GOLD / wonderful pea / 17697 posts
@2PeasinaPod: My brother and SIL are like this. They can't have babies naturally (but as far as we know they could do IVF), but won't even consider it because it "takes God out of the process). I kind of want to be like "well god gave us the brain potential to develop this sort of technology" but I respect that's the way they feel and keep my mouth shut.
I didn't read the tweets or whatever, but I don't personally see a problem with selecting the sex if given the chance.
wonderful pea / 17279 posts
@2PeasinaPod: ok, thanks for the link. I understand now what the troll was saying. Too bad she was misinformed.
@Trailmix: @2PeasinaPod: @snowjewelz: as soon as this thread popped up I sent the original article link to my husband b/c he swears up and down that certain medical advances made by horrific Nazi experiments are illegal. His reply was they are just unethical. Anyway, I truly think this is just one other thing apart of modern science that does raise medical ethical questions, but as long as it's not illegal the answer lies with the parties immediately involved - doctor & patients.
eggplant / 11408 posts
@trailmix: @2PeasinaPod: for what it's worth, the Catholic Church is against IVF for similar reasons-the fact that decisions like these can be made for gender, etc is akin to "playing God." Yes, I think it's u likely that anyone will in the near future will select for eye color, but if the science is there, who knows? Some psychotic leader/group/person could do it.
@Sapphiresun: this I agree with. Picking a sex of an embryo is legal and not dangerous in the US, but what about this technology in places where it's still the custom to discriminate against baby girls? What's to say that a doctor wouldnt enourage a couple to implant a boy because it's more socially /desirable? The ethics of sex selection make me uncomfortable.
@oliviaoblivia: I sort like that it's illegal. Takes that one factor out of the decision-making process to focus only on the health of the embryos
@snowjewelz: for what it's worth, and I'm not saying I agree with this, but the Catholic Church is against IUI, as well, but not against headache medicine. I think it is dangerous to conflate the two.
pomelo / 5000 posts
@LovelyPlum: I knew my devout Catholic friends were not okay with the infertility treatments we did. While there was a bit of a sting in the moment, enough time has passed where I can say that I respect their beliefs. No one was a jerk about it, but I knew where they stood on things. That's ok.
People may be against selecting a baby's sex for a number of reasons, including religious beliefs. It's ok to disagree to a respectful manner--social media isn't the best place for those "discussions" to take place.
wonderful kiwi / 23653 posts
@LovelyPlum: there are definitely a lot of conflicting ideals in the church, no matter what sect... I think mostly it's easy for people to judge on things that they are more removed from.
But you def raise a good point about discrimination. I mean, I'm Chinese and the ramification of discrimination against girls in China is great even till this day.
@Happygal: that's such a tough situation, particularly when it's people you care about. I have a good number of devout Catholic friends who I know are very against intervention (they're OK with drugs, but not IUI/IVF). If I were to struggle with getting pregnant (as opposed to staying pregnant), I don't know what I would choose to do. I understand both sides, as it were, so it would be a hard choice for me.
And yes, I agree that it's a really tough conversation to have over social media, particularly because you don't usually know the people you're talking to as well.
@snowjewelz: I was just trying to point out that the Catholic Church in particular isn't anti-medicine in general, even if there are some treatments they disagree with.
And yes, I agree that there are some seriously problematic views of women in certain countries that sex-selection technologies could potentially affect. I heard on NPR yesterday that up to a third of WOMEN in India believe that wife-beating is OK:
That's all just to say that while any one person's decision may be their own, the collective effect of such decisions can have larger consequences, especially in societies that are not as free and open as the US. That's why I don't like it.
wonderful grape / 20453 posts
I don't think it's a big deal to implant the specific embryos you want. I think everybody's personal family and how they build it is their own business, although when you open up, you're going to get comments.
Then again, there are also people who are against IVF, so...meh. Should we only allow them to implant one embryo because twins are more complicated? I mean, this argument can go around and around and around and around.
pomegranate / 3127 posts
@cascademom: @2PeasinaPod: exactly, I think it's the way she's talking about it that is getting some people riled up. Every embryo is more than gender, it's a potential child, and the idea of choosing between two healthy embryos is pretty heartbreaking. It's hard to gauge anyone's tone over the internet, but she seems so casual about it!
Not to mention there are countries where gender selection (in a different form) is a thing. I guess everyone has some gender preference, but actually picking a gender is a bit of a slippery slope if it somehow becomes mainstream.
nectarine / 2220 posts
@LovelyPlum: I feel like people think a preference toward sons is ancient history but it really wasn't all that long ago in some places. And even if gender selection became common practice, and those who don't have that mind set chose boys and girls equally, or even tipped the scale toward female, the idea of a generation of men chosen and raised by families that believe men are superior is a bit concerning to me. Not that it doesn't happen with the old fashioned coin flip that is "natural" conception.
@Sapphiresun: yes, very recent history. Good point about the mindset of a generation-that's scary to think about.
I'm in no way implying that a couple going through IVF and choosing one sex over the other necessarily leads to so-called "designer babies." I am saying, though, that we need to realize that verified instances of government-sponsored, or, at the very least, condoned, scientific experiments with eugenics are less than a generation old, both im Europe and in the United States. It's not ancient history; it happened in the West in the twentieth century. And it happened without the assistance of artificial reproductive technologies. Like I said before, one individual's decision might not change the world. And, sometimes this selection can be GOOD. There are scientists working to replace disease-prone mitochondria in cells with healthy mitochondria to allow parents to not pass on deadly diseases. But here, too, the ethics are fluid, and the concern is to use it for good, not on a whim. That's why I think these discussions are so important to have!
nectarine / 2148 posts
As a preface, I really don't care what kind of choices other people make for their families (and I don't mean this in any sort of confrontational way). I think IVF is great too, but I am personally against the idea of gender selection.
Right now we are at a point that doing gender selection is not an easy thing or as accessible for everyone to do. But, what if we did get to a point where it was financially and medically available for almost anyone to do it. What would the outcomes be? Surely it isn't something that is going to change overnight, but just because it won't doesn't mean I can't be against. So I should only be concerned if it becomes an issue?
One slightly different situation, but similar problem you could currently look at is China. You have a mass population that puts a lot of value on having sons. Even multiple sons. Then you had all that crazy shenanigans with self-abortions, etc. So now you have a mass population that is predominately male and there are a lot of repercussions the country is having as a result.
grapefruit / 4355 posts
@Eko: I agree with everything you just said!
I have zero issues with people doing IVF and I would do the same if that is what it took to build our family.
But I do have a bit of a moral issue with choosing gender. Just because the technology is expensive and not readily available to the masses now doesn't mean that it won't be one day. And then what? I also believe that one day we will have the technology to choose eye color, hair color, etc. And when that day comes, I sincerely hope that the masses don't have the option to take advantage of it.
Right now, people might only typically do this because they have a slight gender preference. But if/when it becomes more readily available, how do you prevent large portions of the population from putting major emphasis on it being better to have one gender over the other?
pomegranate / 3764 posts
I didn't think you were allowed to know the sex of your PGD embryos unless it was for a genetic testing situation? Unless that has changed now... so much has.
We have only done regular IVF and never PGD, but I would rather not know regardless. IVF and Infertility takes so much fun/surprise/enjoyment out of TTC.. finding out the sex was the one great surprise we could have, before meeting her in person, that is.
That said, her choice, her business. But yeah, if she chose to disclose it, she should prepare for people to criticize her. (Unfortunately.) I'm pro-vocal for IVF/Infertility and educating the uneducated, but you'll come across so many idiots in that process, it's frustrating.
pomelo / 5678 posts
This is a very surprising thread. I don't see how this is about "someone else's choices." I'm not sure how anyone could see this as anything other than an ethical slippery slope/ ethical issue.
clementine / 777 posts
It's legal and I'm completely okay with it. I have difficulty seeing it as a realistic slippery slope situation, but respect those who feel that way. I understand the fear.
nectarine / 2433 posts
My DD was conceived with IVF after a long journey so I understand what the process takes. That said I would not have chosen to know the gender if it was available. I have concerns about it eventually being readily available for all kinds of reasons.
My husbands cultures places a high value on sons and I would be concerned that this kind of technology would be used in a detrimental way.
Having done IVF at a very reputable clinic in Canada I can tell you while it may be illegal here I know that others who have done PGD and have been offered the opportunity to know the embryos gender....
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