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@irene: I've heard of positive disciple and I've even seen it talked about here. It's not really my style though, for the most part. I do believe there is a place for punishment, including time outs and natural consequences. For example, the onetime my son thought it was funny to spit his drink out all over, we calmly took the drink away. He's never done it again. If he hits he gets an automatic time out. We have a young baby and a dog and I don't tolerate hitting.

I'm not sure how positive discipline would adequately fix those issues. For my kid, being like Janet Lansbury and telling him "I'm not going to let you hit me" is just not enough to convince him not to do it again. But every kid is different and each respond to various methods differently.

@sunnyday: just seeing this now and would love to return to it in depth but wanted to quickly add. For me, I tend to get frustrated with my kids when I feel pressure. Example: kid is acting amok at grocery store, all eyes on me. Or I'm late to work and he won't get in the car. In order for me to take a step back and allow him to be a kid (who is occasionally loud, disruptive, and not time sensitive), I have to confront my perfectionistic tendencies and admit that I'm more affected by the disapproval of the people at the grocery store than I am by the noise my son is making. Sure it would be ideal if kidswere not disruptive in public but we have to run errands in public and sometimes we have to take our kids and sometimes it doesn't turn out great.

The question is, why am I so ashamed of having an unruly kid that I will lose it on him in order to get him to behave? I think it is because my parents expected me to behave, groomed me to be submissive to their expectations, and shamed me any time I expressed anything other than the "right" feelings...example that I recall, when we met my stepsister for the first time I was about 5 and my mom said to me, "make sure you don't talk too much when you meet her. You always talk too much when you are nervous." My mother was abusive in many ways, occasionally physically, but that's just one example of seemingly non-abusive language that can nevertheless turn people into perfectionistic, anxiety-prone basket cases.

Today my son threw a massive tantrum as I was getting him ready to go to school. I mean he was in the yard screaming. I didn't react. I just kept on doing what I needed to do and then when it was time to go i just gave him the choice to get there on time to have breakfast with friends or continue to scream and not get there in time for breakfast, and he chose to get in the car. Other times when he doesn't have a choice I try to empathize (I got the specific language from "raising an emotionally intelligent child"). Over time it has gotten easier!

I also don't censor myself. If he does something that affects me i tell him. But I try to use I language instead of accusations. Instead of "you are so clumsy!" it is something like, "I don't want to clean up this mess so please be more careful next time.". And of course ask him to clean it up himself when possible.

I lose my cool all the time still but typically I ask him to go to his room so that I can cool off and then come to his room with a plan of attack instead of acting out of instinct.

@Boogs: Mine does exactly the same thing. We have a nice talk about expectations, she agrees not to tantrum and agrees that tantrums lead to consequences like losing privileges or time outs. Then 2 seconds later, throws a giant tantrum and then an even bigger one when I tell her that she's lost her privilege or she's in time out. I don't know what to do.

@sunny: I think sometimes we just have to lean into the problem instead of away from the problem. For example my kiddo is having difficulty acting appropriate at restaurants. So husband and I decided that for three weeks, every time he acts up we will take him to the car. Deciding ahead of time helps us not to get too frustrated when it happens and we are forced to follow through. Now sometimes it is hard to follow through if following through is hard on kiddo AND parent. For example if I take him from restaurant my experience is diminished also. So in that case I might just admit that it is unrealistic to expect not to have to discipline my kid at the restaurant. If I need a smooth dining experience then maybe i should get a sitter, go by myself or with friends, or order takeout. But if I decide to take my kid out of a restaurant I should expect to have to follow through on consequences. That way I am not as likely to view myself as the "victim" of my child's behavior. I try to avoid parentification or emotional incest where I expect my child to behave in an adult way because it soothes my emotions. My mom did this all the time: "if it weren't for you kids...." etc. etc.

@sunny: I think some kids just don't have the ability / development to connect the tantrum or behaviour to the consequence once they get in to the moment. I try not to "punish" the tantrum because once my oldest gets to that point she's just not in control of herself (it's like the point of no return for her!) so a timeout isn't good for either of us.

@irene: He's 5!

@irene: Around the clock Hoping I also find magic soon!

@Mrs. Sketchbook: wow. That is a lot

My therapist helped me "diagnose" my dad as an antisocial narcissist. He did a lot of damage to us and ultimately I have not been able to successfully implement boundaries with him so he is no longer a part of my life. I have one (of three) siblings who will still communicate with our dad. We have reached a respectful understanding amongst each other and I'm grateful for that.

My mom is a welcome part of my life. We are all grown, productive and functioning members of society so in the end, faced with my dad, my mom did a good job of raising us. But she was raised in the 50s and 60s in a conservative small town in the midwest. It was all about appearance and well behaved children that are seen and not heard.

Recently my 4yo daughter and my mom and I went shopping for "beautiful shoes" for my girl. And my girl had something in mind that was apparently very specific. Store after store my mom and I showed her shoes. And she turned them down. At one point my mom commented to me that I'm "going to have trouble with her" if she's so difficult at 4. It took me a minute to process, but I reasoned that I don't want people to walk all over her in life. There's nothing wrong with wanting what you want, within reason. And she was not being rude or disrespectful. She was just stating her 4 yo opinion on shoes I told her she could pick out.

A year ago I may have insisted on the next pair of shoes I found appropriate. It takes time and persistence to recognize the impact of your childhood on your present self and determine how you want that changed. It's nt easy. Kudos to you for keeping at it. It's worth the effort.

I realize that this isn't quite in line with where this thread has gone...but because of this thread I more actively began to pursue more information on positive parenting. The first few days went well but we also hadn't really had much in the way of behavior "issues" anyway. This morning, as we were leaving our second (and last) grocery store, DD (3) had a massive meltdown. I usually end up getting super frustrated and scream at her to stop crying/revoke privileges. Which never leaves us feeling good. At first I got a little worked up. Then I took a breath and calmly said that we wouldn't turn on her music until she stopped screaming and I was going to turn on a timer for 2 minutes so she could scream as much as she wants. About 1 minute in she was a little calmer and I mentioned that when the timer went off we would stop screaming and turn on the music. I encouraged her to tell me she was mad and repeated what she was saying to me a few times. Like magic, the timer went off and she started calming down. We both left the situation feeling much better. I was t angry and I didn't have guilt in regards to how I handled nor did I feel confused about what to try next time. Thanks for making this thread!