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@pinkcupcake: Totally agree. I have personal judgements about this person, but I don't think it should have been shared by United/the media - they control perception.
@Truth Bombs: It just seems like we aren't understanding each other. I think it's wrong that the news media shared his past. Period. BUT, our country feeds off of that - they know it'll "sell". I think that our society "needs" an answer as to why United was justified at all, and that's where the criminal past satiates that need.
I do not think he was targeted because he was Asian.
I do think there is a pattern of society needing to find reasons why this person reacted the way he did. Like @travellingbee: mentioned. This happens more to minorities ... that's a fact.
I think the things he's done sound pretty shitty, and I would not want to associate with that kind of person. This instantly creates an empathy block for me on a personal level. Sadly for United, that doesn't make me empathize with them in the slightest.
I think United/the media can try to spin it by making it look like he was the bad guy (otherwise, why share that information?). Ultimately having people question, "well, would YOU want that person flying next to you?" - when his past actions had NOTHING to do with that situation.
Then jumping to the larger issue in America of victim blaming and that being more prevalent when it involves minorities.
So while I don't think it was motivated by racial profiling, etc., initially, I think that there are underlying theories/phenomenons at work. I wouldn't be able to say that the digging into his past wasn't racially motivated.
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@pinkcupcake: I get what you're saying about it being a really awful situation, but customers of any business are entering into a shaky situation if they consider that money paid= access.
Today I rented a pool for my kid's birthday, paid in full. If I showed up with people and someone pooped in the pool, and the lifeguards said "party over," would I have the right to like, get in the pool and swim around and be like "heck no, I paid for this months ago and this is my kid's fifth birthday and nothing is going to change my plans!" No matter how important my kid's birthday party is to me, it still isn't my pool. And the money I gave them only granted me access to the pool under the conditions that they set.
I don't know enough about flying to know the distinction between asking someone not to board vs. asking someone to deplane, and how that is spelled out in the fine print on the ticket, but I feel like it probably says on there somewhere "we can pull you off a plane for any reason at any time" because surely they know that unanticipated things pop up and they can't anticipate every possible reason that someone might be asked to deplane. I definitely see how UA thought it was better customer service to piss off 4 people rather than however many would be angered if the staffing issue created additional delays/cancellations. If the person had just gotten angry, gotten off the plane, gotten a lawyer and sued, wouldn't that have been a better way of handling this?
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@littlejoy: I think one of the reasons for the insane speculation into his past is that people really don't know what happened to force security into the situation, and what happened between security and the customer before they decided to forcibly remove him. His checkered past gives people the notion that they can glean insight into what happened to escalate the situation. You are correct that it really does not. BUT, this is what happens in the "court of public opinion" when everyone is a reporter, and authorities don't have body cameras. Back in the day, a security/police report identifying this person as uncooperative would be enough to end the speculation. Thankfully now citizens can tape this stuff and show how authorities abuse power. But we really don't know if it was an abuse of power because we don't know what went down immediately prior. Which is probably why we should all just quit talking about it....
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She's obviously a bit biased (as a pilots wife) but she articulated some things to think about very well.
I hadn't had a chance to catch up on this page since yesterday and I have only now caught up on the comments. I am still so intrigued by why no other passenger on the plane offered their seat when it was obvious how the situation was escalating.
All of that said - from what I can tell...I get the frustration with United - I 100% do. However, it seems its rather misplaced. They followed their terms. They followed their policies (albeit people may not fully know their policies before flying). They followed their protocols (from the accounts I have heard - of course I dont know that for fact). It appears the outrage should be at the aviation security. Although - I did hear an account (perhaps it was the guy who's video has gone viral) where he indicated the first two officers to board the plane were a cordial as could be the gentleman. The outrage should be with the third officer - who forcibly removed the passenger. At that - he was asked by United to remove a passenger. Its a confined space...I'm not sure it would have gone great no matter what without participation from the passenger.
With regard to the passenger - I do think he should carry some of the blame. As others have mentioned - I understand being anrgy...I can get on board with shouting, profanities, even an initial "get your hands off me" push back to an officer. But if an airline sends 3 security officers on to a plane to get you the gig is up. Its time to be an adult...get off the plane and pick your battle elsewhere.
As for his past...I think some of it is 100% relevant. His arrest history may not be completely relevant but some of the information I have seen from medical board reviews 100% point to an individual who has shown a history of resistant to rules/authority. And that I think is relevant to the case at hand...
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FYI everyone, I believe he is Vietnamese
@littlejoy: I am first gen Chinese immigrant. While based on facts alone I don't think race had anything to do with it, in reality, who really knows. I think that as minorities we're definitely very spooked and probably over-sensitivity nowadays and sometimes I find it hard to distinguish what's racism/discrimination and what's not anymore... There are so many things that when I think back to it now, I'm like wait, did this happen (or not happen) because of my race...? In this case, who knows if the officiers would've been less violent if it was not a minority passenger acting the exact same ways? We'll never know, and so I guess we can't really go down that path...
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@Mrs D: I totally think he didn't handle the situation well. I also agree that it seems United followed their policies. But I don't AGREE with their policies. So that is my beef. I don't want to fly with them if those are their policies. (Also, the security officer who mishandled him was placed on leave so I appreciate that.)
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@travellingbee: I stopped flying them years ago when they departed from an airport during a hurricane without clearance to land at the destination airport (as I understand it this is a HUGE no-no in aviation)...so I'm ahead of the game in boycotting them and their decisions/practices...
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@Mrs D:
For anyone wanting to know more context... cnn posted a video of how the man was behaving right before the forcible removal. And, as you can see, he was not freaking out or acting like a toddler. He was calm but insistent. http://www.cnn.com/videos/cnnmoney/2017/04/12/united-airlines-passenger-new-angle-video.hln
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@travellingbee: oh, very interesting! Thanks for posting that.
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@travellingbee: I feel like I'm just unnecessarily stoking fires, but here I go again...I think all the airlines have the same general policies, at least according to that link some of it is codified by law. I can't imagine any airline not putting in their policies "we reserve the right to change flights, deny service, ((fillintheblank)) etc., for any reason." just because it would be irresponsible to do otherwise, given that one cannot anticipate every situation that might require such a thing, and some might be totally valid. At the risk of sounding coy, flying is not a right, even if it is a service we all rely on to a great extent.
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From the Pilots Wife blog post. This is what I agree with the most:
"The passenger was forcibly removed by federal aviation security (the disturbing clip that everyone is talking about) after running back into the secured area after being escorted out once. Once he did that, like it or not, they (law enforcement) were under full discretion of the law to apply necessary force to remove the threat. I’m not saying it’s pretty, but the only one who actually broke a law was the passenger. There’s a reason for these laws–it’s called 9/11. We can’t have it both ways."
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@T.H.O.U.: No that just isn't true. The video and all of the news stories are very clear on this. He was forcibly removed from his seat while he was sitting there refusing to leave. Then after they removed him he ran back onto the plane bloodied and concussed and was removed again. Of course after he ran back onto the plane bloodied and concussed they had to remove him. They did not have to forcibly remove him when he was calmly sitting in his seat refusing to get up.
ETA: Watch the video I just posted. That was the moment before they removed him. Does he look like he is freaking out? The video of him being dragged out, it's right after that. Then there are pictures of him running back onto the plane and holding onto a pole in the back of the plane with a bloodied up face. He couldn't have run back onto the plane and then got dragged out or how would his face have gotten all bloody?!
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@travellingbee: I disagree. If I go stand and block the door to the pilots on a plane do you not want them to have the right to remove me?
The airplane is not public space.
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@T.H.O.U.: I don't know what you were disagreeing with? Her account is not correct. She says that he was forcibly removed and the video is of him being removed after he went back onto the plane. That is not correct. He was forcibly removed and then he went back onto the plane
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@Mrs. Sketchbook: Agree to disagree. But it isn't true that all airlines have the same policies. As I posted earlier, southwest states on their page that no customers will be denied boarding if they hold a boarding pass.
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@T.H.O.U.: @travellingbee: there are three video segments I have seen.
Segment 1: passenger in his seat telling crew or aviation security he will not leave.
Segment 2: aviation security lifting him out of his seat, passenger hitting his head on the arm rest, and being dragged by the arms on the floor
Segment 3: passenger bleeding on his face leaning against the plane after he got back on the plane after being dragged off
From witness accounts he was finally removed by stretcher, so I guess he was carried this time, after Segment 3.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: correct.
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@T.H.O.U.: her version of the events is incorrect. He was bloody when he was running back into the plane.
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@travellingbee: I'm saying I believe air police should have the right to forcibly remove a passenger that is not cooperating even if it means using force. That's protection for passengers and staff from 9/11 type attacks. Again you can't have it both ways. Police need the right to remove people that are not cooperating. It's for safety.
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@pinkcupcake: either way. He wasn't cooperating. They have the right to physically remove him.
But I also come from a Florida where you can be shot if you are someone's property where you aren't supposed to be.
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I haven't read all of these comments and I don't even know all of what happened. It sucks all around. But why create such drama for yourself? If the airlines asked you to give up your seat, just give up your seat and then raise hell and seek recourse afterwards. Why was he running back onto the plane? That's crazy! Special snowflake, for sure.
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@agold: special snowflake? Really? He ran back into the plane delirious. According to reports, he likely suffered a concussion when he hit his head.
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@T.H.O.U.: wow. Makes me glad I live where I do. And I disagree. That doesn't give them the right to manhandle him like that. Even the UA CEO has come out to say so
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@T.H.O.U.: I respect your opinion but wholeheartedly disagree. He was not being unsafe. He just didn't want to take $800 to volunteer to leave. Police do have a legal right to remove passengers that are being unruly. And it seems united was working within the law. But I don't think it is right that an airline should request security forcibly remove someone just because they didn't want to pay more to get volunteers. They made their decision, now they are regretting it. But I respect your differing opinion and support for them. I just wanted to make it clear that her account was not correct. Anyone can form whatever opinion they would like, but they should do so based on facts.
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If the forcible removal rules were created because of 9/11 then this would have been abuse of that discretion. He was not a threat to the safety of passengers, crew or operation of the aircraft when all this started. Reporting has been very clear and even @Meow that if the 4 crew weren't on the plane there would be a domino effect. The domino effect was inconvience not safety. Other delayed or canceled flights.
When I saw the third video I felt even worse for the man. What a shitshow!
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@pinkcupcake: Really? He was delirious to the point that he ran back into the plane without intention? That's crazy! I consider him a special snowflake, still.
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@agold: have you seen the video(s)?
I love how people admit they haven't really read up on this but are so quick to offer judgment.
I really hope your tone is just coming across wrong on the internet because that's a really horrible thing to say about a person who suffered a concussion.
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: yes, everything you said. he wasn't a threat until they removed him like this. This entire situation was created by UA and the aviation security officials who reacted inappropriately
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@agold: perhaps you have never have had the misfortune of being concussed and disoriented, but it certainly happens. Referring to this man as a "special snowflake" after he was subjected to unnecessary force is really gross.
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@T.H.O.U.: " I'm saying I believe air police should have the right to forcibly remove a passenger that is not cooperating even if it means using force. That's protection for passengers and staff from 9/11 type attacks. Again you can't have it both ways. Police need the right to remove people that are not cooperating. It's for safety."
I disagree. What if they had asked him to quack like a duck and he refused? He is "not cooperating".
I've read a lawyer offer up the opinion saying that at the point where he was sitting in his seat, it is no longer an "involuntary denial of boarding" situation, but a "refusal of transport" situation. The requirements for removing a person from the flight in order to "refuse transport" are different than IDB. And per the analysis I read, making space for crew is not a valid reason to refuse to transport.
Also, I read that there may be a case of mistaken identity with this passenger and that he might not be the doctor who had previously been convicted of a felony and that might be ANOTHER doctor with the same name. I have no idea if this is true or not... but if it is, in the haste to publish the salacious details of his past, there may have been some fact checking that got skipped and now we have a person who is also being defamed.
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@agold: At that point he had a serious head injury and was bleeding. Calling him names is pretty callous.
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@sunny: I was thinking that wow they worked out their marriage after all that scandal!
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@T.H.O.U.: he ran back on the plane after they dragged him off, passengers said he looked disoriented, he probably had some concussion with his head smack.
If you think shooting people is good policy, you're probably not going to have a successful business no matter how legal it is. No ones going to go to ice cream shop with a potential side of stoning.
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@pinkcupcake: @azjax: I haven't seen the video where he ran back on to the plane. But I've seen two others and can imagine him doing it. I haven't had a concussion and honestly did not know that a concussion could make a person do something crazy like unintentionally run back onto a plane that the person was just dragged off of. I agree that its crazy the police dragged him off the plane and the airlines have stupid policies. But its crazy he did not just stand up and allow himself to be escorted off the plane and raise issue thereafter.
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