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@Cherrybee: see, DD would NEVER go to sleep at 7. We hug her to sleep and she would never sleep before 8pm.
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What is her temperament like during the day? Is the nighttime the only time she screams? How does she interact with other kids, and with you guys? Is she especially verbal?
ALSO: It sounds like CIO just doesn't work for her, and it's not really working for you guys either. Honestly (and this might be terrible advice), I would do whatever brings about the most peace and quiet for you guys. Whether that means giving her milk, rocking her to sleep, letting her watch cartoons before bed, putting her down in your room, etc., I would do it!
I have two girls who are also pretty difficult when it comes to sleep (DD1 didn't STTN for the first time until she was 22 months old) and both take lots of love/coaxing/cuddling in order to get them down.
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If you cuddle/rock/whatever her to sleep, she still doesn't sleep through, correct? Because I would love if I could sit with my little guy and he'd peacefully fall asleep and then stay asleep until morning and get all the sleep he needed. But if I'm anywhere NEAR his room when he goes down, he's up multiple times a night and miserable in the morning. So while I understand the advice from people to give more comfort at night, it absolutely would not work for my kid/family. And, quite frankly, when we're not back-sliding, and we stick to our routine, he is happier/less fussy than when we do try to "help" him sleep. It's so individual, and you know your kid best!
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I agree that CIO is something I was able to do as an infant (did it successfully around 9 mo and got DS sleeping through the night)... But we couldn't do it again as a toddler. Not when he screams "Mama" over and over hysterical. It just didn't feel the same.
DS is 22 months, still in a crib. He needs me to be there in the room for him to fall asleep. He has historically low sleep needs and nowadays is falling asleep ~8:30-8:45pm. Waking around 6-6:30am. 1.5-2.5 hr nap.
Maybe 7 is just way too early?? No way DS would go to sleep then.
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I can't do CIO so please take this with a grain of salt.
What does her whole routine look like? Start of the day to bed time. When N (who will be three this fall) is having a hard time with bed time; we talk about what were are doing tomorrow and why it is important to go to sleep. I also bought a new white noise machine that has stars and moons light. He loves looking at the stars and moons on his ceiling, plus the noise really helps him. Our whole routine looks like this:
8am: Up for the day.
8:15-9am: Breakfast and signing time
9am-11am: playtime/ errands
11:30: Snack or lunch time depending on breakfast
12:00-2:30: Nap time
2:30-3:00- Snack or lunch
3:00-6:30: play time
6:30-7:45: Dinner
7:45-8: Bath time and Jammies
8:00-10:00: Night night movie
10:00pm: Bed time. -
I don't know if you have anything similar in the UK but in Australia there are 2 "sleep schools" where you can have a day consult, night consult, or anywhere from a 1 to 5 night residential stay. You have to be referred by a GP (it's covered by Medicare with a referral) but in describing your situation you would DEFINITELY qualify. You can look up their websites to get some good tips, the names are tresillian and karitane. Maybe see if anything like that is available in your neck of the woods. To me, it sounds like a big intervention is required for all your sakes. So so sorry you are dealing with this. Crossing fingers she's down soon x
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My advice is the same as @looch's. My LO could scream for HOURS as a toddler when it was time for her to sleep by herself. After awhile, it just wasn't worth it to me anymore- I couldn't take the tears, the screaming, the stress. I gave in and let her sleep in our bed and lay down with her every night. And honestly? It's the best part of my day. Hearing her talk about her day while she drifts off to sleep. Much less stress, happier for both of us. She STTN too in our bed and I'm much more rested.
But Everyone is going to have a different opinion on this- you just need to listen to yourself. What do YOU think she needs? Why do you think she is fighting bedtime do badly? I'm so sorry you are having such a rough time, I hope something works ASAP for you!
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@Rainbow Sprinkles: I think the same.
My DD is E's age and still doesn't always SSTN. She would never go to sleep on her own. We now all play/relax in her room at night - I had embrace my non-solo-bedtime kid. Sometimes DH hugs her to sleep. And I still nurse her sometimes. Horrible time? I would even pass her my phone to watch hooplakidz if I had to. Sometimes she falls asleep reading! @Cherrybee, DD isn't big on eating either- did you know sometimes to get her to eat I have to sit her on the couch and put food in her mouth? She thinks it is fun and tasty that way. It takes like an hour! I had to embrace the "whatever works" mentality.
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@Cherrybee: Is she sleeping? I hope so!
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I just want to say don't feel badly if you don't feel like laying down with your daughter or cuddling her for hours to get her to fall asleep is a viable option for your family. From what I know of your situation you work all day with a really long commute on top of it. There is nothing wrong with you needing some down time to yourself in the evenings that doesn't involve catering to LO's every want. And as a WOHM, I get that just letting your kid stay up later isn't an option because they need to get up and out of the house by a certain time in the morning so you have less flexibility. It will probably be a rough go for a little while, but do what needs to be done to get to a routine that works for YOUR life.
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@Cherrybee: have you tried the super nanny method? I'm sure you can find it online, but basically you sit in her room until she falls asleep. If she gets out of bed, you out her back in and just say it's time to sleep now. Gradually, you move further and further away from the bed as she stays in it. Seems like a middle ground between CIO (which isn't working) and not having to lie there for hours with her hopefully. Personally, I think bringing her out of her room when she gets up isn't the best option...
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Thanks for all your help, everyone. Finally, after two hours of screaming, I gave up and went in there. She was so sad. She flopped against my chest and immediately calmed down. After a long cuddle and a few gulps of milk, I was able to lie her down and then lie down next to her (on the floor next to her floor bed, with my head on the mattress beside her). She lay there calmly but didn't go to sleep. After about 15 minutes, I got up and left her and she continued to lie there - and fell asleep 10 minutes later. She woke twice in the night and we did our usual cuddle/milk routine.
I just don't know what to do for the best. I'm so desperate for her to sleep but CIO just doesn't seem to work for us. I can honestly say I gave it my best shot last night but 2 hours of hysterical crying - it's just not okay, is it?
I'm going to go back and answer some of the questions you all asked and hopefully someone will have some kind of idea for me!
@Rainbow Sprinkles: She's a super happy little girl during the day - singing and dancing constantly - but only when she's getting your full attention (and when she's not tired. She's crabby when she's tired. She's crabby a lot!). She doesn't like to play independently for long; she's okay as long as she can give you a running commentary on what she's doing and you show interest. She gets bored easily. She is very adventurous with no sense of danger and is on the go constantly. She adores other children and shares well. She is very verbal - when we pick her up from daycare they always comment that she has talked non-stop all day and that her speech is very advanced.
@Jess1483: Correct! Even as a newborn, she couldn't go to sleep in your arms - she has never, ever fallen asleep on me as a toddler, or even in her pushchair. Otherwise, I'd gladly cuddle her until she fell asleep.
@SproutBee: She's always so tired by 6pm though because she wont nap. You can tell she's tired, because she trips over constantly, bumps into things and cries at the drop of a hat. I've even thought that, maybe, 7pm is too late! But then as soon as you get upstairs, she starts tearing around the house, leaping onto her bed, wont lie down, demanding Peppa Pig.
@MrsRcCar: It's hard to detail the whole routine because she goes to her grandparents Mon-Weds and daycare Thurs-Fri. But the bits I can detail, look like this:
6.15am ish: Up. Whines immediately for our attention.
6.15-7ish: Drink milk and watch cartoons in our bed while we get ready for work. Happy.
7.30: Get in the car to Grandparents/daycare. Whines all the way there because she is strapped in.
8am - 5.30pm: Lots of playing. Lots of outdoor play. Includes one nap approx 1 hour.
5.30pm: I pick her up and take her home.
6pm: Plays with her toys in the lounge. Watches some kids TV (The Bedtime Hours = the same shows). Drinks milk.
6.30pm: Bath. Loves her baths!
7pm: PJs, into bed, read books together. -
I can't comment on getting her to sleep because we did CIO when my son came home and it worked wonderfully, but I do agree with others that I would cut the milk in the middle of the night. My LO used to drink MOTN milk at that age and he woke up like clockwork because he was getting a reward for it! We diluted that until it was water, and did the same with his bedtime drink. We killed the bedtime drink due to worries about his teeth. Now it's water and he really doesn't even want it. He is great at getting to sleep but then also STTN because there's no more reward for waking up!
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You definitely have to cut the night time milk. It works, but she doesn't need it. She wakes up because she knows she'll get it, and you can't keep waking up multiple times a night for something that's just not necessary.
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I'm sorry you guys are having so much trouble with sleep
. I'm a big believer in doing what you gotta do to survive, but also in the fact that kids learn what you teach them. I'm afraid your daughter may have learned that if she screams long enough you come rescue her. I think @catomd00: had a really good idea for you guys. And personally, I'd stop the MOTN stuff asap. I'd give her water for a few days and then nothing and see if she stops. If not, I'd just ignore her. She doesn't need to be fed then at this age, but she knows if she cries you'll come comfort her and give her milk.
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Totally agree with @Truth Bombs: on cutting the night time milk!
There were some great tips about watering down the milk to phase in the change... we did something similar, and it worked great.
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@Cherrybee: do you talk about each transition? Give her reminders about what is happening next? Sort of a running commentary on what is happening and happening next? Personal I would push back bed time an hour and see if it makes a difference. Perhaps 7 is just too early for her after an exciting day and she just wants to tell you all about everything.
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@ScarletBegonia: No there's nothing on the NHS. You can book sleep consultations with private consultants - it's £280 for one home visit and a weeks worth of emails. I'd be willing to try it but DH isn't on board.
@NovBaby1112: I honestly don't know.
when I dig deep, I think it's because she misses me. But I can't help having to work. I have tried having her in our bed when she wakes in the night but she wont settle in there. Plus, I can't sleep if she's in the bed... not to mention DH's horrific snoring!@Truth Bombs: Thank you for saying that. I honestly feel like I just don't have anything left to give. from 6.15am until she goes to bed I am go go go go go - dealing with her, commuting in rush hour traffic, managing a challenging team, commuting back, dealing with her again. By the time I've read her a couple of stories, I've been on the go for 13 hours with no break. I just want her to bloody sleep.
@Greentea: *waves to comrade across the trenches*
@catomd00: Her room is tiny! I can't move further and further away from her!
But yes, I've bought all of Jo Frost's books (I love Super Nanny). The lying her down bit isn't working for us because she pings back up immediately, before you've even let go of her. If you lie her back down again immediately, she screams and fights. It becomes me pinning her down aggressively while she screams and kicks. Not conducive to sleep.
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@MrsRcCar: I'm not sure that we do talk about the transitions, to be honest. I will Google it and see what it might look like.
@ShootingStar: Well I thought that - which was why I was committed to simply ignoring the screaming last night. I was so scared when I went in that I was totally reinforcing the message. But it can't be right to let a child scream for 2 hours. It can't be.
@Truth Bombs: @mrbee: But it's the only thing that works.
I'm so tired. If I didn't have to be up and driving 25 miles on the motorway to work the next day I would be more up for trying new things. I tried replacing it with water a few weeks back but she refused it and then cried and cried until she got milk. I guess I could try watering it down and see what happens.
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@Cherrybee: maybe you need to call super nanny!
you poor thing! This sounds truly awful.
I don't think you made any mistake going in after 2 hours - that's a very long time. You have a strong willed child, which right now seems horrible but she will do great things because of it later on!Have you tried cutting out screen time 2 hours before bed? Now that my dd is aittle older (16 months) I have found she is better able to unwind when We don't have any electronics around at night.
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@Cherrybee: Yah I'm all for expediency too!! Definitely been there with the nightly wakeups. At some point though, we had to make the transition so the kids would STTN.
Maybe it'd be better to wait until Friday night to try changes to the sleep routine? One thing we did was have the parent with less sympathy do the sleep training (that was me). It made it easier for everyone involved!
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@catomd00: I used to wonder why people signed up to go on her show and admit to the whole country that they're a crap parent - but I'm actually prepared to air my dirty laundry all over prime time TV now!!
@mrbee: Unfortunately, the parent with the least sympathy is DH - and he's also the parent with the stress issues. He punched a door (downstairs, away from her) the other night because she wouldn't sleep. Last night, he was getting more and more worked up as the time went on - worrying about his reaction is harder than dealing with her to be honest.
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@Cherrybee: If he's making things harder, then next time maybe he should leave the house!!
We found it really helpful to agree beforehand to how we would handle things. Then when the crying started and our stress skyrocketed, we already had a plan!
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@Cherrybee: how do your inlaws get her to nap during the day? I wonder if behaviour that they do during the day is affecting the situation at night.
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@Cherrybee: I know it's really tough letting them cry :(. We did CIO for night time, but I could never stand to do it for naps, so for months DH and I each held him for one nap.
But now we're at an age (19 months) where we're realizing our being there while he falls asleep is hurting more than helping. We used to be able to rock him and sing to him and get him pretty close to sleep and just put him down and be fine. But now if DH or I are there, we're just too distracting. So my goal at bedtime now is to get him calm and tired - lights are dim, we read a couple books then I turn off the light and snuggle with him while we rock and sing for a bit and then I put him in the crib.
I think your daughter both needs you to help her sleep, but is also stimulated by you being there. I'm not a sleep expert by any means, but what I would do is come up with a solid strategy and stick to it. Maybe you can sit with her for 15 minutes or so, get her to lie down, play some quiet music, rub her back or hold her hand (things DS loves) until she falls asleep. If you can find a way to get her calm and asleep, then I'd start shortening the time there and leaving before she's fully asleep.
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Well, I agree that CIO isn't for you. Partly because you can't get through it (which is totally understandable), and partly because you've now taught her to scream for two hours and you will come in.
So, if cio is no longer an option, I'd try a TON of daytime talking. Talking at bedtime isn't going to do the trick. So, for the next week or so, talk about how bedtime is going to start to look different. I'd even have Dd help you make a book (with pictures--of her or ones you draw) about what does and doesn't happen at bedtime. Whatever you choose to include, those things have to be true (so if you say no milk, then no caving). Include in the book your reward system for outcome (even put the sticker chart or puzzle picture or whatever in there). Talk about it multiple times a day. And then when it's the day you've decided on, do things exactly as you've said you will.I do think milk and bedtime shows have to go if she is going to sttn, but I think you can get improvement while leaving them in. But I'd encourage you to bite the bullet and get rid of them as others have suggested.
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Regarding transitions: For us it looks something like this. You have x minutes left to play (or after this show is over the tv is off) and then we are going upstairs. We will use the bathroom, brush teeth, put on PJ's and read a book. And we keep telling her as we go through the process. Okay we finished X now we have Y and Z left. At that age (and still upon request at nearly 4!) we ended the night with hugs and kisses and she was held/rocked while one of us sang Rock a bye baby. Then into bed she goes. When I do bedtime, I always end it with the same conversation. I love you, good night, sweet dreams, see you in the morning.
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I just want to give you a hug.
This situation sounds so rough for everyone involved. I hope you figure out something that works soon.
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This situation sounds awful. I hope you find something that works soon. There has been a lot of great advice.
I had the same thought as @ShootingStar: "I'm a big believer in doing what you gotta do to survive, but also in the fact that kids learn what you teach them. I'm afraid your daughter may have learned that if she screams long enough you come rescue her."
We sleep trained LO1 and LO2 and it was so hard (and what worked for LO1 did not work for LO2). But, I kept telling myself that we are teaching them an important life skill. Falling asleep and staying asleep are very important to being a well rested, happy person.
You mentioned DH isn't onboard with a sleep coach. Why does he object? LO's sleep is really impacting your quality of life (you aren't STTN, its causing you stress, you aren't able to relax, etc). How bad does it have to get before he agrees that you need help to get LO's sleep on track?
A few things that help our LOs sleep (around that age):
- physically exhausting her - lots of running, jumping, climbing
- talking a lot about transitions before they happened (if we didn't talk about transitions, she would rebel against what she should be doing and throw a tantrum).
- having a consistent bedtime routine (and talking about each step of the routine along the way)We also have found our kids act worse when they have screen time and sugar. So those are very rare and special treats.
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@looch: She asks to "take bun bun and go sleep" - and then she walks up to her bed, gets in and snuggles down. Then they leave her to fall asleep on her own. sometimes, they have to ask her "are you tired? Do you want to go to sleep?" and then she says "Yes" and trots off to her bed. Honestly, Grandad can get her to do anything for him. She takes medicine off a spoon for GanGan!! Before he retired, he was a child behaviour specialist, would you believe - but even he can't work out why she wont sleep or eat or take medicine for us!
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@Cherrybee: Sounds like Granddad needs to spend a few days at your house to help establish a new home routine. You don't need to pay a sleep consultant, you have one in your family for free
eta: Actually you might want Granddad to do some of the daytime talking about how Mama is going to do X & Y at home for bedtime. SOmeone above suggested lots of daytime talk about what going to bed looks like. Since she clearly has a profound respect and compliance for Granddad, maybe him talking it up will help.
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@Bluebonnet: He isn't on board with anything like that. He thinks they're just charlatans who are out to get your money. He tells me I've been talking to too many Americans online and getting silly ideas.
I'm loving this transitions thing! I'm going to make a bedtime book with all the steps in!
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@Cherrybee: hrm, figures! That is EXACTLY how my son is with both my parents and my inlaws. Sometimes they really ask me how it could be that we are talking about the same child with his difference in behaviour.
I would try two things:
1. I would try to see if you can have her stay overnight at your inlaws house and see what she does there for night time sleep and then try to implement that at your house.2. If that doesn't work, I would ask your FIL to come over to your house and implement the same thing for a night.
What you are currently doing isnt' working, it seems. Some kids are just not receptive to CIO and there is no shame in admitting it doesn't work for your child. We had a terrible regression around the 2 year mark and I have to say, in hindsight, it was a low moment for all of us.
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We never did a routine chart, but I know it's been blogged about. That might help as a visual of the steps in the process. Let her mark off or place a sticker as she does each step in the process. It's another option to the book, or maybe in conjunction with the book.
http://www.hellobee.com/2012/08/06/printable-toddler-routine-chart/
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@MamaG: haha exactly!
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@Cherrybee: I don't have much advice, except that transitions work great for us. During and after each step we talk about the next thing to do...I'll usually ask him "what are we going to do after x?" and he'll tell me, and then do it. I also cut out screen time at least an hour before bed...he doesn't pay all that much attention to it but I'd rather avoid the extra stimulation.
Mostly just wanted to send a lot of love your way. I get stressed the nights he's avoiding bed, I can't imagine how stressed you are
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@lovehoneybee: Thank you. It's so nice to read comments saying that this sounds really stressful. This is our life - and I hate it. You get to the point where you start thinking that maybe we just weren't meant to be parents because everybody else seems to like their family lives and it's just us who are miserable. It's destroying our relationship with her because we just don't have any patience for her at the weekends because we are exhausted and harassed and need a bloody break.
@looch: I'm glad you said " Some kids are just not receptive to CIO and there is no shame in admitting it doesn't work for your child". Some of the (well meaning and, in parts, very helpful) comments above, saying that I've taught her to scream for 2 hours by going in there last night, have just made me feel awful. I don't know how to unteach her - because she wont calm down. Two hours is too long to scream for, surely?
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Oh I really feel for you...sleep deprivation is the worst...this is not good for you, for E or your relationship with your husband. I know it really, really sucks but I do agree with PP about cutting out the milk. I totally understand about wanting to do the easiest thing because you need sleep. I'm embarrassed to admit this but for about 4 months after I weaned E off the boob he still woke in the night and we used to let him watch videos of puppies or katy perry filmclips on our phones because he would happily watch that for 5 minutes and the go back to sleep. I was pregnant and exhausted and DH worked long shift hours so we did it for survival. Looking back now I see how ridiculous it was....and it eventually backfired and he wanted to watch it longer and longer (I wont admit to myself how long I would sot there and let him watch) and woke more often. We knew with #2 coming I couldn't be in 2 places at once with them both waking. We went cold turkey....we now go in ONCE if he is upset, give a cuddle and offer water. Never longer than a few minutes or he thinks we will stay. Then we let him cry...really it is no different to a tantrum in the daytime. He has cried for over an hour before a few times so 2 hours must have been agonizing.
It took him a few weeks and then he started sleeping through the night or if he did wake we went in quick cuddle and left and he happily went back to sleep. But now he STTN 95% of the time.
I don't really have an answers other than..make a decision and stick to it....that is the most important thing...toddlers are smart..they know how to play you. A week or so of terrible nights will be worth it in the end. If you have any leave coming up or long weekends plan to start it then.Big hugs... sorry I'm not much help but I hope my katy perry/puppy confession made you laugh.
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@Cherrybee: oh, I'm so sorry if that comment made you feel bad. It truly wasn't my intent. I did the same thing when my guy was little and it made cio harder. I'm typing while nursing, so using fewer word than I would otherwise. It definitely sounds stressful and you are doing awesome.
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@Cherrybee: this might be redundant and maybe unhelpful, but have you tried a Ferber-type thing? I say we did CIO but we did it in a Ferber way I suppose. So we did the check every 5 mins, then 10, etc. I've advised a couple adoptive parents on this and it helped them too. We just walked in and patted his back or tummy, no picking up, cuddling, milk etc.
Eta: I agree with others to involve the grandparents.
. I'm a big believer in doing what you gotta do to survive, but also in the fact that kids learn what you teach them. I'm afraid your daughter may have learned that if she screams long enough you come rescue her. 
But yes, I've bought all of Jo Frost's books (I love Super Nanny). The lying her down bit isn't working for us because she pings back up immediately, before you've even let go of her. If you lie her back down again immediately, she screams and fights. It becomes me pinning her down aggressively while she screams and kicks. Not conducive to sleep.
I'm so tired. 
you poor thing! This sounds truly awful.
This situation sounds so rough for everyone involved. I hope you figure out something that works soon.
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