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http://contexts.org/articles/bathroom-battlegrounds-and-penis-panics/
This is a somewhat long, but a really, really good read. Anyone truly interested in understanding this, I urge you to take a look.
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@Truth Bombs: I agree that it would be awful to get wrong! In my experience arguments have been made that if a troublemaker boy throws on a halloween wig and demands that he is transgendered to go into a locker room to ogle at the girls changing - you have to let him to make it fair. I'm saying that argument isn't valid because transgendered children have the desire to live as their true gender all of the time. I would think it would be obvious when someone is trying to take advantage. I think one should always err on the side of inclusiveness, but I do take your point!
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: honestly, wouldn't bother me in the least. As long as no one is being creepy and staring at me or taking pics who cares. This goes for men or women, trans, gay, straight, what have you. If I'm uncomfortable, I'll just try on at home. Every Leohmanns I have ever been to also had private rooms in the back if you asked.
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@erinpye: I'll add to that this story I was reading recently: http://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms
I completely agree with you about the fact that it's already happening and people don't even know. I can say I've never once gone into a bathroom stall and wondered about the private parts of the person next to me... And as for changing rooms, I don't even like changing publicly so I basically keep my head down, change quickly and get out -- as I expect most people do. I honestly don't even think I would notice if someone else changing in the locker room had male parts. It's not as if I'm scrutinizing other people's bodies.
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@MrsSCB: I like that article too! And exactly!
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@catomd00: I don't see sexual orientation as part of this particular discussion. Any time I have heard a transgendered person speak about their experience, they have made a big point of saying that gender indentification and sexual orientation are completely unrelated issues and that they don't care to discuss that part of their story.
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I feel like whenever I see these stories they are always of transgendered girls wanting to use the girls locker room. Out of curiosity, can anyone refer me to a story of a transgendered boy wanting to use the boys locker room? I would assume (but could be TOTALLY wrong) that this is less common because a transgendered boy may be more likely to feel threatened in a boys locker room and therefore stays in the girls locker room even though it's not the gender he identifies with. I don't think anyone should be forced into a situation where they feel unsafe, ever. But, if my assumption is correct, then we are saying that transgendered kids get to pick where they want to be whether it lines up with their indentified gender or not, but that cis kids obviously don't. And we are forcing transgendered boys into trading safety for comfort, which isn't right either. Another reason why I feel like private gender neutral locker rooms are probably a better option.
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@ms.line: a shirtless teen boy showed up on my door steps for Halloween. His pecks looked much different than a teen girl's flat chest. Also, I have seen boys and men in their underwear whether briefs or boxers and it looks different than when women wear the same styles.
Without stating that someone is transgendered I am having a hard time that no one would bat their eye all of a sudden when they noticed a man was in a communal changing room designated for women.
I'm not saying transgendered people need to make me comfortable. In the article all of the key players have all the facts- the transgendered student has made the school administrators and her teammates aware that she is transgendered. Like I said before we don't walk around handing out summaries of who we are. If I saw a man in a communal dressing room my first thought would not be "it's okay he's probably transgendered" it would be "what in the world is a MAN doing in here!"
@MrsSCB: at a LA Fitness locker room I would certainly notice since people walk around/ spend time in there naked.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: All the transwomen I know wear bras, even if they don't have much breast tissue to cover. Many/most transwomen also "tuck" to avoid a budge in their underwear. Trans people aren't by definition exhibitionists - in fact, they usually try really really hard to "pass," since it's an issue of personal safety. http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Yes, but surely not everyone walks around naked. I know I don't! I basically huddle in a corner to change. And as I mentioned, I think the odds that a pre-op transgender female would want to flaunt her privates are extremely low.
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@Truth Bombs: I'm 100% for private gender neutral locker rooms. As someone who was super shy and self conscious about my body as a child/teen (ETA: and therefore can't imagine how self conscious I'd be if I weren't comfortable with the parts I was born with!) , I would have totally used these.
I think this is a "girls locker room" situation because that is what's already available to them. If a gender neutral, private locker room were available, would they be just as satisfied with that?
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@.twist.: In the case I read recently, the school's solution was to offer a private gender neutral locker room and the student felt that wasn't good enough and wanted access to the communal girls locker room.
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@.twist.: By "they" do you mean trans people? No, that's what the complaint in question was about. The student wanted to use the girls' locker room rather than a separate, private locker room. Certainly there may be trans kids that would feel more comfortable in a private room, but legally, we abolished "separate but equal" a looong time ago.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I have been in a Loehmanns dressing room with someone transgendered, and at sample sales too
In my high school - almost 20 years ago! - we actually had separate changing stalls and showers. If there was an option of private stalls, I don't see why anyone has to be uncomfortable.
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@Truth Bombs: huh. It would be interesting to ask a group of transpeople and see if that's a common trend or maybe that person was being difficult? I know I'm not in that position, so I'm certainly no expert, but as with all things in life a little compromising goes a long way.
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@.twist.: I think if you had presented as female for your entire adolescence, but your school effectively "outed" you to your classmates by forcing you to use a separate facility to change in all the time, that would be pretty shitty (and illegal).
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@ms.line: I think I was pretty clear, was "they" offensive? It wasn't meant to be and if it helps I would use "THEY" talking about any group of people. In addition, was this "separate" locker room just for this one person? Or was it completely gender neutral, anyone could use it? That's pretty equal to me on all fronts.
My highschool had private, gender neutral bathrooms and it was fantastic. I think they were used more than the gender specific bathrooms.
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I think the best solution is to have everything the same for everyone, because I think everyone has body issues at some point in their lives. I think private facilities for everyone is the best way to go.
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@.twist.: I was just trying to clarify. In the federal complaint it was a separate room, so the student in question was the only one who had to use it. I agree that offering communal, gender neutral spaces would be a good solution.
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@ms.line: Cool, well I wasn't talking about outting anyone and isolating them to their own room and I think my post is very clear, even in the first sentence.
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@.twist.: I didn't say you were? I was explaining the details of the federal complaint and the reasoning behind it, since that's what you asked in your first post...
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@Truth Bombs: There's a mix of both in this article: http://mashable.com/2015/10/31/transgender-students-equal-access/#f1T5lbjnysqC
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@lawbee11: Thanks!
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@ms.line: your school effectively "outed" you to your classmates by forcing you to use a separate facility to change in all the time
I guess I took this comment differently than you intended? My bad.
the student in question was the only one who had to use it
My original question was about a gender neutral, private locker room for anyone, not about the original complaint. Sorry for the confusion.
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I played sports and was forced to take gym class- saw naked people all the time even though I tried not to and you had to shower communally - completely naked! I hated it!
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@.twist.: No worries, I think we're on the same page!
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@ms.line: I agree with everything you've posted here.
@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: "However, anatomy is anatomy and the transgendered girl may feel like a girl, but she is in fact a boy." -- You know there is a difference between sex and gender, right? Transgender people identify as male or female (or maybe a fluid version of either), and that's how they see themselves.
"If I saw a man in a communal dressing room my first thought would not be "it's okay he's probably transgendered" it would be "what in the world is a MAN doing in here!"" -- In this case, there might be a penis (which you will likely not see, because it's not softcore porn), but you probably would think it was a transgender person ... because SHE would have on women's clothing, likely longer hair, etc.
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@littlejoy: I think I know the difference. A transgendered person identifies as the opposite sex (that's gender right?), but their anatomy is still the same sex he or she was born with (that's sex right?).
Not necessarily. There are men that have long, luscious hair and wear women's clothing. A few years ago rappers were donning skirts. Drag queens wear women's clothing and they aren't transgendered.
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We had a few pedophiles as gym teachers. Two have been charged with something with underage kids MANY years later and another I just highly suspect bc they were so inappropriate and everyone knew and were right about the other ones. I think private spaces should always be available to kids if that makes them more comfortable. And let people who are truly trans students change where they identify.
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I feel really strongly that people should be able to use the gendered bathroom they identify with!
The suicide rate for transgendered kids is just so incredibly high! I can't help but hope it will come down over time as there is more acceptance.
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I have absolutely no issues with a trans person in the locker room, bathroom, whatever that fits their gender identity. I honestly don't even understand why this would be an issue. Gender identity does not relate to sexual orientation, so what's the concern? Some poor girl might see a "male" in ther underwear, or possibly a penis? So what? I would like to see non-gendered private options offered for those who want them, including people like me who are just very shy! I hated changing in the locker room with a passion.
ETA- There is no evidence of risk associated with increased assaults when trans people are allowed to use the appropriate facilities for their gender, but there are a heartbreaking number of instances of trans people being assaulted and even killed when forced to use the wrong ones. Not to mention the suicide rates, which come NOT because being trans is an inherently "sinful lifestyle" that makes a person miserable, but because our society still thinks it's okay to treat those who are different as less valuable human beings.
Though really, can we just eliminate the unnecessary gender binary entirely? Make all facilities open to anyone with appropriate privacy, and stop worrying so much about what everyone else has in their damn pants!
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@erinpye: Good article. I hadn't even considered the underlying sexism in this "women must be protected/men are predators" attitude.
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Transgender people should be able to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with. I have no problem with that whatsoever ... even if that person is pre-op. Vaginas and penises are normal body parts and if a girl accidentally glimpses a trans girl's penis in the bathroom, yes, it might be awkward, but it shouldn't be any more awkward than glimpsing a cisgender girl's vagina (of course both of those situations would be very uncommon).
I recommend anyone who is interested in this topic and understanding more about transgenderism to read the book George by Alex Gino. It's a wonderful middle grades novel about a transgender girl born as George. Reading the book helped me better grasp what it's like to be born in the wrong body and helped me become a true trans ally. Here's a link to a NPR review of the book: http://www.npr.org/2015/08/27/434277989/-george-wants-you-to-know-she-s-really-melissa
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@erinpye: @ms.line: @Katrocap: @lawbee11: @MrsSCB: thank you for posting the other articles; I read them all. I have a case of "penis panic" from the perspective a penis doesn't belong in the girl's room. It's weird to know when you're on the wrong side of an issue, but still figuring out how to navigate wholeheartedly to the right side.
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