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I completely disagree with some of you. This is a very sensitive subject. Maybe you can't imagine needing a week's pay, but it is real for some. He was discharged and they gave negative reasons. I have a hard time believing an employee would follow all corporate procedure, bend over backward to please them to leave on good terms (instead of giving no notice and immediately starting the new job), then accept separation papers under the premise of a lying manager saying the employee agreed to leave on the early date instead of the agreed upon date in writing. I have a hard time believing anyone would be totally fine with that, but maybe some of you don't fully know/ understand the situation.
Anyway, it is a matter for our attorneys at any rate. It's possible I am oversensitive on this thread because this has been a real nightmare involving different employers and hearings for the last several months, so it is part of a larger nightmare.
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@MrsSCB: that's a good point. Seems like a catch 22 for the employee.
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Isn't the nuance here that the company and the employee agreed to the end date in writing?
So, if the employee is stating they wish to abide by that written end date, and the company wants to terminate a week earlier than written, I would think the employee has a case to pursue pay for that week unless there is misconduct / legal reason to terminate.
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@Greentea: I don't know the details of the situation but wanted to add that even if it is grossly unfair or even illegal, the cost - both financial and emotional - of having an attorney deal with this issue probably exceeds the lost week's pay. Sorry you're in this situation but I'd probably just move on.
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@ballerinabee: I don't know if that's necessarily true in all cases. It's my understanding that if it's "at-will employment," the employee can be terminated at any time for any reason. You wouldn't need to prove misconduct or anything.
I think that might differ by state, though, so maybe still worth looking into. Although I would guess that attorney's fees could end up being more than that missing week of pay, so that's probably something to consider.
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Silver lining? is there a payout of vacation time that can cover the week's worth of pay that is now gone? The details as presented seem confusing to me so I can't offer up much.
But, in my world, I see this all the time. It's not happened to me personally, but I'm not in the type of position that my employer would want to get as much information out of me (transition) before I walk out the door.
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@ballerinabee: Thank you, yes, that is exactly the point and I agree. I believe you are correct.
@Madison43: I already have several attorneys, but I understand what you are saying. Thank you!
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@MrsSCB: I believe @ballerinabee: is correct. We'll see. It varies by state statute and also depends on the appeals judge.
@MamaG: thanks for the idea! Worth looking into.
Thanks everyone! You've given a lot to think about and brought up some angles I hadn't considered. It has been a nightmare, so it is sensitive, but I'll consider and weigh everything today and attempt the best, most rational position.
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Is it a reputational thing more than anything at this point?
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If you are in an "at will" relationship with your employer, they can terminate you at anytime for any reason. There is nothing that requires them to stick to an agreed-upon end date or to pay you through such a date.
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@Greentea: I think what a lot of people are saying is that it would be worth losing a week's pay vs paying an attorney and possibly losing a good reference.
Is this your DH? I thought you posted a few weeks ago he was fired? How is it now that he gave two weeks notice?
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My husband's company will call security and walk you out the door if there is any hint that you're going to a competitor. But in reality that just means people keep their mouths shut about why they're leaving. It's common in that industry.
My company is completely different and people usually give a lot of notice and have very long transition periods.
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I worked in a position once where I dealt with sensitive information. I gave two weeks notice when I wanted to quit, they accepted but then they escorted me out at the end of the day. I wasn't surprised, given the industry i was in. I can't completely remember but I think I was only paid for when I worked. Can the employee talk to his new employer and say he's available earlier than he thought? They might even let him come in to train or shadow and start paying right away.
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@Greentea: No advice... his employer seems weird. *big hugs*
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@Greentea: Just one point of clarification I haven't seen here. Is this a contractor position or a full time position? Since there is an "end date" I'm assuming its a contracted position in which case, even with an "end date" there are usually plenty of clauses in the contract that would allow the employer to terminate the contract.
Also, just curious not that it really matters at this point, if the new start date was AFTER the agreed upon end date, why even bother to put in the two weeks notice? Didn't the employer know the employee was leaving anyways?
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@Mrs.KMM: That's not the issue. The issue is an argument with the employer claiming they want him to sign separation papers saying he quit, when he was rudely discharged prior to the agreed date. That would be a lie. It isn't about whether it is at will, I understand that.
@looch: I think you kind of understand. It is part about not bending over and taking it, so to say, and he hasn't been there long enough to have a real reference from them anyway. I have a hard time believing anyone would sign papers for mutual separation when that is not accurate, was not agreed, and the employee was excellent and then insulted and told to leave randomly when the manager had a bad day. This isn't a huuuge deal, but is very stressful and I was really wondering how this works regard to UE. Only time will tell. We have an attorney and I think it just for the employee to claim if he wasn't allowed to finish the week, but we'll see what a judge says.
@IRunForFun: Yes, hard to imagine, but this is for yet a different employer. He did everything to leave favorably and then was insulted and discharged prior to the agreed upon date. The post prior was about another nightmare situation. It has been rough! I understand about the attorney fees, but already have an attorney I do work for that is aiding in these recent employment dramas. In regard to my prior post- there was no evidence, as we thought, and we are awaiting the judge's decision on appeal for that situation.
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@Greentea: Oh no.. I am so sorry about what's going on since I've been following loosely what your DH went through before!
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@T.H.O.U.: the employer adamantly thanked the employee for giving 2 weeks. That is what the employer wanted and preferred. The employee followed every policy and all was well. Then randomly discharged prior to the agreed date. The employee gave 2 weeks to leave on good terms, it was for the employer, not the employee! It is just bad practice on the employer's part. It was FT, at will, that's not the issue- it has become an argument of separation.
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@snowjewelz: omg, thank you!!!!! He feels the hearing went favorably for that, and our attorney was pleased, so we are hoping for a good outcome, the judge is still deciding. It has been so rough!
@IRunForFun: So back to the previous situation, he started working asap- he constantly needs to be. It has been a whirlwind nightmare, that's for sure! I have considered studying for the lsat because of all the work I've had to do on his cases
@Raindrop: totally weird! Thank you
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@Greentea:
Really hoping this string of bad luck will come to an end!
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@Greentea: Yes, that's exactly it. I don't know what the right answer is, but I know I wouldn't just sit back and let it happen to me regardless of the cost involved. Sometimes it is the principle.
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@Greentea: So question...did he give notice in writing? Wouldnt that clear most of this up? I have only ever given notice in writing so it was clear what my intent was...
I could see several reasons to agree to sign the separation agreement (receiving severence/bonus/payout/etc). But it doesnt sound like they apply here. If the employee has not been their long enough to worry about the gap on his resume and lack of reference then I think its fine to pursue legal options on the lost week of pay - especially if there is an attorney who will take it on contingency.
All I know is DH - who is an attorney but not by any means a legal expert on employee relations - has advised two close friends who approached him about wrongful termination that in our state it is very difficult to be successful...and that it may not be worth the effort/ and time/money invested.
I hope it works out for you...some people in management positions just amaze me...its unreal how they act!
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone be released like that after giving notice, but I was under the impression whenever you do give notice be prepared for the company to release you.
I think that's why my industry struggles with giving more than 2 weeks notice. I personally think 2 weeks notice is too short so to be nice I would lean towards giving a month notice. I do understand that being nice is not always what's best.
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@Greentea: Would this discrepancy affect his future career in any way? It seems like this is an unpleasant company to work for, so I would lean toward letting it go just to be done with these people, even though he did the right thing, unless signing those papers could have some negative implications for future employment.
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@snowjewelz: thank you so much sweetheart! I hope so too!
@looch: yes, exactly. When an HR person calls that night and says, "oh, I heard you quit (or mutually separated) today, come in and sign the papers," you are not going to say, "oh yes, that's totally what happened," when that's not the case because you were told to leave. She said she was told the employee agreed to quit yesterday, and that's not true.
@Mrs D: yes, the notice was in writing. Thanks for the ideas. I agree, a legal battle is a headache, but he'll probably file for ue for the week because they wouldn't allow him to finish out his intended and agreed upon period of work.
@bluestriped bee: it is tough to be in a position where you do nothing but the right thing, and still get stomped on! The employee was respectful, they haven't returned the same courtesy. You'd think the company would want notice, and they said they did, but then it isn't very encouraging for them not to honor the agreement, then try to brainwash the employee into saying they chose to leave. It discourages people from giving notice if they have to deal with immature repercussions.
@Pancakes: I think they want him to sign so that he can't claim ue for the week. I know what you mean about just being done with it!
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@Greentea: So you said that you were really wondering how this affect UE. I gather that means unemployment wages? If he gave his notice, wouldn't he have been ineligible for unemployment anyways?
IDK, even for the principle of the thing, it seems like a LOT to go through for a week's wages.
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I think I'm still confused by the situation. This is a totally different company than the one he was fired from recently?
So, he started a new job, and then while working that job found a different/better job, and gave his 2 weeks notice in writing, which the employer accepted and agreed upon an end date? But then that night an HR person called and said he'd quit and needed to sign a separation agreement stating he wouldn't be work or be paid out those 2 weeks? Or did HR say he was fired and that's why he needs to sign the papers and won't get paid?
It seems like a confusing situation. Is there a possibility that they were unhappy with him and asked him to quit or be fired? Or perhaps they had expected a long term commitment and were upset when he quit so soon after starting? Not that that would make what they're doing right, just trying to understand.
What is the industry?
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@IRunForFun: agreed with the confusion.
What I think happened:
Fired from Job 1 under false accusations.
Took Job 2, but then received offer from Job 3. Turned in notice to Job 2 -- offered to work two weeks notice. Manager at Job 2 got in bad mood and told him not to come back. HR called and said you've been terminated with cause (meaning he can't get unemployment).
The main confusion I have is that if you quit a job you don't get unemployment anyways, so I don't understand where the lawyers factors into the equation.
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I can understand how tough it would be to lose one week's worth of pay. But I can't imagine hiring lawyers to do anything about it. Even if you were able to find lawyers to take the matter on contingency, they would take half of what is collected and the trouble endured from the loss of that one week's pay would be long gone by the time you were awarded anything from a settlement or the courts. I wish you the best of luck in this situation!!!
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@IRunForFun: @LBee: he was called by hr who told him, "oh, I heard you quit today, come sign papers." That just isn't the case. Manager in bad mood told him to leave, it is a week prior to agreed end date.
@IRunForFun: everything seemed copacetic, he was even welcomed back and thanked for giving notice, then manager had bad day a week later and told him he was done.
It comes down to statutes and interpretation by a judge- if someone gives notice of two weeks, then is discharged prior, can that employee claim ue? I believe yes, because the employer was the moving party. Anyway, it isn't up to any of us what the answer is, I was curious whether anyone had ever been in a similar situation. And again, I have attorneys, so that isn't a stipulation.
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It is very common to give two weeks' notice and then not be allowed/required to work the two weeks. That doesn't at all change the fact that the employee is quitting in terms of unemployment eligibility.
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@Greentea: Any chance that what the HR meant was that *they* heard he quit today and so he needs to stop by and complete the separation paperwork?
If he hasn’t worked there very long, you might want to make sure he has worked the minimum hours to even claim UE from that employer before having your attorney work on anything (and charge you for their time).
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I still don't understand the point of going through all this if he had another job lined up. And some states won't even start paying unemployment until you've been out of work for the waiting period of a week or two. I feel like we're still missing something about this story.
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@Greentea: I agree it's less about the pay even though I wouldn't be happy about losing any money. I wouldn't want it documented that I was fired when that isn't what happened!
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Every state is different with employment and labor laws so it's really hard to say what's right and wrong - plus as you said you have lawyers to figure this out. To my knowledge it's difficult for the employee to win in these situations.
My husband works in a sales environment and it's common knowledge that there is no 2 weeks. The day you give notice is your last day.
I don't see how this situation is about the money since the employee had a new job lined up and have had several lawyers at this point. If it is not about the money, then I don't quite understand as the employee is not obligated to sign separation paperwork saying he quit. While I think it's an unfair situation, it seems to be that the employee comes out looking the worst.
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@catomd00: it's the opposite. The OP WANTS it documented that he was fired (since the company isn't keeping him for a full two weeks after he resigned). But I'm with you, I wouldn't want it either.
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@Truth Bombs: ohhh totally misread that. I mean I guess if he wants to try and collect unemployment that makes sense? But yeah I wouldn't want that on my employment record, personally! Tricky situation it seems.
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