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@looch: I am not sure, but I would say doubtful. They are extremely self-sufficient and I doubt they would feel comfortable giving that up to then have, likely the government, be in charge of providing their food. Plus, the quality of the food would probably drastically go down. I don't hunt for my own food, but even if I did, I would mot make that trade.
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@ALV91711: that was my next point but my nursing session had cometo an end
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@Eko: then what trade would you make?
I think both sides need to be open to compromise. i agree with you that mass violence will happen with or without guns, but doing nothing is no longer an option.
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@looch: I would trade making it a bigger pain in the ass to get a gun (if I actually needed one) so we could have more scrutinized security and background checks.
I completely agree that something should be done. I guess I am arguing that taking guns completely away isn't really the right answer. I think it just seems like the simplest solution.
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@Eko: I think any solution that proposes taking away something without offering something else in return is destined to fail...it's not exclusive to the gun conversation.
I understand that you can't take away the source of someone's food without giving something else in return, I wouldn't accept that either. I do think though, that we need a classification system and only then can we really enact meaningful policy.
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I'm all for gun control. I don't think banning guns altogether is realistic, but I do think there should be stricter laws in place to make access to guns much more difficult and I also think there are certain guns that have no place among the general public. I don't agree with the current interpretation of the Second Amendment and this article pretty much sums up my feelings on it:
ETA: I also don't agree with the whole "criminals will find a way to get their hands on guns so what's the point of tightening the laws?" logic. Well if that's the case why have laws at all? Let's just get rid of the criminal justice system entirely.
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@lawbee11: if you read the federalist papers it's pretty clear they mean for individuals to be able to be armed so they can form militias. In james Madisons #46 he says that pretty much every country doesn't trust their citizens with guns but the U.S. does and it will work to the advantage of the country to have more protection in increased numbers if they need to form a militia than a standing army would provide.
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@lawbee11: Yeah, good thing we haven't decided all laws need 100 percent compliance to be worthy....anarchy for everyone!
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Just saw the president give an update about Orlando. It was interesting that he kept blasting Trump without mentioning his name.
I felt like so many of his points were spot on. More people need to speak out against Trump's scary ideas.
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@winter_wonder: Hilary did the same thing in a stump speech the other day. Trump's rhetoric is irresponsible.
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Just something else that was posted to FB that I thought might be interesting to share. This is not my post and I have not "fact-checked".
The Executive Branch of our government is responsible for overseeing the FBI. When you go to purchase a gun, you are subject to an FBI background check. When they run you through the FBI background system, three things can happen. One, you are immediately approved to purchase the firearm. Two, they can put you on "Delay" or "Hold," and you can either wait a few days and/or call the FBI and find out what the issue is, or Three, you are denied to purchase the firearm.
The shooter in Orlando had been interviewed by the FBI twice & they knew he had connections to radical Islam & the shooter himself claimed ties to ISIS. Why was he not delayed or denied when attempting to purchase a firearm? I myself have been delayed and I've never committed a crime. Others in my family have also. It's just something we know might happen. It's GUN CONTROL. It's a reasonable restriction on our 2nd Amendment Rights for the good of the whole. We, as responsible gun owners, get that. It's frustrating because we know we haven't done anything to violate the law or deserve to have to wait to make our purchase. But we understand.
I have hundreds of gun trust clients who wait over 6 months to obtain highly regulated firearms & pay an additional $200 tax in addition to the cost of their pre-paid firearm before they can possess it. Meanwhile, the ATF is scrutinizing their backgrounds. Again, we get it. We think it stinks. But we get it. It is GUN CONTROL.
We already have GUN CONTROL. Unless additional facts come out that I haven't heard yet, our very own FBI, overseen by our very own president, responsible for enforcing our EXISTING gun control laws, completely failed us. All they had to do was flag this man in their very own background check system. That's it. Instead, he was allowed to purchase the firearms & murder 50 people.
Also-I hear all this talk about the AR-15 and how terrible of a gun it is. "No one needs an assault rifle." First of all, in my experience working with gun owners, and I have a lot, the main reasons people buy AR-15s is because 1) They're cheap; 2) They're versatile (literally like Legos the way you can interchange the pieces); 3) They're lightweight; and 4) They're scared the government is going to outlaw them because the general public has so many misconceptions about them. Better get one before they take away our right to have one.
I will admit, an AR-15 at 1st glance looks a little more scary that my grandpa's old rifle. It looks more like a military gun. But, folks, beyond that, pretty much all misconceptions fly out the window. My 16 year-old son used an AR-15 to shoot his 1st 2 deer. He felt it had more accuracy for him because it was so lightweight. So they ARE used for traditional hunting purposes.
Something my husband taught me about ammunition that is highly relevant...A .223.556 round from an AR-15 is a similar projectile to a .22 Long Rifle projectile (traditional plinking round -would kill a deer if you hit it in the brain or it ricocheted internally/hit vital organs). A more traditional round typically used to kill a deer would be in .30 caliber range - I.e. a 30-30, 30-06, 308, etc. These are bigger (see photo). None of these rounds fit into an unmodified AR-15.
So people are proposing outlawing a non-modified AR-15 that shoots only the second smallest round on the photo here only because it "looks scary." The larger rounds are shot by larger traditional hunting rifles. Potential to do much more damage, but don't look so scary on the outside. Logical?
Now, shooters in these terrible mass shootings MAY be using high-capacity magazines in their AR-15s (I haven't looked at data on that). Most states have set limits on maximum capacities. If a magazine exceeds allowed capacity, it's illegal to use and, again, already covered by existing GUN CONTROL laws.
In the horrendous Orlando case, the shooter also had a 9mm hand gun which he used to kill many victims (just listened to terrible interview on CNN of one man who was shot twice with the hand gun & had several others around him killed before his eyes). So how would outlawing an AR-15 have saved their lives? Outlawing a particular type of firearm (except for fully automatic weapons obviously which are extremely rare & VERY difficult to obtain) is not going to stop this.
In this case, I'm hoping we get more details saying this shooter WAS on the FBI delay list. Otherwise, folks, if our own government can't even enforce its own gun control laws in such an obvious case, how in the world can we trust them to effectively implement & enforce more?
The bottom line is this man was full of hate and determined to kill. If he couldn't have purchased a gun, he likely would have borrowed or stolen one or come up with some other destructive device. Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun at all. 9/11--box cutters & planes. You can't stop this level of hate. God gave us each a free will. Some of us choose love and some of us choose to follow the evil one. No amount of gun control in the world was going to stop this man from implementing hatred and destruction. In such a tragedy, we want to blame someone or something. We are outraged. We want to pass a law that we are certain will stop the madness. But that will never happen. Because the hate and the madness are engrained in those who choose to follow the evil one-Satan, whatever name you use, instead of following God and, in my set of beliefs, Jesus. It all starts within our hearts.
If you are going to bring up the issue of gun control and advocate for more of it, I am asking you to get educated first. Learn about firearms. Learn about ammunition. Get to know what the existing laws are and how they're enforced. Make sure you are educated on the topic. You might just be surprised about how much gun control there really is already and how eager responsible gun owners are to comply.
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A friend of a friend apparently shared this website to 'enlighten' us about the AR-15. It's still rather biased.
I don't understand why you need something like this to hunt deer. http://www.assaultweapon.info/
I still stand by my opinion that the AR-15 does not need to be in civilian hands.
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@T.H.O.U.: the bar is set very high to be denied gun purchases. For mental issues a judge has to declare someone mentally unfit, which rarely happens. For criminal issues actual criminal activity has to occur - while the guy said ridiculous and hateful things when the FBI investigated there was no connection he had to anyone, he still doesn't. So the cases were closed and he could purchase a gun. That's how the system is set up. If someone makes a claim against you and nothing is found it doesn't mean you continue to be found guilty, that makes no sense. If everyone who made any kind of hate speech couldn't purchase a gun we'd have a lot less gun purchases, but that is also not how the country works with freedom of speech so that's not how background checks work.
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@T.H.O.U.: One thing that bothers me about that post -- it assumes that advocates of gun control are ignorant and pushes them to be more educated, yet the writer is throwing out information admittedly without looking into it. The high-capacity magazine comment is just one example. At least half of mass shooters have used high-capacity magazines, including the one in Orlando, and they're legal in most states. Also, there are loopholes that are problematic -- for example, background checks aren't required for private sales. I don't know what type of firearm this person was buying that they had to wait six months for (I wish they had specified) but in Florida, for example, there is no waiting period to buy an AR-15. You can then purchase a magazine that holds 50 rounds for a pretty inconsequential amount of money.
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@T.H.O.U.: It bothers me when people go on about gun control already existing. There is still a need for stronger federal gun legislation. Doesn't matter how strict a state's gun laws are if the neighbouring state has lax gun laws.
When people start defending gun rights after tragedies like Orlando and Sandy Hook, it only tells me that they care more about protecting their 2nd amendment rights than themselves and their families from future mass shootings.
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We have several firearms. All secured in locked safes. Guns are part of the culture where I live- the 4- H club I volunteer for has several different shooting projects- from archery to shotguns. All that said I'm not opposed to gun control at all. I would not even be upset if firearms were outlawed completely. My husband and I talk circles around this issue- mass shootings are horrifying. I know people that have assault rifles and that scares me. Just because you pass a background check does not mean you are a 'good' candidate to own a gun. I don't know what the answer is but it's complicated and will never be unanimous.
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Ugh, having an FB argument about why the banning of the AK-15 is not the solution. Do pro-gun defenders really think guns are exempt from this problem? It's so sad. Yes, this problem we are having is complicated (mental health, terrorism, gun control). Do we just sit here and do nothing and just point fingers?
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So here's something to think about....I live in CO which until Orlando happened, held the "title" of biggest mass murder in the US for the Aurora theater shooting and before that--Columbine High School in 1999.
Colorado passed "stricter" gun laws--high capacity magazines have been outlawed--you can no longer purchase a magazine that holds more than 15 rounds are illegal. Also, we now have to have and pass background checks on ALL firearm purchases, including private party transfers. And guess what--it doesn't really matter. There are still shootings in CO everyday. Guess what else there are? Stabbings, stabbings are a daily occurrence....but we don't outlaw knives.
My husband and I have multiple firearms--enough that the vast majority of you (collective posters on this forum) would probably have a heart attack. Yes we even own a couple of the big scary black guns also known as AR-15's. My husband uses them for coyote hunting because of their level of accuracy. He would use them deer or antelope hunting as well if CO law allowed it. We each also have our Concealed Carry Permits and own handguns as well, but that doesn't mean we carry a concealed firearm at all times. One of the biggest reasons we have them is because while we live on the plains of CO there are a couple rogue mountain lions that aren't scared of humans so we use them for protection also in the mountains in the backcountry when we are camping. Having a firearm for protection doesn't necessarily mean or only apply to using it from other people.
I'm sure I'm going to get torn apart for my thought and opinions on this subject as I can tell I am definitely in the minority on this subject, but I actually agree with the majority of the post @T.H.O.U. posted regarding the AR-15 and how the background checks work.
More food for thought....while Florida doesn't have a waiting period, and technically Colorado doesn't either (though the wait time for your background check to come back is in the hours-days because of a backlog) doesn't mean that someone from a neighboring state could come here and purchase a firearm of their choice and walk out with it that same day. If you are not a resident of CO you cannot purchase a handgun in person-it must be sent to a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer in your state of residence, you can purchase a "long" gun ie shotgun or hunting rifle. I know as a resident of CO I cannot go to NE and purchase a gun and take it home with me that day, there is a 3 day waiting period then it has to be transferred to a FFL in CO to complete the transfer/sale.
An AR-15 or any other semi-automatic firearm requires multiple trigger pulls to fire multiple rounds. It's not as easy as most people think to squeeze off 50 rounds in 9 seconds as someone above mentioned. In fact I'm not even sure how that's exactly possible for someone to do without a fully automatic rifle. The 50 round "magazines" are drums and honestly not very reliable....they tend to jam. Just ask James Holmes of the Aurora theater shooting....he had more than one and none of them were empty because they jammed up.
When it comes to hunting or even shooting competitions, a single bolt action firearm can take too much time. Think about this--when hunting the goal is always 1 shot 1 kill so that the animal you are hunting does not suffer. However, what happens if something spooks the animal just as you squeeze the trigger and instead of killing him, you wound him and now he's angry and charging you. Depending on the animal you may not have time to get another round out of your pocket and load your gun with an incredibly pissed off wild animal charging you. Some shooting competitions do have single shot contests, but some also have multiple round--as fast as possible while remaining as accurate as possible--contests.
I agree that something has to change because what we are doing isn't working, but I personally do not think banning guns is going to fix our problem because well if it did then there wouldn't be a drug problem either. Criminals don't follow the laws. But just as criminals don't follow laws, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Whether it's by gun, knife, bombings, cell phones, cars, etc....lay each of those items on a table and step away--do any of those items kill on their own? No...it takes someone to discharge them in some way. We hold people who drink and drive and kill someone responsible for their actions (provided they don't kill themselves in the process), same goes for those who text and drive and kill/injure someone. Yet those who chose to kill others either in actions of mass shootings or other shootings, aren't typically held accountable because they tend to take the "easy way out" so to speak and turn it into "suicide by cop" and have themselves shot or shoot themselves instead of facing the consequences of their actions. The biggest thing that needs to change is the stigma against mental illness....if people weren't looked down upon so horribly for having mental/psychiatric illnesses we might not be in such a horrible state of affairs.
I apologize for this being all over the board and possibly not making much sense flow wise, but I am wrestling an 8.5mo DS and trying to help my 5yo DS write his letters.
Editted to add--
I also need to note that ALL of our firearms are locked in a secure safe. My husband does keep his 9mm handgun in a smaller safe in his nightstand just in case. Also, my 5yo knows what guns are, what they are to be used for, and also knows that he is NOT allowed to touch them. We hunt as a family and he has been with us while we deer/antelope hunt for food.
I too have been raised around firearms my entire life. Yes kids are curious by nature but if they are exposed and taught the how's and why's they are less likely to get themselves into trouble with them than those who aren't exposed. Same is true with alcohol for example. Look at countries overseas such as Italy for example where drinking is common and not so taboo. There's much less underage drinking and the like. Education is key. -
@Treytonsmom2011: so, I don't really "get" guys. I live in an extremely liberal area of the northeast, no one I know hunts, and the only time I've seen a gun in person (not strapped to a police officer) is in high school - the father in the family I babysat was a detective and had several all locked in a safe that that was also behind a locked door. I just wanted to say that I really appreciated your perspective. I don't agree with your postion, but I think it's going to take a lot of calm conversations between people like you and people like me to reach a middle, workable ground on this issue. So thanks for chiming in, even if you're out numbered
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@Treytonsmom2011: I haven't had a chance to read the rest of the comments on this thread. But YES to everything you wrote!
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@Treytonsmom2011: I don't have anything to add except that my DH comes from a hunting family and I agree with everything you said.
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@Treytonsmom2011: I'm not going to tear you apart, but I would love to hear what changes you would support that might decrease the number of mass shootings that we've been seeing lately.
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@Treytonsmom2011: thank you for this perspective. Like @Madison43: I am in the liberal north east and have no grown up around guns. I don't agree with much of this but I do really appreciate reading a calm argument like that so i can educate myself.
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@Treytonsmom2011: Thank you. welk said, I wish more people saw things this way.
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@mrbee: I don't have a lot of time to reply right now because i'm heading to bed, but I wanted to say that I think a big part of the reason we have so many mass shootings now is because of the media....Look at how much publicity the shooters (whether they live or not) are receiving....it's their 15 min of fame and for those with severe mental illness, sometimes that is just the attention they need. Much like "naughty kids" who act out repeatedly...it's a cry for attention. They don't care whether it's positive or negative. Then there are lots of copy-cats as well.
I know that with the Aurora theater shooting, for days, weeks, months and even in the years since, it's not very often that you hear James Holmes name on our local news because the public outcry was so great against putting his name in the news. The media need to stop sensationalizing the shootings. Focus solely on the victims and their families and not on the shooters.
Beyond that, education is key. I think that everyone could benefit from a basic firearms training class. Doesn't have to be one where you shoot at the range after, but to sit through either a basic firearms safety class, or better yet a Concealed Carry Permit class, many people's eyes would be opened to what laws are already out there and how the system works.
I'm not sure why people tend to fixate on gun control and making it stricter when there are more people injured/killed by stabbings, car accidents, and the like vs firearms. But no one blames knife or car manufactures for deaths caused by car accidents or stabbings. Nor do they blame alcohol manufacturers for drunk driving accidents or cell phone companies for texting/distracted driving accidents....
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@Treytonsmom2011: I appreciate you sharing your viewpoints so calmly and clearly - it is refreshing to hear that from the other side without the bombastic rhetoric and cries of protecting an antiquated amendment, so thank you for that. I can understand some of your arguments in terms of hunting and protecting yourself in the backcountry etc, but I still don't think that means everyone needs to have access to all manner of guns on a daily basis.
In your posts, you stated that knives, cars, mobile phones etc can all be used as murder weapons as well, yet no one is calling for a ban on them as well. The glaring difference between those items and guns are that they all serve a useful purpose and their primary intent is not to kill; guns serve no other purpose than to kill. There is also the significant point that none of those items can kill on as great of scale in as short a period of time as a gun can, particularly something like the AR-15 etc.
You also said that it is a mental health problem, which is a common argument. I haven't checked any statistics, but I would hazard a guess and say that the US does not have a monopoly on the crazy in the world. I would guess mental illness is prevalent at a similar rate to most of the other developed nations of the world, yet, no other developed country in the world seems to have the issue of mass shootings that the US does. My British born/Aussie raised husband agrees it's a mental health problem in the US, but he thinks it's a problem with the the population as a whole that so many think they need to arm themselves and envision themselves in a John Wayne type scenario if ever caught in a shooting.
(Not directed at anything you specifically said, just comments in general on the news etc)Back to the more serious note though, I said in an earlier post that other countries have experienced mass shootings and taken steps to eliminate or severely restrict gun ownership, which has resulted in zero mass shootings in the 20 years since their events (speaking specifically of the UK and Australia). Homicide rates are similar, that is always going to be a constant, but there has been no significant loss of life due to a gun in a single incident. I am an American but have spent the past ten years living in the UK and Australia and to be honest, I feel a thousand times safer here than I do in the States. Here, the thought that someone may come to my child's school and start shooting up the place never, ever crosses my mind. I don't worry that if I cut someone off in traffic, they may pull a gun on me. Yes, there are going to be terrorist incidents at times, but unfortunately, that is a reality of the day and age we live in - arming more people is not going to eliminate that problem. I read a statement from a Tennessee congressman who is giving away two AR-15s at an event this week and he said that if people in the crowd in Orlando had had guns or an AR-15 on them, the loss of life would have been significantly less. I cannot imagine anything causing a greater loss of life than having a cross room shootout amongst the general public! Those are the John Wayne type comments I was referring to - it just makes no sense and the answer to the gun problem is not to add more guns into the mix.
Anyway, I can tell you are quite firm in your beliefs so I'm not attempting to change your mind. I just wanted to thank you for expressing your opinion and express my opinion on some of the points you made.
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@Treytonsmom2011: thanks for posting. my husband is a gun owner and we've talked about a lot of this, in terms of how guns are sold and now they are used, but I am not capable of explaining it well myself. What I will say is that I really don't like the assumption that gun owners are these sort of impulsive, uneducated, delusional John Wayne types who are obsessed with their guns. Defensive, maybe, but defensive doesn't equal obsessed. And not thinking gun control is the answer to all this doesn't mean one doesn't care or cares more about guns than people.
And fwiw I don't own my own guns, have no attachment to guns, etc. But I absolutely understand why people want to protect themselves, and that others use guns for other legitimate reasons as mentioned above.
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@Treytonsmom2011: I think the difference is that I basically live in fear that I am going to get a call from my son's school that tells me that he has been shot because someone with a gun forced their way into his school. Even the fact that they have to have lockdown drills, is that the way I want my 5 year old to have to live in this world? No.
When I put my son in a car, I do everything I can to make sure he is as safe as possible. We bought a car that has a high saftey rating, he's in a 5 point harnessed seat, my husband and I do not get behind the wheel when we have consumed even a small amount of alcohol. Could we still get into an accident, of course we could, but at least we have been able to make choices to be safer.
With a school shooting, there is literally nothing I as a parent can do. To me, that's the difference and I will not sit back and just let the status quo continue.
eta: My husband is not American. He comes from a country where military service is mandatory, he served. I believe if you want to learn to handle weaponry, this is the place to do it. Other than that, I have zero interest in learning how to handle a gun. I will educate myself on the types and classifications but I do not want to go further than that personally.
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Australia banned automatic and semi-automatic rifles (like the AR-15) and shotgun and had a mandatory buy-back program that removed 650,000 guns from people's homes. The result was a DRASTIC drop in firearm related suicides and homicides!
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
@Treytonsmom2011: I'm not going to address your whole post, and I really appreciate you putting out your perspective on things, but one thing I did note was your mention of the different types of shooting competitions. I would think that if we were to outlaw certain types of guns, the competitions would just change to accommodate the types of guns allowed. And so would manufacturers.
Maybe we should ban semi-automatic firearms that use magazines. Make guns that hold up to 6 bullets that you have to manually replace one bullet at a time (I know these already exist - just not sure what they are called). Perhaps that would help limit the number of mass murders we have. And your gun could still have more than 1 bullet for @Treytonsmom2011:'s hunting example (of injuring an animal and having it charging you).
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@Treytonsmom2011: We have to compromise - no one is proposing banning all guns so to use that as your basis of an argument against gun control is a straw man-tactic. Just because AR-15s could be used for a legitimate purpose does not mean that they should remain legal. Their danger is too great. I really don't care if they are more accurate for shooting coyotes. Is your husband's ability to shoot coyotes more important than 49 individual's right to life?
I just don't get it. Everyone is so scared of ISIS when it's clear that the lack of gun control in this country is the real threat to every day Americans. I feel way more terrorized by the NRA than I do Islamist extremists.
@Ree723: Thank you for your response.
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@Treytonsmom2011: Just reiterating my sentiments that I whole heartedly agree. I do not live in fear of someone shooting up my sons school. I honestly have more anxiety that someone is going to get into a car accident with us that causes injury to us and LO. While the mass shootings have increased in frequency the odds of us being a victim are pretty low compared to other ways we can be killed. While I was in school in one year there were two instances in my dorm of a roommate stabbing and killing their roommate in their sleep. That worries me more than mass shootings. And that isn't meant to deteriorate just how awful mass shootings are. Gun laws vary state to state and I do think there is a lot of improvement that can be made to background checks and screenings, which will help to reduce the amount of people with access. I don't think guns are only meant to kill other people. I think it's the popular choice, but not the only function. I do believe in education about guns and we fully intend to teach LO about gun safety. They are a part of our life and I think it's important to teach them so they can avoid accidents. Most kids I see think guns are toys.. Whether through video games or regular toys and I intend on teaching him they are not toys.
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@petitenoisette: please don't take this as an attack, but I just want to point out that while te Boston bombers didn't declare themselves with ISIS, they were extremists who used pressure cookers and not guns.
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@Eko: @petitenoisette: I can't legally buy a switchblade in the US. So it's not like knives arent controlled. And a switchblade isn't going to harm as many people as quickly as a semi automatic.
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On a lighter note I would like to add that this may be one of the few times we have been having a serious conversation on HB and no one has said anything nasty or offensive.
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@Maysprout: I completely agree with you. It just personal feelings at this point.
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@petitenoisette: Yes, you phrased it it perfectly and I couldn't agree more.
@Eko: Did you mean to address me, as I was the one that wrote I live in fear of someone shooting up my son's school?
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@looch: no, I just was sort of saying it as a general blanket statement, because I think a lot of people has expressed similar sentiment.
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@Treytonsmom2011: @Eko: but the same thing goes with car ownership too. Theres been restrictions on when places can sell alcohol before closing time, increased safety regulations and scores of other measures that have decreased car related injuries over the years. I'm skeptical of over regulation too but it doesn't mean all regulation is bad.
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@Eko: While I think it's awesome that you don't have any anxiety about someone coming into your child's school and shooting them, I don't think that negates the anxiety that a lot of other parents DO feel about this subject. Just because you aren't worried about it doesn't mean it won't happen or that other people shouldn't worry about it, since this is something that HAS happened. Mass shooting happen every single day in the US and there are legit things we could do about it.
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@Ree723: I agree with you. I've lived in European countries with strict control laws. Ironically, one of my last experiences in the US before moving to Europe was having a gun flashed in front of me on a public bus in a major US city. Nothing happened but I felt terrorized and my heart nearly stopped. Needless to say, I felt safer during the next few years on packed Euro subways and street cars knowing there were regulations preventing most people from carrying guns.
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
"The problem is mental illness."
"Some people need a gun for hunting or defense against wild animals."
Insert various other comments along this line. I'm sorry but I am tired of hearing these defenses as this crisis intensifies... They seem incredibly tone-deaf to the problem at hand.
I don't understand why you need something like this to hunt deer. 
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