Hellobee Boards

I got all happy thinking it was actually about tomatoes I've never heard of it before.

My tomatoes never prosper and normally attract fruit-killing caterpillars so, I probably shouldn't even look into what it is!!!

Interesting. Just from the "Square One" page there really isn't much that jumps out as not biblically accurate..... of course there could still be some things though once you get into the pages, but right off it seems like a sound method (from a Christian standpoint).

@citymouse: As adults (mature & secure in our identity in Christ) we should be in the world, but not of it BUT I think when you're dealing with children who don't have the capacity of needed maturity to decipher what is for vs. against God, exposure can be really dangerous to their ability to grow their identity in Christ as opposed to the world. That's why you would remove many of the common exposures our kids have, discussing them as they come to an age where they can understand more of the for/against God, and when they know who they are in Christ they are more armed to appropriately separate themselves spiritually while still being around them physically.

I think if you look at the church you see this as a pretty evident problem.... we have a bunch of followers that still don't know how to discern biblical vs worldly b/c their exposures came before they knew "who they were". Very confusing for the individual. This method should help eliminate alot of that confusion as our children grow into adults walking a path with God.

@citymouse: I think if you consider that in biblical times the majority of children didn't get education outside of the home (mostly only those boys who went for specific training IN the Torah) and they all seemed to grow up being active social parts of their societies you can't really say the idea is against biblical teaching... and if you consider that today the majority of outside school (where children spend the majority of their time "outside the home") is pretty against biblical teaching & is founded in worldly teaching then their statement would actually be supported in biblical counsel.

We homeschool & G is plenty socialized, more so in real life situations that would be included "in our home" as functioning day to day (running errands, going to church, etc) than a child that spent their majority of time in a secular classroom outside the home (and even private religious classrooms in many cases) so the idea that he would "have to" or "need to" be put in a place "outside the home" really isn't true. *shrugs shoulders*

I do also think that idea plays a large role in many peoples ideas about homeschooling though, even when they know that the teaching their children are getting are against biblical teaching.... they feel like their child "needs" to be there for socialization & therefore compromise sound teaching for that. That would be something that God's people would need to be able to reject to follow him.

@Beyond2: Oh.. to answer the original question, one of the teachers we following in foundational teaching on parenting is Joe McGee. I've never actually heard of this method.

@Beyond2: We have his Biblical Parenting 101 dvd set & seriously it! I've had it almost 5 years and we watch it maybe 2-3 times a year. He's hilarious and I learn something new everytime!

@yoursilverlining: sounds like robot children....

I also thought this post was about eating tomatoes *head desk*

I feel that I need to respond to this post, even though it's an older thread, because I'm very disturbed any time I see anyone using L(ynne) Elizabeth Krueger's methods or book. I know Mrs. Krueger personally, and I lived these methods. I grew up with her and her children: for 8 years I (and my family) were a part of the same fundamentalist cult that she and her family still belong to. I'd like to provide some valuable perspective on what it is like to grow up under this kind of child "training", and the kind of damage it does to children.

Mrs. Krueger's child-training methods are not original to her, or just "common sense", as she claims: they come directly from a man named Joe LaQuiere, who was the leader of our cult (up until he died this past year), which was and is an insular, legalistic group with neo-Jewish practices, such as eating no pork products, celebrating the Sabbath (Saturday), condemnation of Christmas trees for being "pagan", as well as using emotional, spiritual, and physical abuse to control its members. Having lived through it from age 6 to 14, and having family members who are still a part of this cult, gives me a unique insider's perspective, which will hopefully provide you with enough information about the damaging and evil results of this method of "child-training" that you will help in warning against it, as it has become far too popular in the ultra-conservative, homeschooling movement, which is beginning to see a whole generation of survivors speak up about the abuses they've experienced, and give warning to the dangers inherent to the homeschooling community.

I don't have my copy of the book to refer to (I threw it away long ago, after receiving it as a wedding present from my mom, who still partly adheres to these methods), so I am going to quote here from an article written by Mrs. Krueger, who, in her online presence, refers to herself by her middle name "Elizabeth" (though I know her as Lynne Krueger, and that is her first name). The website "Atriptothewoodshed.com" was the earlier incarnation of her present website, RaisingGodlyTomatoes.com (which is where the link will send you now if you try to go there). I imagine the name was changed to make the concept more "user-friendly" for those who aren't already fans of corporal punishment. In any case, this article is from "Christian Moms of Many Blessings" (http://www.cmomb.com/child-training/) and was written around the same time as this book. I quote a portion of what Mrs. Krueger writes:

"Don't be afraid of a confrontation. It is helpful to set up a confrontational situation in the case of a toliler [my note: I think this is a typo for "toddler"] who is "out of control." For example, tell him to sit on the couch next to you. When he tries to get down, give him a firm swat on the bottom and say, "No" in an `I mean business' tone. Continue this every time he tries to get down until he stops trying. If he actually makes it off the couch, tell him to climb back up himself, if he is big enough, or replace him if needed. Don't restrain him. Don't give in. Ignore his crying. You are not done until he sits there quietly for as long as you want him to without resisting. Let him fall asleep if he likes. Even after he stops resisting, don't let him down too soon. Ten or 20 minutes or even an hour is not too long. Once you have done this, continue to expect him to obey everything you tell him to do."

This particular method of training young toddlers, as young as one year old, was used on my little brother, Joshua, during one of the "training sessions" that Mrs. Krueger's mentor, Joe LaQuiere, used in order to teach his followers how to train "obedient" children. Joshua was made to sit on my mom or dad's lap, and spanked every time he tried to get down. He was a bright and happy baby, but very stubborn. He didn't want to give in, but kept on trying to get down, and getting spanked for it, over, and over, and over, and over. He'd cry and cry, but he wasn't allowed to be comforted until he "submitted" and gave in. The goal was to get him to "sit there quietly for as long as you want him to without resisting", as Mrs. Krueger wrote. This "training" session started in the afternoon, and went on...all afternoon...and evening...late into the night. It was 2 or 3 in the morning before Joe LaQuiere okay-ed stopping for the night. At this point they had been "training" him to sit still and not cry for over 6 hours. He was not allowed to nurse during this time, or to see his mother (my mom), because that would "comfort him", and they wanted him to be miserable until he gave in and obeyed. You may think "a small swat on the bottom" does not sound over-the-top for a small toddler as a way to get them to sit quietly (as if toddlers were created to "sit quietly" - their nature, and their developmental needs, as any child psychologist can tell you, require them to explore, not sit quietly for hours). What about spanking them over...and over...and over...for 6 hours straight? Does that sound abusive? Mrs. Krueger's methods (really, Joe LaQuiere's methods) say that you CANNOT GIVE UP until your child (or baby) submits to you and obeys, no matter now long that takes. If it takes all night, so be it. If it takes dozens, or a hundred spankings, so be it. This is not training, this is child abuse. My one-year-old brother Josh was subjected to this "training" day after day, until he finally, sullenly, gave in, and was now a "well-trained" baby, who would sit quietly on demand, and not try to get down and play in normal toddler fashion. In a few short months, he went from a bubbly, laughing one-year-old to a quiet, sullen, baby who rarely smiled. He was mostly silent from then on: he didn't speak until he was nearly 4. Joe LaQuiere, (who, remember, is Mrs. Krueger's mentor, and the one who taught her these methods) said Joshua was an exceptionally "rebellious" baby, and it was necessary to discipline the "rebelliousness" out of him until his will was broken.

See, Mrs. Krueger's book, and her advice, is really the somewhat-milder face of Joe LaQuiere's teaching: the public face, if you will. She watched more violent abuse occur, and was taught that it was acceptable: babies having their faces stuffed into couch cushions to teach them not to cry - children being beaten mercilessly with "The Paddle", not once, as she writes in her book, but often 20 or 30 times. Children being dragged by their hair, thrown against walls, or dangled in the air by their throats. My own siblings endured all of these abuses, and I was made to watch.

Mrs. Krueger, whether or not she treated her own children quite this severely, watched this abuse happen to other children, and agreed with it. Her book is merely the milder, public face of private child abuse, because she knows that some of the stricter methods taught by Joe LaQuiere would be too unpalatable to put in print, as well as likely to land her (and him) in trouble with law enforcement. But make no mistake that it occurs. To be fair, Mrs. Krueger and her husband I don't believe followed every child "training" (abuse) method that Joe LaQuiere taught: she and her family are best friends with him (one of her daughters is even married to one of Joe LaQuiere's sons), and while their methods differ somewhat in severity, the principle is the same: OBEDIENCE is paramount, and it is of little importance HOW you get your children to obey, or how often you must beat them, as long as the end result is IMMEDIATE, UNQUESTIONING obedience, from children of any age, even through adulthood. THIS is the goal (which is in itself a very bad goal) and the methods used to achieve it, as touted by Joe LaQuiere, through the mouthpiece of Mrs. Krueger, are cruel and damaging.

To this day, I suffer panic attacks and horrible flashbacks to watching my brothers and sisters abused through this method of child-rearing. I grew up emotionally-stunted, being taught that 'a cheerful face' was the only acceptable expression, and that any negative emotions I felt, like anger, or sadness, or frustration, were sin, and needed to be corrected. Thus I learned to disassociate myself from my emotions, effectively divorcing them from my conscious mind, which is a process I am still trying, with the help of therapy, to undo. The children, including those in my family, who grew up under these methods, are emotionally unstable; are fearful of and often unable to make their own decisions; are unable to move into independent adulthood without the constant guidance of parents telling them what to do; and worst of all, have a false and damaging picture of who God is, and who they are meant to be.

After leaving the cult that Mrs. Krueger belongs to, I was confused, depressed, and suicidal. I believed that God was an angry God who despised me for not reaching His standards of perfection. I learned nothing about grace through this experience. Thank God, I discovered it after I left, and realized that God does not treat us like Joe LaQuiere and Mrs. Krueger do their children: punishing every crime and dealing out justice until we are perfect. Instead, He already provided the perfect righteousness that we can never achieve through Jesus, and gave us in one fell swoop, a perfect record and status with him, and complete forgiveness of all sins, past and future! He doesn't demand perfect performance from us to gain His acceptance. We are not "spanked" until we learn to obey Him instantly, with no questions, and with a false smile. Instead, He loves on us, extravagantly, and at great personal cost to Himself, in order to draw us to Himself...by LOVE. LOVE is what calls us to CHOOSE to obey Him - not repeated punishment, or the fear that He will only "enjoy us" as long as we fulfill the letter of His law. THIS is how we need to treat our children: with the same mercy and grace that God showers on us. To follow Mrs. Krueger's method instead will give our children an outward layer of "goodness", on which they think their acceptance by God depends, while inwardly they remain full of sin and darkness, needing God's redeeming love and GRACE to flood in and wash them clean! Mrs. Krueger's book and methods create little Pharisees: looking pretty good on the outside, but with aching hearts inside, knowing the misery of never being "good enough". Thank God we don't HAVE to be "good enough" for Him: we already are, thanks to the sacrifice He made for us!

Please PLEASE do not recommend this book to your readers: encourage them instead to try something like "Families where Grace is in Place", or "Give Them Grace: Dazzling Your Children with the Love of Jesus" both EXCELLENT books!

If you have any questions, or would like to ask me specifics about why Mrs. Krueger's methods are so damaging, please feel free to email me at sarah.dutko77@gmail.com! I'd love to talk with you