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@MsLipGloss: As far as I understand it, people who are married in the church can separate and *legally* divorce — that's the contractual part — but the church would still consider them married and wouldn't allow either to re-marry in the church. So *technically* they'd still be married under the covenant — not the law. And could re-marry civilly.
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@Lindsay05: I haven't seen this to be the case. I either see people already we're dealing with these issues and never sought help/accountability and then their marriages were ruined or they just divorce without regard for what the religion/church teaches. Again, this is from a Protestant perspective. There's no official rules for this kind of stuff. And if these things are happening, they're probably not genuinely concerned about being a faithful believer anyway.
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@Lindsay05: According to the bible you can never actually divorce once married, not spiritually anyway. You can get a "legal" divorce, but Jesus said that if you remarry you are committing adultery.
So there isn't really any way out of a marriage for a Christian. Not really anyway. So cheating on your spouse or abusing them as an "excuse" to get divorced seems pretty stupid. God doesn't miss things like that and the bible is clear.
Does this actually happen though? Probably.
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@IRunForFun: This is not the case for Christianity in general. The Catholic Church, yes, but not Protestant denominations.
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@MsLipGloss: I fear we might be veering into one of those, "why does a loving God allow evil?" debates. I don't believe He wants us to "suffer needlessly," nor do I think either path will be pain free. As for my own daughter, after decades of catechesis, I would expect that she'll know my own beliefs and hear my advice or consolation in that context. Most of all, I hope that I will have raised her in such a way that she knows how to come to a decision on her own, and that I will love and support her forever regardless of her decisions.
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@Weagle: Ah, sorry, I was raised Catholic, though don't practice anymore. So that's where my knowledge came from.
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@pui: This is totally off topic, but...
I think this is a gray area. I believe there are cases where remarriage would be allowed, and I think it's something that has to be taken on a case by case basis.
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@MsLipGloss: I can't answer for @rattles but what I learned from the bible it is just as much of a sin to be miserable in your marriage or in potentially better words not make it work. In a Christian marriage the sole purpose is to glorify God, a loveless marriage goes against everything that God wants. Eta: my point being, in God's eyes neither is really acceptable.
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@Weagle: Can you support this with the bible? Jesus was very clear in Luke 16:18.
That said, does God hate divorce? Yes. Does He hate divorced people? Remarried people? of course not. He forgives those sins the same as any other.
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Whew! I haven't read all the responses, but I'm looking forward to doing so!
I don't see it as a black or white issue as there as normally so many other things going on if this topic emerges.
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@pui: I'm going to reply to you on your wall, just because I don't want to derail the thread anymore. It's kind of on topic, but kind of not.
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@pui: Also, it might take me a while because I'm doing it while making a pizza
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@Weagle: Fair enough!
Mmm... pizza.
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@IRunForFun: I think in the Catholic Church, you just need an annulment if you get divorced and then you can get remarried in the church (if your spouse passes, you can get remarried too)
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@pui: There is also passage in the Bible (Matthew) that says if one person wants to walk away from the marriage, then you're not at fault for letting them leave.
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@Dandelion: Can you specify verses?
I would assume if it does say something to that effect that God's views on divorce and remarriage are still the same. I shared earlier the verse where Jesus says a man should divorce his wife unless unfaithfulness is involved, but in the very next verse He says that a remarried person would be committing adultery (Matt 5:31-32).
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@IRunForFun: That's definitely a Catholic stance, and not for most Protestant churches. I was encouraged, (after getting a divorce, and living as a single mom for some time) when I met DH, the church I was in embraced us and wished nothing but love and grace for us and DS. People are allowed to be happy.
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I believe that when you choose to get married, and you choose to bring children into that relationship, it is your responsibility to work hard to work out any issues and avoid a broken family.
I am a child of divorce, and believe my parents didn't work hard enough before throwing in the towel. Unless my husband cheats on or abuses me, I will not do that to my kids. It's not all about my own happiness anymore. When I decided to bring children into our family and into this world, I decided to put their needs first.
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@pui: Sorry, it was 1 Corinthians:
7:15 However, if the one who is not a believer wishes to leave the Christian partner, let it be so. In such cases the Christian partner, whether husband or wife, is free to act. God has called you to live in peace. 16 How can you be sure, Christian wife, that you will not save[b] your husband? Or how can you be sure, Christian husband, that you will not save[c] your wife?
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@Dandelion: Ah, okay Paul's unequally yoked speech.
First, I'd point out that this referring to a marriage between a believer and a non-believer. It doesn't at all apply to two Christian married people.
Paul even says just before (in verse 12) that if the non-Christian person wants to stay married than the Christian person must not divorce him/her. I think this part of scripture is mainly saying that it's not the worst thing ever if the non-believer leaves and stops possibly leading the Christian astray (because a strong relationship with God should always be the centre of one's life). I don't think it changes that that divorce is still a sin.
Lastly, just a few verses previously, Paul makes direct reference to what Jesus has said about divorce. "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." (1 Corinthians 7:10-11)
I want to say again, that this shouldn't change any Christian's actions towards someone who is divorced or remarried. God still loves divorced people, and so should we. All comes down to Romans 3:23.
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@rattles: Would she have been taught during her catechism(s) how to deal with an emotionally manipulative and oppressive spouse? Or how to deal with a spouse who is, while not cruel to her, emotionally manipulative and oppressive to her/their children? Are you prepared to counsel your daughter in such a way as to support the teachings of your church, knowing those circumstances?
@erinpye: what if your spouse does not abuse you or cheat on you, but instead is cruel and unloving toward your children?
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@sarbear: Same. One of the best things my parents ever did was divorce and repartner, and really find happiness. I'd council anyone to divorce (after making a real effort to fix things) rather than to stay together, unhappy. That isn't good for children. My parents were unhappy together and I had a miserable childhood.
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@pui: obviously being a believer is between a person and God. But if a spouse doesn't believe in staying married, abuses or cheats, they're not much a believer. Its easy to be unequally yoked if you think the person has a true heart about it. I did. I married someone who claimed to be Christian, but his actions proved otherwise eventually. After all the misery, once he said he wanted out I left.
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@Dandelion: I do my best to understand scripture and use as a tool in my life, but in the end only God knows everything. I couldn't possibly ever completely understand or judge your previous marriage, you or your ex, especially not to the depth of your hearts as God can. I'm sorry that your ex did those things to you and I can understand your position.
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@MsLipGloss: Well, you must think me naive indeed.
You'll be (pleasantly?) surprised to know that I don't need you to spell out possible reasons for why people divorce. Next, you misread me. I explained that having known me for as long as my daughter will have by then, and having had my views discussed with her over the years, she will know my thoughts on marriage even if they are not her own. Finally, I stated before that she will knowingly have my love and support. I do not think that God and love are ever at odds.If any of this is unclear to you, I'd be happy to carry on this tangential conversation on our walls! I'll note though that I am dubious of how much of this is driven by intellectual curiosity or a search for understanding...
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@MsLipGloss: that's emotional abuse and counts.
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@rattles: I don't think you're naive . . . I don't know enough about you/your background to make that determination (your experience with bad relationships/divorce . . . and because divorce is, in fact, an option for you, if only under self-imposed limited terms). You didn't (directly) answer the questions I asked, but I understand your position on the issue at hand even well enough without those responses.
But as far as your God and love being at odds . . . anyone who has ever read the Bible can point to instances where love is represented, but there are far more instances where hatred and wrath are represented. Orwell called it "doublethink," the ability to hold diametrically-opposed viewpoints as equally valid when necessary, cleaving to one of them until the other is needed, then whirling around like the mayor in The Nightmare Before Christmas to spout the opposing viewpoint as if it were the gospel truth all along. That is exactly the situation here.
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Wow - I was dying of curiosity about why this thread blew up! I've been waiting to read it all day.
In my view, divorce is an option solely because it is something that EXISTS. It's not a unicorn. I don't think that logically knowing I could divorce my husband (the way I know I could sell my house or quit my job) makes me more likely to turn to that solution. Personally I would pour everything I had into fixing my marriage before that point (I can't even honestly say that I have a Zero Tolerance abuse/adultery clause because it would be so out of character for my husband that I can't imagine the situation enough to say how I would potentially feel).
My experience is that marriage is work. It is hard; it is rewarding. It can't be sustained without both partner's efforts. I have seen relationships where divorce was the best thing for them; others where divorce seemed unwarranted (to my narrow, outsiders view); and others where divorce could have happened but the couple took pains to work it out - likely for the kids (my own parents).
A thoughtful, respectful, caring relationship between parents is what I think children deserve & I think divorce can fit into that model.
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Effin a I hit the wrong button and lost everything I wrote!
Ugh.
First, I don't know the caller's background, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't just wake up one day and think "Hmm, I don't love XYZ anymore, I think I'll get a divorce!" Divorce is an expensive hassle (unless you're a celeb, apparently), and hard on the kids. Again, benefit of the doubt, but I choose to believe that she probably did exhaust other options first. It's my opinion that, for whatever reason, marriage is important to most people, and most people take their marriages seriously.
Second, even as the child of a very messy divorce with years-long ramifications, I fully believe divorce is an option. I just think it's the nuclear option. It's the option I would consider only after all over option had been exhausted (barring instances of infidelity and/or abuse).
Third, having nothing to do with the caller's story as told here, I will also say that sometimes there's just nothing you can do. My stepbrother and his wife were (still are, technically) married for 10 years, and have two daughters. They're marriage was never perfect, but SIL was devoted to him and it. She isn't particularly religious, just very fervently believed in her wedding vows and that marriage was meant to be forever. He was a total douchecanoe who emotionally and, to an extent verbally, abused her, but she put up with it and constantly tried to be the best wife she could be to him.
Then one day he told her that he no longer wanted their life together, that he wanted to be a divorce (a day, I should note, which also happened to be her birthday, and also Mother's Day, and also her college graduation party where all of her family flew in to celebrate the ten years it took her to earn her degree--I've disowned him now, btw).
She begged him to reconsider. She dragged him to couple's therapy. He went to two sessions--and didn't say a word, neither to her nor to the therapist. The therapist told her privately that it would be very hard to save a marriage when the other person so clearly had zero interest in helping or being helped. Two weeks later he convinced his boss to transfer him to an office across the country, packed his bags and left.
Anyway, maybe the caller was like my stepbrother, I dunno. But point is, even if you think divorce isn't an option sometimes you don't have a choice. She could continue acting like a dog...coming back with pleading eyes no matter how many times he (metaphorically) kicked her away, she could refuse to sign the divorce papers (their divorce is still in the works), but she didn't want to be that role model for her girls. So she dried her tears and moved on with her life.
(I'm about as close to an atheist as you can get, so I won't touch the religious marriage part. I understand it, but that determination to stay regardless of the costs or the situation isn't something that I will ever have experience with.)
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@JoyfulKiwi: Wait onnnne minute....what's that you said about unicorns not existing?!
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@Lindsay05: in the Catholic Church, there are more things than abuse than can nullify a marriage. For example, if one person does not want children, that is actually a really straightforward case for annulment. Also, refusal to change or grow with your spouse. I know someone who had this reason used in their annulment, because it basicay proves that the relationship was unequally committed to.
So, to answer your question, I dint think so, but then again, I don't believe abuse or adultery are the only reasons for divorce, so take that for what it is worth
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This thread has gone a little crazy
But, I feel like I've learned a lot about other's perspectives as I've worked my way through.I feel like everyone's marriage is their own and I think it is important to discuss with your partner what you expect from your marriage. Your decision to divorce or not to divorce is yours and yours alone, and if you are a person in my life that I love, I will support you in whatever you choose to do.
For me, divorce really isn't an option, except in a case of repeated adultery. But, I know I didn't marry an abusive man, and I know that I was careful and intentional in making my decisions. When we got married, we agreed on our divorce stance, as of now, we agree on our stance, but obviously, if he changes his mind someday I can't make him stay. This belief is not based on religious beliefs.
Growing up, my parents fought sometimes, they didn't always get along. But, at the end of the day, they fought for each other. I always knew that they loved each other. They had bad times, ok times, and great times. I can tell you that my mom was crushed when we lost my dad unexpectedly.
My mom told me once, that no matter who you are married to, they are going to do things that make you crazy. You're probably better off staying with the one your with, because you've figured out how to live with some of their issues
My beliefs about my marriage don't make me naive. I have seen bad relationships, and I've seen that when a relationship hits a rough patch, and both partners are committed to making it work, happiness can be found again. For me, if I find myself in a loveless marriage, I know that I will need to look in the mirror first.
Also, I would just like to say that as a teacher I have seen lots of children of divorce. Some families do a great job of co-parenting, others don't. Generally speaking, I think those same families would or would not have been successful parents if they had stayed together...if that makes sense?
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Erm, I mean.....I saw a unicorn in my yard just yesterday, @CupQuakeWalk: !
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@MsLipGloss: From a purely secular standpoint, the "doublethink" is also explained by different authors/cultures/time periods. I am atheist, but there are certainly ways to deal with the discrepancies that don't involve turning a completely blind eye to them. Actually, I am often quite fascinated by and have admiration for theological discourses that deal head-on with those sorts of seeming contradictions. Many of them are wonderful.
As for divorce, clearly I think it is acceptable since I am. In my personal situation, I think everyone is much better off for it. And, yes, there was abuse involved, but I don't know that that is the only "good" or "acceptable" reason for divorce. As with pretty much everything in life, I feel that each person is more than entitled to the opinion that they feel fits them, personally. A mile in someone else's moccasins and all that jazz.
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@owlteach: do you think wives with abusive partners married them knowing they were abusive? That they weren't 'careful and intentional'? It's often men no one would ever guess would do such a thing. I hope you are right, but I don't think anyone should ever assume they know what someone is capable of. If it were so easy to predict, most women wouldn't choose to marry abusers, or unfaithful men, no one starts a marriage thinking their partner is going to hurt them physically or emotionally, but it happens. Your marriage should be what you want and I take no issues with your stance on what marriage is for you, but the wording used regarding abuse almost makes it sound like you believe woman who marry men who later abuse are at fault for not choosing as well
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@oscarthegoon: Totally agree!
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I don't know who this Dr. Laura is, never heard of her. Regardless of my opinion on divorce, I think that her response was rude.
This has always been a hard one for me. I disagree with divorce unless you or your child are in a dangerous situation.
My husband and I discussed this at length before we got married (and we have a long history together to boot). We agree it's not an option for us, but we are also in a very healthy and loving relationship. We are truly best friends. If it hasn't changed yet in the 12 years it took us to get married, not sure why it would change now.
All of that being said, I was in an awful relationship before DH and I got back together (we had a 3 year hiatus) and we almost got married. Had we gone through with it, I always think about how miserable Id be right now and that I'd want a divorce.BUT, I think that my stance against divorce is what made me NOT marry the guy. I think that if you go into a marriage thinking "if it doesn't work I'll just get a divorce" (which I have heard people say) you are much less careful about getting married in the first place. If you feel it's not an option, you are more selective about who you marry.
Of course I'm not talking about the people who transform into monsters after getting married, but that's not the majority of divorce.I'm not saying you have to date someone for a decade to know if they're the right person either. My parents only knew each other a few months when they got married, but they had strong convictions against divorce. They definitely had some hard times and I remember some awful fights that some might consider reason for divorce. But they were both committed and got through the rough stuff and have a very happy relationship that had gotten better and better with the years. They are also deeply rooted in their faith, which I know has helped.
All that being said I don't look down on people that get divorced. All any of us can do is live out our own beliefs.
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This might be the unpopular option, but I say 'no' to divorce unless its for abuse reasons. However, that's just in our marriage - we have strong beliefs about this.
Coming from a divorced family, though - I agree that in some cases, divorce was the best thing that could have happened. -
@mrs. bird: at the risk of getting off topic, I actually do think many women marry abusers knowing they are abusers (or cheaters) A lot of complex psychological crap going on so it may not make sense to many of us! It's troubling to consider.
ETA definitely not saying this is the case for everyone! But I don't think it's correct to say that no one enters a marriage knowing their partner could hurt them. Denial seems to have a big role in abusive relationships!
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@mamimami: i think *most* woman would choose not to marry someone they know will be unfaithful or abusive, but i agree that many are aware of those tendencies prior to marriage. mental health issues often present during one's 20s, so someone might marry their partner at 22, then a few years later, the partner could start showing signs of mental instability, start mistreating their spouse or develop a substance abuse problem that brings out the worst in them, leading them to mistreat. people go through things and develop PTSD and it can lead them to do things they aren't even fully aware of. people have head injuries and can develop entirely new personalities and dispositions where all the sudden they're hurtful. i'm not suggesting everyone with an abusive or unfaithful partner is blindsided, but many are. the idea that anyone is so wise in their selection that they are exempt from ever being in such situations could be hurtful to those who thought they were making the best choice when they were choosing to marry.
then again, i acknowledge that i would not divorce for reasons of abuse unless they were taking place repeatedly in front of children. i gave my life to my husband, i can only hope he makes good choices with it, but there is no guarantee of that, i am not omniscient. that stance is not for most people, and i would have a hard time supporting anyone else with it, but i feel strongly about it for myself.
my point is more that no one is too educated, wise, or wealthy to be abused. people who are careful and intentional can be abused, too, and the statement that one is exempt because of their selection makes the comparison to others who are with someone that has abused and alludes to the idea that they should have been more careful and intentional if they didn't want to be abused, thus blaming the victim. i don't think PP intended it to sound that way, but i wanted to point it how the language used could sound that way.
But, I feel like I've learned a lot about other's perspectives as I've worked my way through.
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