submit, submit, submit, without getting anything in return. That is NOT the formula God created. Rather I submit & DH gets a much heftier responsibility...
DH on the other hand gets to love me like Jesus loved the Church (I'll draw that picture in a minute), has to keep his own heart clean so that he can clearly hear God, and has the responsibility of making sure that I grow into the woman, mother, & wife that I can be... that I reach my full potential. To elaborate..... If you look at how Jesus was to the Church I see a few tasks that I know I personally would struggle with fulfilling.
1. Everywhere Jesus went he healed, freed, & taught the people... they were al.ways. bombarding him needing something. Even when you thought they couldn't get to Him there they were pulling back the roof of the house to lower their friend in.... AND in this you NEVER see Jesus be like "GAH.. can't you people just go away!.. Haven't I done ENOUGH... don't you know I was just trying to have a meal with MY friends.. aaaaahhhh".. Nope, instead He just kept on giving despite the inconvenience! WHOA... that's how DH is supposed to serve me & our family, and all I'm called to do it trust his leadership & guidance...
2. Then there is when we see Jesus humble Himself & wash the disciples feet! Clearly I think it would be easy to say that it was the disciples that should've been washing Jesus' feet, but nope.. we see HIM being the one that takes the place of a servant & washes their feet. DH should never run our home out of pride & expectation, rather he is supposed to humbly serve our home keeping it clean from bitterness & strife...
3. And then there is of course the image of Calvary, where Jesus completely sacrificed all of himself in the most painful way possible to save His bride... Yep, that's what DH is supposed to do for me TOO! In the ways that pain him the most to give up & sacrifice he's supposed to put on the table for me.
Then, there is the call that DH has to keep his heart clean so that he can clearly hear HIS leader about where we should be going & how we should be stepping! Scripture says that if DH isn't kind & loving to me that God won't hear or answer his prayers! So he has to keep pride, anger, unforgiveness, etc all at bay or he can't do what he was told to do. I know sometimes it's hard for me to keep those things out of my heart & I'd hate for the responsibility & guidance of my whole FAMILY, not just me, to be dependent on me doing so.... talk about pressure...
And then on top of all that, He's called to build me up & "wash me in the word" so that I reach my full potential & my God given destiny. And if he doesn't, he'll actually stand judgment for that for not doing what he was called to do as a husband!
So yea... I know that it's easy to get caught up on that little word submission & just what we as wives are called to do, but really when the formula is being worked like it's supposed to (which it should if you follow God's formula for who you're supposed to marry) then it's not difficult to merely trust the leadership of your husband (which should be coming from God) and give him honor & respect. I'm really just glad I don't have to try & do all the things he's called to do.
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DH and I are Believers and follow what Ephesians teaches on marriage. I think its very risky business, however, to pull scripture verses out of the Bible and examine them and their validity on their own. A lot of people focus on and get frustrated with the wife submissive verse. But directly after that verse it talks, at length, about how the husband is supposed to treat the wife. He is supposed to "lay down his life for her." Husbands are supposed to mimic Christ in the marriage, while the wife mimics the Church body. Its a mutual submission, with different roles. It says, "submit to one another." I am completely happy to be "submissive" if my husband is acting like Christ towards me and "loving me as he loves himself."
ETA: I also believe that when this kind of mutual submission that the Bible calls for gets skewed, people end up with terrible experiences. BOTH partners have to do their job for it to work. I know people who have had this experience, and its not right. That's NOT what the Bible says. That kind of experiences comes from someone taking out scripture of context and not fulfilling their role and doing their part. That is on THEM, not the Bible.
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@FarmWifeGina: sounds like we have similar experiences with biblical "submission".
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@citymouse: I love the teaching from Ephesians, and especially like the "plain English" version from The Message, which uses "understand and support" rather than "submit"... and absolultey agree, it has to be down to both partners to do their job, not just one to 'submit' to the other.
"Wives, understand and support your husbands in ways that show your support for Christ. The husband provides leadership to his wife the way Christ does to his church, not by domineering but by cherishing. So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leadership, wives should likewise submit to their husbands.
Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church – a love marked by giving, not getting. Christ’s love makes the church whole. His words evoke her beauty. Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her, dressing her in dazzling white silk, radiant with holiness. And that is how husbands ought to love their wives. They’re really doing themselves a favour – since they’re already “one” in marriage." -
My brother married a baptist and their wedding was all this "the wife will submit to the husband stuff". The ironic thing (hypocritical!!!) is that she runs the show and orders him around. But yet she thinks she is living the perfect "Christian" lifestyle. I'm not a fan.
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I'd like to also add that I wasn't always in a marriage that did both sides.... I used to be in an abusive marriage, where the husband did the exact opposite of what God lines out.
Given that, I was still most blessed when I learned how to give respect & honor when it wasn't deserved & still let him lead us. God always took care of me & my heart actually experienced alot of growth & healing in that time wherein was ae to establish healthy boundaries & not continue to accept being abused. Not long after I got out of that marriage.
So... Point is, we're still called to do our part regardless bc if I'm obedient to God then He is responsible for the outcome whereas if I'm loyal only to myself, the outcome (likely not good) is on me.
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