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Just skimmed this whole thread. Entertaining!

Personally, I'm not religious. And to me, things like marriage and divorce and religion are all social constructs--ie. not necessary except for societal reasons but comforting to cling to a certain tradition, all the same.

This is the same way I view Santa and the Easter Bunny. Do I believe in them? nope. Are they necessary? No. Will I play out the tradition and reenact all the social rituals sometimes anyway? yup!

Divorce is the same for me. I have morals, just not morals dictated by a particular religion. So theology is totally unimportant--I'm more concerned with the humanist perspective. What is the best for all parties involved? Is there something that can be fixed? Can the relationship be salvaged? Is it best for both people to separate?

Obviously, the answer would be different in each case.

@mrs. bird: I will do my best to clarify my comments, and truly hope that you understand the intent of what I am trying to say. I went back and forth on responding, because I wasn't sure that I could properly or fully communicate what is in my brain and I know how easy it is to misinterpret someone's written words.

I do not know, and will never pretend to know, what is going on in someone else's relationship.

All I can speak to is my relationship and my experiences. My experiences tell me that I am a very good judge of character, and that who people are at their core doesn't change. I was with my husband for a long time before we got engaged and were married. I was SURE that I knew HIM and that I could commit to the type of marital relationship that WE wanted.

Others commit to marital relationships on a different level, and that is fine with me. The choices that others make in their marriages are their own to make, as I stated in my original comment.

Sometime people make mistakes about who they choose. We all make mistakes daily. Sometimes those mistakes lead to broken hearts, and a few years of your life. Other times those mistakes lead to abuse. Let me be clear NO mistake deserves physical or emotional abuse as a consequence. No human deserves to be treated that way and there are no excuses for treating another person that way. A mistake doesn't mean that we knew what the end result was going to be and did it anyway. It means that a choice we made resulted in a less than desirable, or horrible consequence. It gives no one the right to inflict harm on another human being.

I don't have a great add-on here, just damn!!! Can't imagine what's in 5 pages of discussion on divorce - gives me headache thinking about reading it all. I always believe in fighting to save your relationship, and do believe some people take both getting married and divorced too lightly, but every situation is so incredibly different. I couldn't even begin to type up a standard response on my feelings on divorce, it's a very personal and circumstantial decision like are many things in life.

@mrs. bird: Good post.

@Mrs. Polish: Word!

I havent read though all the posts.
I believe that these days we are way too quick to pull the unhappy card and get divorced. I think a marriage like any other relationship takes work. I wont ask you to stay in an unhappy marriage. All I ask for is that you at least try to fix it before giving up on it. Divorce should be a last resort rather than the first thing to that comes to your mind when things arent peachy

@Mrs. Polish: I agree. In the end, it's between them and God. Only He knows the state of every heart.

I in no way judge people who have had divorces or are remarried (my own mother has been married 3 times, almost completely out of her own control). I've never been divorced, but it isn't inconceivable that it could happen to me.

I firmly believe that Jesus loves every soul and that we are called to do the same. It's a fundamental part of being Christian.

I don't think pointing out what the Bible says on a subject is judging (especially since this whole line of conversation started because someone asked about it pages ago). I simply think it is important to know what the Bible actually says about these things. Not liking what it says isn't a good reason to pretend it isn't written clearly.

@pui: I didn't mean to imply that citing verses equals judgment, but I think once a single line is taken out without context it can be twisted to fit certain adgendas. That's why it makes me feel uncomfortable. I wouldn't say we shouldn't judge people and then judge you. I think my point would have been better organized if I had started a new paragraph.

@prettylizy: *return long distance virtual high five*.

I haven't read through all the posts at all. But I can just say from my own personal experience that the divorces I have seen go down among my own social circle were, could have, and/or should have been predicted before the marriage even happened. The problems that caused the divorces ALL existed in some sort of noticeable fashion before the marriage occurred. Sucks for those guys and girls. Having grown up with divorced parents, I can say that I don't like it and its sucks for kids.

@looch: Wow okay that is a HUGE question lol. I could try and answer it as simply as possible, but it's probably better suited to wall posts!

@pui: I would also be interested in reading responses to @looch: 's question!

I'm still following the thread, so whenever @coopsmama: and @pui: get to it, I'll be sure to read it.

@Mrs. Lemon-Lime: That question calls for quite a bit of speculation! My parents have always remained friendly so I imagine that I would have had a fine childhood if they stayed together. But they really should have never gotten married as their differences were glaringly obvious and quite silly. But if they could have compromised somehow on one issue, then they could have stayed together and that could have been just fine for them, too. But life happens as it does and I'm more than happy with my life. But divorce still sucks for kids for obvious reasons.

@pui: could it be summed up with "love the sinner, hate the sin"?

@Anagram: Yes, yes, and yes! I'm the product of a generally unhappy marriage. I believe that my parents loved each other, but I also suspect that they stayed married because of co-dependence and their fears that it would somehow hurt me.
Long story on many fronts, but I guarantee you that it would have been better if they divorced.
So yes, I believe in divorce. But yes, I believe that it's different for everyone.
Dr. Laura ain't my fave.

@looch: @mrs. bird: @Mrs. Lemon-Lime:

That question, as @Pui said, is a complicated one. I’ll do my best to concisely share the theology addressing it and also some of the implications of that theology.

I think, first of all, it’s important to note that I personally believe that: God is the creator of all things, and we as the creation have ALL sinned against God and His laws. Thus, we ALL after death are bound for Hell without His grace and mercy through Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death on the Cross and His subsequent resurrection. His resurrection proved that He held power over death. I think that because of Christ’s sacrifice, we can choose to believe on His name alone as our salvation from sin and death and we can be saved and come into relationship with God. As @Pui said – we are forgiven for our sins!

I believe that God created us to glorify Him and to be in relationship with Him. That is our purpose! I know, personally, that when I sin I find myself distancing from God. I do not have as good of a relationship with Him as I could. Of course, He forgives me, but that doesn’t change the fact that I have driven a wedge in our relationship that needs to be repaired! I attempt (and fail... all.the.time!) to lead a sin-free life because I want to remain close to God and I also view obeying His word as an act of thankfulness for His gift of salvation from death.

On a practical level, as a Christian, I don’t think it makes much sense to believe in God and believe in His salvation and ignore what He says in the Bible. If God is a perfect and holy God, then why should I assume that I as His creation know more than He does for my life? If God is a loving God who would send His Son to die for ME – a sinner! -, then why would I assume that He wouldn’t want the very best for me?

I believe that, though bad things do still happen because we live in a sinful world with sinful people, God has given us the Bible as a guide to navigating through life. I think that includes His principles on marriage and divorce. For example, my husband and I were virgins when we married. It was VERY hard to save our sexual relationships for after marriage because we were in love and very attracted to each other. We felt it was important to save that for after marriage because of God’s principle in the Bible – that sex is for marriage alone.

Had we had sex before getting married, God would have forgiven us. But we would have disobeyed His word and there would have been consequences just exactly like there are for any sin.

We all know that there are far-reaching consequences to divorce and that divorce doesn’t just affect those that were in the marriage. Divorce is usually ugly – no doubt about that. And yes, God forgives those who divorce just as He forgives for any other sin. But that doesn’t change the fact that that was not God’s original intent for marriage or the fact that He hates divorce (Malachi 2:16).

So the problem isn’t that one who is involved in a divorce isn’t forgiven! They absolutely are. The problem is that it separates them from God as it harms their relationship with Him and it has lasting consequences that God wants to keep us all from.

I hope that answered your question. I’m sorry I couldn’t be more brief. It’s a huge topic. If you have any more questions as to my beliefs – feel free to ask. I think this has been an incredibly fascinating thread and I’ve enjoyed reading all of the diverse perspectives.

Thanks for taking the time to write back and formulate a response to my question. I don't know if the next few things I am going to write will offend, but I think it's important for everyone to know where I am coming from.

For me, at the end of the day, the Bible is a work of fiction, it may at some point have been derived from some events, but I do not look at it as a manual on how to live a modern life. This primarily stems from the fact that the Bible is full of antiquated rules, such as not wearing clothing of mixed fibers and separating menstruating women from society. It doesn't logically compute for me when people pick and choose the aspects that they want to belive in or suit them, it's either all or none for me.

If God hates divorce, that's certainly his right, he can hate the act, he can hate the people that participate in it, whatever suits him. But, to simply say that it's okay to hate the act but forgive the people that participate in it, well, I can't accept that logically. The act doesn't exist without particpants, and that is where I just can not separate the two. I hope that is clear enough!

@coopsmama: haha, I can't be converted, so don't worry about that!

Thanks for the clarification, I didn't realize there was a formal "break" from the rules of the Old Testament.