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Measles Outbreak in SoCal (related to Disneyland)

  1. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @blackbird: And some children have pretty "fucked up" systems that can't handle it. And for that, I am grateful the CDC doesn't require all children get vaccines. My child can handle it, and I see that as my "obligation" to help protect other babes.

  2. MrsMccarthy

    honeydew / 7295 posts

    I am all for efforts to rid vaccines as well foods we eat and products we use of toxins in any way possible. I think there is an effort being made there but not protecting your child and other children and adults from disease or illness in order to protect them from small amounts of chemicals that you probably get more of from your deodorant, dinner or dish soap is not a smart choice. I don't care how smart you are. Unless you child is genuinely one of the few who cannot be vaccinated there is no sound reason. I don't think these are stupid people but I think that they are incredibly misguided.

  3. blackbird

    wonderful grape / 20453 posts

    @littlejoy: Precisely! Those are the children I worry the most for Their bodies are already so taxed and their resources spread thin!

  4. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @MrsSCB: For us, I want to limit as many environmental toxins as possible. This means that I do choose organic if possible, and local if possible. I live in an area where it's easy to support organic farmers, and I feel lucky. Avoiding pesticides is extremely important to me, as we won't know the affects of all of these chemicals for years and years. I have some major hormone/endocrine issues that I don't want my LO to have, and so I do a bit extra to do what I can to keep crap from her system. This goes into things like plastic, disposable diapers, and even picking her car seat. I'm not crazy ... Sometimes I'm pretty lazy, ha, but it's my choice to make, and "fear" isn't really a part of it. It's just the way we choose to live.

  5. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @blackbird: Do it for the babies!!!!!

  6. MrsSCB

    pomelo / 5257 posts

    @littlejoy: I get that, but the thing that confuses me is that "organic" doesn't mean "no pesticides." It just means using pesticides that aren't synthetic, which isn't inherently better. Scientists are also working on genetically modifying crops to require fewer pesticides, which would obviously be better for the environment. But then they'd be GMO, so...I just don't think it's as cut and dry as "avoid organic and GMO and you're helping the environment." Sorry, this is kind of a tangent from the vaccine topic, although I do think there are a lot of interesting similarities.

  7. Ms.Badger

    clementine / 918 posts

    @littlejoy: I work to diagnose genetic disease in the most complex cases doctors have, when there are no clear syndromes or causes to their disease and not once has a symptom been "unable to metabolize aluminum" or even aluminum toxicity. I think, if a child is born with a condition that does not allow the excreation of aluminum, that it is very, very rare

  8. Ms.Badger

    clementine / 918 posts

    @MrsMccarthy: I just wanted to say that what you said near the bottom of the last page is exactly how I feel.

  9. MenagerieMama

    pear / 1547 posts

    @littlejoy: I really appreciate how thoughtful you are with expressing your opinions! That being said, I also have some thinking points. I did like the drunk driver analogy from a PP, because I think it makes you see both sides. You said "Though, I think drunk drivers are assholes with mental problems, and I wouldn't say that about anti-vax people. " But I know at least one person - my DH's cousin - who was a wonderful person, no mental illness (at least that anyone knew or suspected), who drove drunk and died in an MVA (thank god no one else was involved). He was a good person who made a bad choice (which ended up fatal for him). I think the same can be said about anti-vaxxers.

    Also, with the Hep B at birth, I had my LO get hers, and I don't think she has any risk factors. But what if something happened to her as an infant and she needed a blood transfusion that had HBV and was one of the very few that slip through our strict screening and testing for donor blood? If something happened to her and I knew I could have prevented it, I would feel terrible. I feel like there are reasons the CDC has put out the schedule for vaccines that they have, (unlike some docs out there writing books that make a heck of a lot more money off of their delayed schedules, but that's a whole other story for another time...) and I don't find myself to be a personal exception.

    Full disclosure, I work in healthcare and encourage full vaxxing in all my patients (even the flu vaccine!) and am doing the same for myself and LO (and future LOs).

  10. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @MenagerieMama: Great points!!! I always love hearing thoughtful perspectives from other informed parents. Sorry about your experience with drink drivers. I was on the other side (losing someone because of a drunk driver, so my emotions are really heavily involved).

  11. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @Ms.Badger: Oh, for sure. I wasn't using it as an excuse. I meant it exactly how you described it. Just that medical exemptions should be used sparingly, and for those children who seriously need it.

    Our former pediatrician pointed out that studies showing how aluminum or heavy metals affect babies aren't ethical, therefore there isn't enough data to say it's completely safe. We do vaccinate, and to me, the benefit (for my child) outweighs the risks (for my child). Only time will tell, but for now, I'm confident trusting the science.

  12. Mrs Green Grass

    pomelo / 5628 posts

    @coopsmama: I'd be careful to say that you "think" that vaccines only work for a certain period of time. We read something somewhere, then quote it slightly differently the next time and it adds to all of the misinformation out there. Evidence is so important for important discussions like these.

    For example, Tdap is being studied right now because it does seem to be less effective in it's current formulation that the previous version was. The County Office of Health called me to register my son and myself when we got Pertussis last year and she told us that part of the reason they are tracking numbers is to see if it's related to the vaccine wearing off.

    From some quick research right now, just 1% of people may lose immunity after receiving 2 doses of MMR.

    Every vaccine is different.

  13. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @MrsSCB: Sure. We choose to love as cleanly as possible, and we do so by forming relationships with the people who grow our food. This also supports local farmers. I also grow some of my own food, so I know what I'm feeding my family. We don't use any pesticides or synthetic chemicals in our garden. I'm passionate about this for MY family. I don't judge anyone for feeling differently at all. We are in a place that makes it possible, and it works for us.

  14. blackbird

    wonderful grape / 20453 posts

    @littlejoy: " We choose to love as cleanly as possible"

    lol. clean love is good love. I knew what you meant. Just chuckling.

  15. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @blackbird: Lol!!! We love clean too!!!!! I always sign my emails with "cheers", but sometimes I type "cheese".

  16. coopsmama

    cantaloupe / 6059 posts

    @Mrs Green Grass: I'm sorry, but while hastily typing on my phone while watching my busy 19 month old and nursing my 6 month old I don't have time to go seek out exact statistics but I have been told that by our doctor. She didn't provide me with a source list for that statement hence the qualifier "I think." Further, I don't think her statement was based on official research - just what she sees when drawing titers. I personally know a few other ladies who have had both MMR dosages on schedule as children and who found out during pregnancy, like myself, that they are NOT immune to one of the diseases. It's shocking to me that all of us would fall in that 1% but maybe we do.

    I agree with your point that evidence is crucial in matters like these but I also think that if someone takes my word for it without doing research of their own that's as much their own error, too. As for myself, I know enough people who have had this happen to them that I'm not convinced any vaccine can confer lifelong immunity.

    I don't think that's a good reason not to vaccinate. But I do think it's a good reason to continue researching vaccines -- just like they are with the Tdap, thankfully!

    I think my experience with not experiencing immunity after being fully vaccinated on schedule as a child just illustrates to me how much experience plays into one's opinion on vaccines. Statistics fall pretty flat when it's you or your family affected -- either by the disease the vaccine is designed to protect against or by the vaccine itself.

    I met a new single mom last night along with her mom who is staying with her for the first few weeks of the new baby's life. They were discussing finding a pediatrician for the baby. They talked about how hard it is to fine one who doesn't require vaccination of their patients. I asked why they weren't vaccinating and it turned out that the grandma's (new mom's mom ...lots of moms involved in this haha! :grin:) cousin had been one of the few who would have a major vaccine reaction. He had what she described as a brain injury within a few hours following one of his shots at age 5 - I wonder if it was encephalitis or what, I didn't probe for more details. The doctors back then told their family it was a rare reaction to the shot. I guess even as an adult, he has never been "normal" neurologically since then. I could tell it's been a devastating experience for their family and I could see the fear in her eyes that it could happen to the sweet newborn in her daughter's arms. It's pretty hard to convince someone like that because even though statistically there isn't much of a chance that will happen to the new baby there is so much fear involved. And I get that. I really do.

  17. jedeve

    pomegranate / 3643 posts

    Herd immunity is one of those things that is much more complicated than we make it out to be. It's not as simple as "well if most people are vaccinated, the disease won't spread."

    For one, not every vaccine is 100% effective. They don't claim to be. But public health is very different in practice than personal health. Let's say you live in a town of 100 people. If a vaccine is 80% effective, you can't just say "well 80 people can get it and then we are fine." You still need everyone to get it, because it won't work for some people so you have to overshoot.

    For another, every disease has a different threshold. It depends on a lot of factors - the mode of transmission, how easily it infects, etc. Measels needs about a 95% vaccination rate to prevent outbreaks. Even at that rate it won't guarantee no one will ever get Measels ever, but it will prevent it from spreading to a community. Sure, the outbreak won't be as bad as pre-vaccination levels, since luckily most people choose to vaccinate. But if vax rates are lower than the HI threshold, the disease will be able to spread to unvaccinated members of the population.

    It's not a simple science. The problem is the old saying "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." People read an article or two and go "what? Vaccines don't always work? I won't bother then." Or "they wear off? Why get them in the first place?" (To protect you in the years you are most likely to be able to contract the disease and to suffer complications from it.) Or "fifty five people is not THAT many." But they need to remember these guidelines are designed by people who have thoroughly researched them and thought about all of these questions that are asked.

    I get trace amounts of metals can be scary. But vaccines themselves are a pretty natural process - it's encouraging your body to create antibodies that will prevent you from getting sick. But with skipping the whole "actually getting sick." The disease that vaccines have actually been proven to be harmful and aren't just theorized to be.

  18. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @coopsmama: Your reply was really thoughtful. Just wanted to let you know. Also, you're kind of super momming right now (2 kinds under 2!!).

  19. Kemma

    grapefruit / 4291 posts

    @coopsmama: as a sort of offshoot to your last paragraph, I would be genuinely interested to know how many of those families who choose not to vaccinate have been personally touched by a vaccine injury or reaction severer than the average. Because I can understand being very conflicted and afraid of something that has had such an effect on somebody within my circle of family and friends!

  20. FliegepilzHut

    pomegranate / 3533 posts

    @jedeve: Yes! Hear, hear!

  21. coopsmama

    cantaloupe / 6059 posts

    @littlejoy: Thanks. And haha I don't know about super momming, half the time I don't feel like I have it together but we have lots of fun and there is lots of love in our home so it's worth it!

  22. coopsmama

    cantaloupe / 6059 posts

    @Kemma: I agree. I was actually surprised by the response I got last night because I have an interest in vaccines and vaccine safety and have asked lots of non-vaxxers why they've made the choices they have and I had never before met someone in person who cited vaccine injury as a reason why. Most people that I've asked who are choosing not to vaccinate seem to do so because they are nervous about the long term effects of the current vaccine schedule and not necessarily what happens immediately following the shot. But obviously the group I've asked is rather limited in size.

  23. jedeve

    pomegranate / 3643 posts

    I think the personal example thing is important. No matter how much the data analyst in me (I have a degree in public health and worked in public policy!) wants to tell people about science and facts, they just don't convince people (which is backed up by evidence, lol).

    "Back in the day," everyone would have known someone, or had a friend of a cousin, or had seen in the paper someone who would have died or suffered a complication from a vaccine preventable illness. And that's what would have convinced them to get the vaccine. Now it's so rare (except when outbreaks return) what people perceive to be the "real" threat is the risk of exposure to "toxins" since we hear about that all the time.

    It's kind of a catch-22. If anti-vaxers talk about the very very rare vaccine complications, they are accused of fear mongering. And if pro-vaxers highlight the complications from vaccine preventable diseases they are also accused of fear mongering. But decades of science clearly comes down saying that vaccines are safe and beneficial doe the population. However, that doesn't convince everyone since people by and large are more swayed by personal experience.

  24. FliegepilzHut

    pomegranate / 3533 posts

    @jedeve: Again, you make great points!

  25. MrsSCB

    pomelo / 5257 posts

    @jedeve: I think you make a great point. Well, a lot of them, haha, but specifically I'm referring to the personal stories. Like you, I tend to be much more data-minded, so it kind of drives me crazy how many people seem to rely on, "well my uncle's brother's cousin had x happen so obviously vaccines (or sub anything here) are bad." "Anecdote is not singular for data" and all that. But I get that dramatic/scary/sad stories hold a lot of weight, and it can be hard to hear a terrible story and think, "but that only happens 1 percent of the time, so I'll probably be fine."

  26. Mrs Green Grass

    pomelo / 5628 posts

    @coopsmama: I understand. I always type fast on my phone. I'm non-immune to rubella too.

  27. toile234

    pea / 20 posts

    @littlejoy: coming out of lurkdom to say that hep b is found in saliva as well, though it's currently not thought to be spread by saliva contact. It's the disease I worry the most about as a dentist and have my titers checked religiously (hep c ties), as the transmission rate even through a glove is high. Not trying to start anything, but claiming that your child isn't at risk because they don't hang out with dirty needles isn't entirely accurate, and they are finding that there are a high number of individuals from the baby boomer era that have hep b that was never diagnosed, and they aren't just health care professionals. My most recent Osha/infection control continuing education course went over this new finding in depth.

  28. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @toile234: I'm making choices that are best for my child, and giving her the hep B vaccine at birth was not something we would consider. We had a home birth, and we were not in the risk category. After we started her vaccine schedule, we talked about when it made sense for her to get it, and we're comfortable with our decision.

    My point was that blindly following guidelines without research and choosing for YOUR family is hard for me to understand.

  29. toile234

    pea / 20 posts

    @littlejoy: again, wasn't trying to start anything, just providing some facts that a lot of people don't realize. I agree, the risk is low, and you should do what you feel is best.

  30. littlejoy

    pomegranate / 3375 posts

    @toile234: Didn't assume you were trying to start anything. We are confident in the choices we make, and I'm always open to questions or considerations. I try not to assume someone is uninformed when making decisions for their family, because we put great care into ours.

  31. erinpye

    pomegranate / 3706 posts

    @toile234: we also chose to wait and do hep B when our kids are older, but I really appreciate your perspective and info on the matter.

  32. littleblessings

    pear / 1739 posts

    A measles case was confirmed in Michigan. They are unsure whether it's related to the Disneyland outbreak or not. This mama is locking her family up in a bubble

  33. jedeve

    pomegranate / 3643 posts

    My perspective on HepB: my grandmother was a nurse and got it from a needle stick when she was pregnant with my dad. It's a very different disease is you are born with it than if you contract it later, granted, but it nearly killed him. So I was like "yes vaccinate ASAP if we are in a place with needles!" But again that's anecdote trumping evidence for you!

  34. yoursilverlining

    eggplant / 11824 posts

    @toile234: Thank you for sharing this information! Very interesting, and another bolster of why we vaccinate.

  35. Mrs Green Grass

    pomelo / 5628 posts

    @jedeve: I was actually just reading an article that anecdotes are more powerful than evidence - it's definitely can be both good and bad! Most of us don't even consider a situation like that. Thanks for sharing.

  36. artsyfartsy

    cantaloupe / 6692 posts

    I meant to post this here but accidentally posted it on the inactive thread. Sorry for the cross posting

    A baby in a daycare in Santa Monica contracted the measles. Supposedly the baby is under a year and too young for the vaccine. They've quarantined all the other babies for 21 days. Apparently another older student at the same school where the daycare is located had contracted it.
    Poor baby.

    http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/02/02/49604/santa-monica-day-care-center-closed-after-baby-get/

  37. blackbird

    wonderful grape / 20453 posts

    @Danizaur: And i'm sure all those parents have 2 weeks of vacation to stay home with their quarantined kids, no biggie. i would cut someone.

  38. LBee

    pomegranate / 3895 posts

    @blackbird: Plus they say being in quarantine is like a day at the spa. Right??

  39. blackbird

    wonderful grape / 20453 posts

    @LBee: Baby massages? Champagne? Sounds just like it.

  40. Littlebit

    nectarine / 2932 posts

    @Danizaur: WHAT THE FUCK!

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