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@MsMamaBear: It's not disdain for the poor. It's disdain for thievery. The fact that the thieves are (presumably) poor is immaterial.
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@nana87: good point, I'm pretty certain there are plenty of Walmart employees on food stamps.
Not everything is black and white. Is stealing as a general rule wrong? Of course. But the particular situations matter. For example, we have different levels of criminal offenses. If you kill someone in self defense, we don't automatically say, "well, you killed someone so lethal injection for you." Intentions matter. If someone who regularly has to look their hungry child in the eye and say, "I'm sorry but I have no food for you," took this glitch as an opportunity to not have to worry about that for a month or however long, I'm not willing to condemn them. Obviously we need to make changes as a society to ensure that people don't get that desperate over food. This should be a wake up call. Am I saying that not one of those people were just taking advantage because they could? No. But I don't see a way to separate those people out from the ones who are truly suffering.
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I'm sorry, but I really find it hard to believe that the only thing that drove these people to fill their carts to the brim with stuff was because they were all just so hungry and desperate on the benefits they already receive. I think most of those people were selfishly taking advantage of a glitch because they knew they could get away with it. Maybe I've just seen so many people screw over the system first hand that I'm cynical.
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@pui: I agree... For every 1 person that did it out of actual need, there are 99 who did it out of greed.
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Lets out this in perspective...if your debit card suddenly would swipe but not charge your account, would you buy a bunch? No, probably not.
So think about what kind of situation you would have to be in to do that. Maybe in one where you get less than 1.40 a meal. Sure, sure it's not supposed to cover everything, but you are just working a minimum wage job, you have three kids and your ex husband doesn't pay child support, and your daycare and rent costs take up most of your salary. Course then there is shoes and clothes to buy your kids, and your car needs a new transmission. So you make your food stamp money cover your entire food budget.
Plus on November 1 you are losing $8 per person per month in food stamp benefits due to a nationwide cut. Your social worker has told you that in the version of the Farm Bill the house passed, you would lose your food stamps altogether. That means your kids would also lose their free school lunches.
You keep hearing about how this debt ceiling crisis could spark another recession. That worries you because you lost your job in the last recession and just started working again six months ago.
You have the chance to stock up food you need for the next few months in case you lose your job or your food stamps.
You get judged all the time for using food stamps. Last week, you had a screaming kid in your cart and put in a box of hamburger helper and a box not Oreos. You watched people glare at you and say stuff like "only healthy food should be allowed" as you checked out. No matter that hamburger helper was the cheapest meal you could find and you promised your daughter Oreos if she got an A on her spelling test.
Wal-Mart had procedures to follow in case of a glitch and they did not. Maybe their cashiers weren't told of the procedures.
You will probably be prosecuted for food stamp fraud and lose your benefits. Your children might lose theirs too. People across the countr will use this as a rallying cry for why we should cut food stamp benefits, even though it has an incredibly low fraud rate.
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I wonder how many people had the intention to resell the items for cash.
I am so torn on the whole thing. I think so much of it comes from not having anything and suddenly being able to have 25 jars of peanut butter, not having to worry if your food stamps are going to run out because of the government shut down.
I can't say what I would do, I have never been there nor have I had to see my son go to bed hungry week after week.
eta: You took the words right off my keyboard, girlfriend.
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@jedeve: exactly. Thank you.
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@jedeve: I fully support the food stamp program, and think that it's wonderful that it's been expanded so much during the Great Recession! At the same time, I also think that families should have to pay back any fraud committed on their cards. The payment plan could be very generous and gradual, but I do think there needs to be some level of accountability.
I've worked in poverty alleviation before, and I've noticed that systems that alleviate poverty while also having strong accountability get support from a broad spectrum of society. I think support for social programs is critical, and that rare incidents like this need to be managed carefully to maintain broad support for important programs like these.
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@jedeve: this is I how I feel about the judgement cast on the people who are "abusing the system." I don't pretend to know their situation and what it feels like for them. The people in this story are essentially my neighbors. You can't judge every individual because you "just know" they all stocked up on perishable items and junk food. Because you know they aren't reasonable or experienced enough to stock up on hurricane and emergency supplies. because a city wide power outage also causes ebt machines to go down and im sure no one in Louisiana has experienced that.
I'm not trying to justify their stealing cart loads of food but I do have compassion and understanding. I do feel it's fair to hold their benefits balance until what they spent is paid off. But honestly I could not care less what a HUGE hardship this is for walmart. And them asking to be repaid by the individuals or the taxpayers is ridiculous.
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Am I missing where in the article that it mentions that Wal-Mart is even asking to be paid back? They acknowledged that this incident will have very little effect on their bottom line and that was their only statement. So who cares how they chose to handle it... they aren't asking anyone else to shoulder the burden as far as I can tell.
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@MamaMoose: I was referring to the suggestion: @mrbee I think Wal-Mart should eat the losses, but be allowed to recover the funds from the people who stole it. And those people should either agree to pay the money back (on a payment plan) or face some sort of penalty for what they did.
And other less specific but similar comments.
I don't have the inside scoop on what Walmart's plans will be. -
@Fronkinzankinsbride: Yikes, didn't meant to be ridiculous... was just sharing my personal opinion.
I will bow out of this thread for now...
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I think there is some confusion about who *lost* due to the theft . . . the money stolen was government money--paid for by taxes and such-- from a government program. Sure Wal-Mart lost inventory, but in any transaction involving food stamps, Wal-Mart is reimbursed by the government. So the abusers would be repaying the same program from which they stole.
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@mrbee: You were anything but ridiculous.
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@mrbee:
you're not ridiculous. Walmart would be. At least in my opinion. And in other cases (a locally owned store perhaps) I wouldn't disagree with you.
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@Fronkinzankinsbride: Stealing is stealing. Regardless. They knowingly abused the system. Why is it ridiculous for them to pay back?
@MsLipGloss: Exactly!
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Well, Walmart is blaming Xerox, who is blaming Walmart, so maybe they'll sort it out between themeselves? Who knows.
Also, regarding being paid back by the people who took the food, I think Walmart is better off writing that off than having to administer a program to collect.
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@MsLipGloss: I don't think that Walmart will be able to bill the government for the excess purchases since they were in violation of their contractual agreement as a store that accepts SNAP. The article says that Walmart will eat the costs, which in the grand scheme are very minor for them.
Really, as a whole, SNAP is great for businesses. It allows people who would not otherwise be able to purchase food to do so. For every dollar spent through SNAP, it generates $1.70 in the economy. So Walmart, and you and I as taxpayers, benefit FAR more than we are hurt. Especially since taxpayers won't have to foot the bill here.
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@MsLipGloss: which is why I said I did find it to be fair for food stamps to be withheld until the balance is evened back out. I'm talking about the inventory loss/anything the glitch did not automatically pay out. I'm not sure if I'm explaining right.
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So okay...say that someone didn't know the system was allowing this and wasn't sure how much was on their card. They accidentally went over by a small amount of money. I'm wondering if this person is also considered a criminal, due to negligence? I'm just curious. Because I don't know the details of every person who walked out of that store.
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I don't know how I feel about this.
Yes, the people were taking advantage of the system. I don't know what I would have done if I was in their situation. I'd like to think I would be honest and not take advantage.
A lot of people said stealing is stealing. And that's true. But people take advantage of systems all the time. Is that ok? No, but people do it. When tax time rolls around, do you pay your state tax (if you have one) for purchases made online that don't include tax? You are supposed to, but next to no one does. Is that stealing too?
This reminds me of the glitch at the airline that was selling tickets for $10 that decided to honor them. I know it is different because this is government funds and not a private company, but I can see similarities.
I'm not sure if any of that made sense, just random thoughts. I'll just think of it as Wal-Mart donating a whole bunch of food to people in situations in which they need food-stamps.
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@MsLipGloss: I was under the impression that walmart was not getting reimbursed from the government. So if someone had $50 on their card and they bought $1000 worth of stuff, Walmart only gets the $50. Am I wrong? Or am I totally not getting what you said.
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@Fronkinzankinsbride: There are photos of them loading several carts full of food per person. They didn't accidentally go over by a dollar or two, they went on a shopping spree and once they heard the system was back up they abandoned their carts and left the store
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@TemperanceBrennan: The difference here is it wasn't Walmart's glitch, it was the Government's glitch.
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I thought it was Xerox's glitch..seems a back up generator failed while they were doing a test.
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@looch: I don't know what Xerox is, but I'm assuming it's a company the Government contracts out to to run this system?
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@Mrsbells: I was asking a hypothetical question. I have no doubt that that happened. But presumably more than a few people were shopping at a Walmart when this occurred.
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@pui: I understand that it isn't the same situation, but WalMart was the only company that accepted the cards.
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@TemperanceBrennan: So...?
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@mrskc: @Fronkinzankinsbride: @jedeve: I understand that Wal-Mart was left holding the overage bag. I am not concerned with whether Wal-Mart will recover anything (I think @MamaMoose: has that one all locked up). My only point was that the money trail seems to have been forgotten in many analyses (and my version was incredibly watered down).
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@MsLipGloss: The money didn't deduct from an account with government funds or from a set SNAP account. The cards weren't working at all, so stores were supposed to do paper transactions with a $50 limit. Walmart didn't do that. So they ran the cards, they didn't charge any bank account or fund. The losses are just Walmart's, not my money appropriated to SNAP.
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@jedeve: We're missing each other on this one.
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@pui: so... the losses to Wal-Mart were avoidable.
*edited based on looch's comment.
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The glitch wasn't avoidable, a back up generator failed during a test.
Walmart didn't use the correct disaster recovery/back up plan.
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@pui: I'm not disagreeing there. Of course stealing is stealing. I just don't feel the same rage over this situation that others on this thread do. I see a deeper issue and feel bad for the people in those situations/life circumstances.
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@TemperanceBrennan: "the losses to Walmart were avoidable" <--- Yup.
The system obviously failed to work how it's supposed to. But as far as I'm aware, Walmart is the only store that had this problem, despite the fact that numerous states were affected by the glitch. Clearly, Walmart made a big mistake. Otherwise this would have happened to every store and not just Walmart. The state has also already clarified that taxpayers will not be paying for this. Walmart made a mistake, and in all likelihood they will be the ones paying for it.
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@kiddosc: It's funny, I actually worked for a prosecuted for years. So yes, I believe in people being punished for committing crimes. All I said in my post above was that I feel bad for the people in these situations. And I genuinely do.
I think my work experience has also shown me how the harsh prosecution of low income people can actually make things worse. -
@MsLipGloss: I mean in general with a few people making it an across the board "rule" (few bad apples meaning all welfare recipients are on drugs, abusing their "entitlements" etc.). Not counting this story as it is stealing, like I said. Never excused stealing.
you're not ridiculous. Walmart would be. At least in my opinion. And in other cases (a locally owned store perhaps) I wouldn't disagree with you.
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