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@Weagle: Based on your understanding is it only physical abuse, or does emotional, verbal etc abuse count too?
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@prettylizy: I actually am not a Dr. Laura fan and I don't think that's good advice... or maybe not the best way to deliver advice. I do think that most people who call her already want a kick in the rear so they know what they're getting! But that's another masochism thing.
Anyway, I do think she has a point in this. Some people don't think about all the possible implications of divorce, unfortunately. I have heard many women totally shocked and blindsided by the financial devastation caused by divorce, and the PITA of arranging and sharing custody. So, it was probably said in an extremely bitchy way, but she WOULD probably have to coparent and it COULD be with a cheap floozy LOL... you have to be willing to decide that's better than the alternative.
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@MrsBrewer:
thanks.@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: Definitely something we've agreed upon and something that I've been taught by those around me. We didn't enter marriage lightly at all. I grew up in a fairly conservative Christian background where I watched the marriage relationship not only of my parents but of the parents of peers in my church. It struck me how intentional everyone was with their relationships.
(I will say that divorce in my church and community is uncommon and for those who it has (sadly!) been a reality for -- it was definitely needed! There is no excuse, I think, for staying with someone who is abusing you or your kids and I think that someone who stays with a serial cheater is just...well...as @MsLipGloss put it, a masochist!)
Anyway, when DH and I met, there was instant attraction (ohhhh yeah! ;)) and a quick friendship and we grew to be deep friends over six months or so. We basically decided we weren't going to start dating unless we could see a long future together because we were long distance. I think that the pattern of intentionality I saw growing up really helped with that goal -- we started dating seriously and with the intent that we were seeing whether we could build a life together. We've been intentional every step of the way and I find that we need to be intentional even (especially!) now.
For example, I'm currently 4 mo pregnant and I have a 7 mo old. This pregnancy wasn't planned. My sex drive right now is pretty much at a 0 and has been since the pregnancy. My husband, on the other hand, is very high drive and needs physical attention to feel wanted, loved, happy, etc. as most people do. It got to a point where it was hurting our relationship. I could tell that he wasn't happy and was struggling. We sat down and talked about it and now we have an intentional plan in place and let's just say the the sex has been killer ;), it has been at a rate that has been acceptable to both of us, and DH has done things to ensure I get rest so that I'm ready for a little lovin'. And he's happy again! All it took was communication and intentionality. It is definitely not always that easy. But for us -- we've agreed to make this work, we've agreed to be intentional, and we made these promises to each other on the day we married and we've made them to each other every day since.
@MsLipGloss: I appreciated your clarification above. By definition, yes, those things are true. But the wording of your original posts came out much harsher than I think you intended.
I don't think standing up for people who've been through ugly divorces and people who use faith to drive their decisions in life are mutually exclusive. I have never judged someone who got divorced. I don't think it's people who are religious or "moral" who would look down upon someone who is divorced negatively -- just those who don't have a heart. In fact, people in my religion (the Christian faith) should be the most loving to those who go through situations like divorce because that is the pattern that Jesus Christ set for us!
Clearly, NO one gets married wanting to get divorced. And no one can judge someone for "not trying hard enough" unless they were one of the parties involved in the marriage. I would just ask that because I (and others) live my life with my Christian faith at the forefront of our decisions, that we don't be looked down upon and that people don't assume that we are judging them just because they live their life differently.
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I agree that you should try to work on it. You married someone for a reason, unless you're being abused I don't think you should just walk away- you should voice if you are unhappy.
HOWEVER, if you want to work on your marriage and the partner doesn't put in the effort to work on it (won't go to counseling, ignores your requests to discuss issues, etc) then at some point you have no other choice. No one should stay unhappy, but I do think that steps should be taken or at least attempted before bailing.
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@coopsmama: well said!
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@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: I can't answer for @weagle but I know people in our faith (actually a relative!) who stayed with her husband after he had a sexual and emotional affair with an ex-girlfriend. Everyone said we would support her however she chose! Their marriage is going strong now, though I know it took several years to get back on track fully.
I also know someone who left her husband because he abused (not physically or sexually -- it's a very personal situation that I don't want to explain here because I don't think it allows them anonymity) his family and after, I think, 4 years of separation and lots of counseling and life change on his part -- they've been back together for 2 years and doing well. Tbh, that one made me nervous just because of the extent of what had happened but I know the wife didn't make the decision lightly and the kids are extremely happy now, too.
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@tarariggins: I haven't read that book, no, but I'll add it to my list! I actually haven't read much from John Piper at all which is funny since one of my majors in college was theology.
I'm glad to meet others of a similar faith here.
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Some couples don't mutually put in the effort, and one of the partners can't keep the marriage alive on their own either. If someone is completely doing everything possible on their side, you can't always make your partner do the same. So, your supposed to just suffer forever with someone who doesn't care to try? I think not.
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@mamimami: Fair enough, but I could say the same thing about weddings. People often don't think hard enough about what the cost of a wedding is going in and are blown away at what to spend and the PITA of wrangling family and friend etc. Ignorance to the reality of a situation doesn't mean we should just stop doing it. I could also argue that the said husband could hypothetically start sleeping with the floozy while still in his marriage. There is equal evidence (aka non! lol!) that either of these situations could occur.
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@prettylizy: I would include emotional/verbal abuse as well.
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I feel like I gave up my right to a feeling of "happiness" when I started having children - nothing is more important to me than a loving, two-parent home for my child.
That being said, I work actively to be happy within my marriage. I don't talk badly about my husband, I cook him his favorite food, ect, all things to try to create happiness in our home. I figure if we have to stay married, we might as well be happy!
But that all depends on picking a stable, good man to begin with...I have no experience with a truly bad relationship and I respect women that see that leaving is better for themselves and their children.
(And I actually like and listen to Dr. Laura. Her advice is to pick wisely and choose kindly and that's what I try to do. But she doesn't advocate staying in relationships where there is abuse, addiction, or adultery. )
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@prettylizy: physiology?!? Wtf is this chick giving martial advice? And by the way, I do believe a sexless marriage is breaching the contract
anyways...
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@septca: Very well said!
Divorce is not something that is off the table for me, personally, but its also not my first response when something goes badly. I think that is a last resort, which is why we need to actively work to keep things happy.
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@JoJoGirl: I can't speak for others, but in the Catholic Church, you can have your marriage annulled. I know some Catholics who had their marriages annulled, and others who didn't. If you want to get remarried, though, you do have to get an annulment, even if your marriage wasn't in the Church. The annulment has nothing to do with the civil marriage; rather, it has to do with the spiritual union (because in the Catholic Church, marriage is a sacrament). However, in order for it to be a valid sacrament, certain criteria have to be met, and the annulment process is a way to determine whether any of those criteria were not present when the sacrament was celebrated. I know practicing Catholics who are divorced, some of whom have received annulments, and others who haven't. My MIL has an annulment, my grandmother does not.
Although each diocese is slightly different, this explanation from the Archdiocese of Atlanta is worded particularly clearly, I think: http://www.archatl.com/offices/tribunal/drm_c.html
Like I said, I can't judge people for trying to do what's best in their own particular situation. I also know that marriage means different things to different people-some people see it as a sacrament; most do not. I think what's most important are for the two people getting married to be on the same page about their level of commitment. And if one person decides they're not all-in anymore, than I think that the other person should have the right to protect themselves and get out.
Anyways, sorry for the long-winded response. I haven't really been following the entire conversation, but you asked a question that I could actually answer!
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@coopsmama: I love theology! It both excites and frustrates me.
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@mrs. bird: yes! I wrote my own vows so that I could be totally sure I could commit to what I said!
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I haven't read through all of the comments but my take on it is that when you get married you should know that there is a good chance that you won't feel happy at some point, and you will have to work extra hard at the relationship at that point, even if it takes awhile. If there is abuse involved, that's another story, but otherwise I think there is an obligation to try your absolute best to work things out. I'm not saying to be unhappy for life but sometimes we need to just tough it out in certain stages of life when our marriages take a hit. (Having a baby is definitely one of them IMO!)
As or the effects on children... Different studies show different things (both positive and negative) and I think it goes to show that it depends on the specific circumstances of each couple/family.
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Like others have said, life is too short to be unhappy. Do I think people these days get divorced too quickly without putting much work into the marriage? Yeah, probably. But that's not for me to judge. I don't think the high divorce rate "tarnishes" the institution of marriage, as I've heard people say before, because the only marriage I'm concerned about is mine. If we hit the skids, I do plan to try my damnedest to work it out. If we can't, c'est la vie. You only get one life, and I wouldn't want to waste it being unhappy.
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I think we all need to stay out of each other's marriages. Honestly, what works for one couple, doesn't work for another. No one knows how it is for anyone other than themselves, not even their spouse, period, end of story.
I like options, so I appreciate that divorce is an option for couples that feel that is the solution to their issues.
I also wanted to add that sometimes, you just make a bad choice. Nothing wrong with admitting that.
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When my husband and I got married, it was done with confidence and certainty. Our intentions were, and still are, forever. With that being said, we're not walking, breathing crystal balls. Neither of us have any idea what kind of events or circumstances will occur in the future. Our marriage can certainly be rocked in years to come, and we may or may not survive the storm. I plan to continue working hard to nurture our marriage, and I'm not above therapy and couples retreats to pick ourselves up and out of a rut. Divorce is last resort in our marriage, if all other attempts to fix have been exhausted. It's not a choice I'd ever like to make, but life is too short to be miserable, and I fully intend to focus on happiness.
A lot of people mention that they feel a responsibility to stay married for their children. Personally, I feel a responsibility to model love. Children can and do sense tension, and you can't always fake it 'til you make it. I have several friends with married parents, who have been vocal about wondering and wishing their parents would have just divorced. I want my children to prioritize a mutually beneficial relationship; one filled with romance, humor, and respect.
I don't think people have suddenly gotten lazy about marriage, per say. Women may just maintain more of an identity outside of their marriage, these days. Professional prospects are more plentiful, and marriage is not the be-all-end-all safety net for women, everywhere.
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My step-father is a pastor and both he and my mother were previously married. ::shrugs:: My siblings and I grew up happy, healthy, and with an execellent example of a positive relationship.
Conversely, DH's parents have one of the most dysfunctional relationships I have ever seen. Their children have been begging their father to divorce their mother since they were children. He refuses because it is a "sin." Ridiculous. His stubborness has subjected his children to years of verbal and emotional abuse and they are all significantly damaged because of it. Choosing to stay married simply because you don't believe in divorce, knowing that it is damaging your children, is irresponsible in my opinion.
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I agree with @septca: The happiness mindset comes from within, yet so many times, people rely on others to make them happy and when they fall short, people give up on the relationship. Of course there are legitimate reasons for divorce but my personal opinion is that way too many people give up on their marriage far too easily. And I honestly think this mindset of 'oh if it doesn't work out, divorce is always an option' is a huge part of it. Going into any major endeavour in life with a way out in the back of your mind seems to make it more likely you'll give up sooner than you would had you told yourself there was no option but success from the start.
@mslipgloss: I don't think going into marriage saying divorce is not an option is naive or masochistic, I think it's going in with every intent of making it work and not letting failure be an option. It's all about the mindset - of course a strong mindset alone isn't always enough to pull us through and sometimes failure will occur, but it's better than going in with an exit plan for when times get tough.
A real simple analogy I use to describe it is from when I was a runner. If I started a run with the mindset that I could walk for a bit if I got really tired, I more often than not did end up walking at some stage during my run (ie giving up because I had that exit plan in the back of my head from the start). If I started with the mindset that I was absolutely going to run X amount of miles, no matter the pain, I nearly always did. Yes, I would sometimes get a stitch that would cause me to slow down to the point where it almost couldn't even be considered running, but it would go away and I'd pick up speed again (my equivalent to marriage hitting a rough spot and having to work on it, but then seeing it get better).
I know that is an extremely simple analogy and marriage is far more complex than that, but throughout my working life, I have seen time and time again that the mindset we enter into something with has a significant effect on the outcome. And I know it takes two to tango but hopefully couples actually discuss this kind of stuff before getting married and have similar viewpoints on how they would manage such situations. As I said though, there are definitely legitimate reasons for divorce, I just struggle to believe that the 50% of all marriages that end in divorce were really because the couple tried everything in their power to make it work. Then again, to each their own and no one else's marriage status affects my own so who am I to judge?
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@Ree723: I didn't say you should walk into a marriage and anticipate failure, or to plan accordingly. I don't personally know anyone who thought their marriage would fail or who approached it with the anticipation that it would, in fact, fail. ETA: Or, that if it did fail, *ooops, no biggie* . . . What I said was that proclaiming that *divorce is not an option* is naive and/or masochistic. Because it is. Life is what happens when you are making other plans.
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@looch: you know what, I answered based on how i feel about marriage in general, but i really like your response. So true that we really can't say how it is for anyone else except ourselves. To that end I honestly don't really even think about people's past marriages or question divorces too much. The only divorced person I have ever judged regarding it is someone who was judgy toward my spouse and I... Not saying it was right!
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@MsLipGloss: I agree that going around proclaiming divorce is never an option is a bit much as it is true, you never know what hand life is going to deal you. But when you have the idea in your head that divorce is always an option if you're unhappy, whilst of course thinking it will never happen to you, you are establishing a bit of that exit plan should things get tough down the road. You've already overcome the first hurdle in getting yourself to accept that divorce is an ok option and I think once you start down that road, it's hard to bring yourself back.
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@Ree723: LOL. Knowing that divorce is an option = Step 1 in going down the divorce road? That knowledge is the *slippery slope* toward divorce? I hope you're not serious.
ETA: That's the equivalent of saying that knowing bankruptcy is an option is the first step toward financial ruin.
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@MsLipGloss: Yeah, agreed. For me, the only situation I don't have an out from is mothering my child(ren). I can drop out of any school program, quit any job, sell any house, absolve any marriage. Doesn't mean I take these endeavors on with a negative outlook, or purposefully set myself up for failure. I give my all, but there's always freewill. *shrug*
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@MsLipGloss: Wow, you've been all about the misconstruing on this thread. I can't, I just can't. It's too early here and pregnancy insomnia is the only reason I'm awake. All I said was that when you hit a rough spot, being ok with divorce potentially makes one more likely to consider that a viable option before exhausting every other means of saving the marriage. Not always of course, there are no black and white lines here, but those have been my observations from family, friends, co-workers, and clients. Hell, what do I know though? And really what do any of us know about anyone else's marriage or views on marriage? Let's just agree to disagree so I can get back to sleep.
ETA re your bankruptcy statement: Well yes, if you take a risky financial move with the mindset that if it fails you can always just declare bankruptcy. That's not a good way to enter into a financial endeavour is it?
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My goodness this thread is something else.
Speaking from the point of view of someone that is divorced I obviosuly won't say that divorce is never an option.
Before getting married the second time we decided that Infidelity would be reason for divorce, plain and simple. There will be no forgiving. That is a deal breaker because these things don't 'just happen'.
That was the root of the divorce for me, he cheated so we got divorced. However, we were terrible together. He was verbally and emotionally abusive. It was a toxic relationship from the beginning. We were also too young to grasp the gravity of our decision. At only 19yrs old we were not at all ready to make a life long commitment.
Now, 8 years after my divorce I have been happily remarried for 2 years. I am in the best relationship of my life with a man that loves me more than I could have ever thought possible. A man that embraced my daughters as his own with no hesitation and who provides the best life for us. He is my partner and my best friend.
I would never have been able to have this relationship with my first husband. Staying in that marriage would have been an awful life to live.
To say divorce isn't an option or is 'wrong' is not a very logical statement in my book and that's based on first hand experience.
I will never stay in a relationship just because someone tells me it's wrong to leave. That's my decision to make. -
@Ree723: You chimed in on this thread and posted to me. I haven't misconstrued anything. If you don't like the result of the practical application of your theory, then you should modify your theory or reconsider it. I understand your premise. What you don't seem to appreciate is the resulting absurdity from its application to the topic at hand. But yes, we can agree to disagree.
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I don't think falling out of love, in and of itself, is a reason to divorce. Especially with kids, I believe marriage is worth trying for. But who's to say that the woman that called hasn't tried? She may have summed it up into a few sentences and/or didn't explain the situation properly. Divorce is no joke and when you bring kids into the mix, there must be a lot more going on than "falling out of love".
I'm divorced. It was a horrible experience I don't wish on anyone, but at the same time, I'm grateful because of it - or else I wouldn't have ever met my DH.
I believe divorce is definitely an option, but only as a last resort.
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We don't think of divorce as an option based on our understanding of marriage and our faith; Yet (obviously) a marriage takes two people being entirely committed. You can't make a marriage work alone, and all it takes is one of the spouses checking out for it to fail. I do think that it's good advice to crack down and work on things if you're the spouse who's checking out early.
@MsLipGloss: We disagree and that's fine, but personal judgments seem unproductive to any dialogue. Even if you're unconcerned about offending, it pulls the crowd off topic.
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@rattles: I don't know that we disagree. You have said that divorce isn't an option but that you can't work on a marriage alone. Is that a circumstance in which you would consider divorce?
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Good night...ha! Looks like I'm chiming in on a hot mess.
@looch. Thank you. Marriage is so very personal that there cannot, 100% absolutely cannot be a blanket response. Each individual marriage has its own set of details that simply can't be duplicated. And YES people need to stay the heck out of other peoples marriages/child rearing. Unless there is physical harm, it's not your prob.
@Ree723: I see exactly what you're saying. If someone knows ahead of time that hey, divorce is an option off the bat, they may be less likely to really WORK at their marriage. Not to say every marriage can be fixed, but if you don't believe in your heart that you can, then you're setting yourself up to fail. I believe in that mental state, if you're feeling really beaten up, you may just say 'fine. I'm done' without trying any more. I have had the same experience in running and truly believe it does translate over to other aspects of your life.
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@MsLipGloss: I don't think divorce is an option because I don't think I can break my marriage. Let me clarify - I think there are two sides to my own marriage, one contractual (civil) and one covenantal (church). I could break the former but it's not in my power to break the latter. I assume where we disagree about marriage is that I buy into the whole "what God has joined" stuff.
Plenty of people don't though, and so if viewing marriage as purely a contractual agreement, I can understand why people would view it as over when one party fails to perform.
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@coopsmama: well said! and - you aren't alone on here
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@JoJoGirl: exactly.
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@rattles: I'm not religious, but I don't view marriage as just a contract. I don't understand why God would want his flock to suffer needlessly? And how would you explain to your daughter that she had to stay in a marriage in which she was miserable?
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I have been following this thread and have an honest question. So if a religion says the only way to end a marriage is if there is abuse or adultery, does that make it more likely, that if someone were in an unhappy marriage, to commit these acts just to get out of it? I am not saying either side is wrong or right, just genuinely curious.
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@Lindsay05: fair question that I don't have an answer to!
thanks.
anyways...
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