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@Truth Bombs: I had to google why Kinder chocolates were banned.
Kinder Surprise eggs, an Italian brand of egg-shaped chocolate candies containing a toy "surprise" inside, have been banned in the States since long before they were first manufactured in the early '70s. That's because the US has had a ban on candies with embedded toys since 1938.
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@bluestriped bee: oh my God
that text and link are beyond words..@truth bombs: powerful image
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@bluestriped bee: That is sick. You know the NRA refers to the AR-15 as "America's Rifle" (as a play on the "AR")? Although, I suppose that's accurate, as america is the only country dumb enough to make it so accessible. Interesting that they refer to federal funding for "anti-gun" research. As far as I'm aware, we're talking just gun research period. I guess they're basically admitting they know it won't turn out in their favor. Which is why it hasn't been done yet, of course.
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I feel like this is worth a watch: https://www.facebook.com/ezraklein/videos/10154000566913410/
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@Truth Bombs: that's a powerful image.
I'm all for gun control, whatever it means. Mass shootings happen way too often. The single scariest moment of my life is when someone pointed a gun at me. I hate that I have to worry about my daughter's safety when we are in a crowd. It really feels like no where is safe.
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Read this article today. I think this would be a good starting point compromise.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-hayes/2016/06/i-am-an-ar-15-owner-and-ive-had-enough/
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@smocks: Thanks for posting that. I think it is a great starting point and I wonder if my friends that do own AR-15 would read it or brush it off. I do wonder why 10 rounds. I think 10 rounds is still too many. What about ban anything that can hold 7 or more rounds. I'm somewhat letting gun owners carry revolvers that can carry 6 rounds. (Though a part me thinks you shouldn't be carrying anything more than 3 rounds, but I would never own a gun so I'm biased.)
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@Truth Bombs: I saw a comment on one article pointing to this meme. Basically the commenter said: So, America is the place where you can be trusted to buy however many guns you like and yet you can't be trusted not to eat the plastic toys inside candy. Got it.
Pretty much sums it up for me.
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@yoursilverlining: @bluestriped bee: I saw the same meme, but with a banned book.
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@smocks: I've been thinking along the same lines. And I think the most important two things that need to happen are restricting magazine capacity for private citizens (or security contractors when off duty!), and improvements to the background check system. This wasn't even a guy who privately told his shrink he wants to kill people. He was a person of interest to the FBI.
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I haven't had time to keep up and respond to everyone. But one comment by @Truth Bombs: reply to me bothered me. I NEVER ONCE said that my husband's "right" (though I NEVER SAID it was his right to own an AR-15, just that he does and explained why) trumped human life! I find that incredibly OFFENSIVE. NOR did I said that the victims of the Aurora theater shooting were anything but lucky that the drum magazines failed....Believe me I know how lucky they are that his weapons failed. All I was merely trying to point out is that the AR-15 is not an automatic rifle which is what the definition of assault rifle is. A fully automatic rifle. Typically used in combat/military situations.
I would wholeheartedly agree with national laws being the same for universal background checks.
There were quite a few posters who think that the "mental health" argument is BS for lack of better terminology, however I think that the stigma the US has (as a whole) about mental health/illness is a huge piece of the puzzle when it comes to mass shootings/deaths of any sort. Honestly, how many healthy, mentally sound people get up one morning and think "Hey I'm going to go shoot up a movie theater full of people tonight?" Or walk into an elementary school and shoot a bunch of innocent children? I'm going to venture to guess the answer would be ZERO. As proven in the Aurora theater case, he is/was SEVERELY unstable and mentally ill. Have you seen his journal entries? Heard from his psychiatrist? That man was far from sane and yet wicked smart and getting his PhD in neuroscience. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold from the Columbine HS shooting also had mental illnesses. IMO, if the country as a whole was more supportive of mental health and treatment, there would be less of these tragedies in general.
After the OKC bombing we had NUMEROUS bomb threats at my hs....I was a freshman in HS when Columbine happened and we never had active shooter drills. I don't think that we (collective) should be naive enough to think that banning guns or whatever is going to change the nature of society.....so instead we should be proactive in teaching our children how to handle various situations-- active shooter, bomb threats, fires, tornados, hurricanes, etc. Before anyone goes on the attack and says that fire, tornado, and hurricane drills are not on the same scale as active shooter or bomb threats, I'm not saying they are (however a fire could be a form of "terrorist attack"). I'm merely saying it's preparing our children for something that is possible.
@yoursilverlining: In your list you did forget yet another CO school that had a shooting...Platte Canyon High School in 2006. While it wasn't a "mass shooting" as "only" 2 people were killed, it still was an outside gunman who came in and took 6 hostages before killing 2 of them. Another shooting not listed was again NOT a "mass shooting" but was on a school campus was the shooting at Purdue University in Jan 2014...my own brother was not only a student at Purdue at the time but was IN THE SAME BUILDING as the shooting and his best friend was in the room NEXT DOOR to where the shooting took place. So I'm not immune or naive about what can happen.
As someone pointed out that knives aren't banned because they can't kill as many people as quickly, I didn't say it can. However a pressure cooker full of nails can and did (killed 3 injured 264 others....yet nails and pressure cookers aren't banned or even restricted in any way. Why? Because they only killed 3 people? That EASILY could've been way way more. Violence is everywhere....it's not just the US that has a problem....Look at Paris...Belgium....in recent news.
Like I said when I posted the first time, I knew I was the minority by a long shot and I knew that I would be "attacked" for lack of better terms and up until a few posts I was pleasantly surprised. However there were a few posts that made me take a step back and consider not even replying because there are a few who feel like anyone who doesn't agree with their opinions is wrong and seem to come across as close minded toward any other argument.
I've noticed a lot of close-minded and attacking opinions lately--surrounding any sort of tragedy--the Cini zoo, the Disney alligator, Orlando....Always wanting to place blame on someone. I don't post much and I probably won't post much more because I clearly don't fit in with the mindset of this forum. I don't live in a city or even suburbs. I am incredibly more rural than the vast majority of the demographic here. I lurk because I do find good info, but am seeing more and more attacking of those who's opinions don't align with others.
I'll stick with educating my kids about firearms, firearm safety, and other threats. While I wish I could put them in a bubble and protect them from all of the bad in the world it's not possible so education is key.
With that, I will go back to lurking and keeping my obviously very different and unwelcome opinions to myself.
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@Mama Bird: "This wasn't even a guy who privately told his shrink he wants to kill people. He was a person of interest to the FBI." -- YES!! THIS!!! He NEVER should've been able to pass a background check....the system or someone really screwed that one up..... And along with the rest of your comment which was alluding to the Aurora shooter--I'm sorry but IMO when you tell your shrink that you are going to kill massive amounts of people and HOW you are planning to do it--ALL patient/dr confidentiality goes out the window! Just like certain people are "mandatory reporters" for abuse--in a cases like these that should've been reported right away....I understand HIPAA, I worked in the medical field but I'm sorry if a patient told me they had plans (of any kind let alone this detailed) you bet I would've reported it....
Back to lurking now because I missed @Mama Bird's comment before I posted.
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@Truth Bombs: I will come out and say it. While this thread is controversial in nature, and this site has a history of people bullying those with differing opinions, you just did a fine job of taking a topic that people so far have been accepting of different values and making it just that, once again a topic where people get bullied. I am sure you will think your beliefs are worth making those comments over, but what others have said is no where to an extreme level
that deserves it.@mrbee I hope that for the successful continuation for this website you are able to make it a place where people of differing viewpoints are able to freely discuss their thoughts without reprocussion.
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@Treytonsmom2011: I totally agree with you about the shrink thing, the reason I mentioned it is that I keep thinking how these psychos might be banned from having guns, and I can't think of a way. I mean, let's say there's a way for mental health professionals to report if they think someone is a danger. If someone made detailed threats, that's pretty cut and dried. What about someone who is just generally volatile and had anger management problems? Or the person who said he hates his neighbor's guts? Or who is severely depressed? Or mildly depressed? Or on meds but gets delusional on skipping a dose? With mental health issues, it's got to be so much harder to decide who's a real threat and who isn't. So I wish we'd start by making sure the more obvious cases, like potential terrorists, are banned.
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Sandy Hook broke my heart as a mother, Orlando just tears it further apart.
We have so many problems that need to be addressed- mental health, hate, and guns. So much needs work and there are no easy answers that everyone is going to agree with.
I was raised with guns in the house, I know how to shoot, I've taken the classes, but I have zero understanding of why we need civilian access to high capacity magazines other than as a macho toy. They have zero use in hunting, and frankly I do not want these anywhere near my children. I'm being selfish on this one, my opinion is to start here.
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I am late to the conversation and really most of my thoughts are already expressed. I will say this, since the moment I heard of what happened in Sandy Hook my world changed. My oldest at the time wasn't in school but he is now close to the age or the same age as many of the children lost in Newton that day. When I send him on the bus I hold my breath until he walks into my house again. At back to school night I found myself looking to see how close his classroom was to the entrance, searching for alternative exits close to his classroom, checking security cameras and exits, etc When my parents sent me to school 30 something years ago I dont think any of these thoughts flashed in their minds at all and I really do pray and hope by the time my son has children to send to school he also doesnt look for exit points anymore.
Clearly our country has a problem with guns. The NRA has seered it into our rhetoric that owning a gun is a right? Owning a gun, owning anything is not a right, you dont have a right to have something, its a privilege. I cant stroll into a gun store and get a gun without giving them something in return, money or goods. Saying its my right to a gun is not going to get me a gun which tells me this isnt a right so much as a privilege and privileges should come with some responsibilities.
People have been killing others since the dawn of time. Sadly we are never going to stop that but couldnt we make it less easy for the bad guys to get their hands on weapons too? Most people in the world tend to do whats easiest, I dont think bad people are any different, and in this country it is far too easy to get your hands on a gun period.
I shared that kinderegg post earlier today when I saw it. In that example we didnt ban all chocolate (because what monster would do that!) merely the one we saw as a threat. Why cant we take that logic and insist that some weapons are just not necessary for civilian life. Ronald Regan has been quoted saying those exact words about certain types of guns.
I urge everyone to write and call your reps and Senators. We need to do something, doing nothing is clearly not doing anything at all for us and we clearly need to be doing something.
In a perfect world for me guns would be regulated in the types and amounts and kinds you can get and gun owners would received the same amount of scrutiny and responsibility for their weapons as parents are given on social media. We hold bars responsible for their drunk patrons and we need to hold gun owners responsible for their weapons so that they dont fall into hands of those who should not have them.
Every night before I go to bed I think about Charlotte Bacon, Noah Pozner, Jack Pinto, Madeline Hsu, Dylan Hoxley and so on. If anything we have got to do better for the future of our children and know that those children didnt die futilely for no purpose at all.
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@Mrs. Chocolate: Exactly. I do the same when my oldest goes to school. It hurts to hear his teachers talking about the latest lock down drill at his special ed preschool. I am glad they are prepared just in case, but I want to remove some of those potential threats for killing so many people in a matter of seconds.
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@Treytonsmom2011 or anyone that wants to respond: Just one more question, then, on the mental health aspect of things.
The Sandy Hook shooter was mentally ill. He did not own the gun, it was his mother's. If we're talking about limiting the ability of mentally ill people to access weapons, does it extend to their families as well? Or are we just talking about their ability to go into a store and purchase one? Because I think the solution isn't so black and white in this case...are we solving for the right problem?
I think the question I am really trying to ask, but am kind of afraid to is this: If your child is diagnosed with a mental illness, would you be willing, as a family to give up your guns?
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@Treytonsmom2011: I'm not sure if my post was one you considered to be attacking you but that was not my intent. You pointed out reasons for owning an AR-15 and I countered that those reasons do not seem to justify their use considering the fact that they are so deadly to humans.
I think many people actually thanked you for your post and it's differing perspective; when you posted you admitted that your views were probably different than most of the posters on the board which seems to be true. The posts then continued as you predicted to be mostly in favor of stronger gun control, though most of the more strongly worded responses to this effect were certainly not targeted to you. And now you are upset by this, calling everyone closed minded and saying you are being attacked and that we are trying to place blame on someone. I certainly agree with you about the gorilla and tragic alligator situations, but in this case, I do think that there are people to blame for refusing to address the public health crisis that guns are presenting in this country. But that person is not you, it is our lawmakers and the NRA who refuse to compromise for the safety AND FREEDOM of this country's people to live without being in a state of perpetual fear.
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Mental health is definitely an issue and lack of care is not a joke by any means but it is also a very personal and individual choice to seek help and care. You can't force someone into treatment just like you can't force a person to get treatment for cancer or alcoholism if they don't want to. We can't look at someone and deem they mentally unfit and demand they get help so this requires a lot of self awareness and reliance on individuals. Also many mental illnesses can be hidden especially if people don't want others to realize something might be wrong.
While I do think we need less stigma on mental health in general as well better care overall as a nation I can't concede it's the sole answer to this issue.
We lock up our medications away from our children because we know they aren't to be trusted with them. We clearly teach our children not to touch things they shouldn't obviously but we also make it a point to remove hazards from them and not to make it easy for them to reach, locks and higher up cabinets. While we are aware and helping those among us struggling with mental issues isn't it best to make sure guns and weapons aren't as easy to access as well.
Access is a huge part of gun control I feel. Access is too readily available without much thought on who is accessing these weapons. I have spent more time pondering over a car purchase, my wedding gown, baby gear than it takes to get a gun in your hand in some parts of this country. Florida has no waiting time for guns needing two hands to hold like the one used in the Pulse shooting. How can that be logical that someone can just get a gun as easy as it is to the groceries to get food for dinner. No one needs a gun immediately and no one should be allowed to have one that quickly period.
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The thing that bothers me about the mental health argument is that it seems like the people who make it, are also very anti-access to free/subsidized health care. I'm not saying this about anyone in particular here, but when right wing pundits try to deflect the cause away from access to guns, to better healthcare, yet they oppose Obamacare, it makes me incredibly frustrated.
Yes, we obviously need better mental health care in this country. We also need better access to health care in general.
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@ShootingStar: I absolutely agree with that, In truth its why I can not vote Republican. Its not necessarily against any one person who sides with the Republican party but the party as a whole is the one that always insists that we need to look at mental illness while voting down any laws that allow better healthcare access, they preach the Bible but vote down all kinds of assistance and help, insist every child be born but then want to remove programs like WIC or planned parenthood which are necessary for woman and babies. I simply cant follow a party that insists on certain principles while also taking away things to help others in need. Im not saying the Democratic party are Saints but they generally vote for keeping healthcare, WIC, assistance etc.
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@Mama Bird: I think this probably varies state to state but I've read that psychologists must report in certain instances. It is probably a very high bar since patients need to generally feel that their sessions are confidential in order for them to open up and for therapy to be effective.
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@ShootingStar: It's just another example of the glaring hypocrisy of the Republican party.
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@sunny: @Mama Bird: @Treytonsmom2011: Reporting does vary by state. Some states require it, some "allow" it, leaving it up to the clinical judgement of the provider. In PA, homicidal ideation is a commitable "symptom." So if a patient admits that they have a plan to kill someone, they can be involuntarily committed to an inpatient psychiatric facility for further evaluation. But then the psychiatrist at the inpatient facility has to make the call as to how serious the person is, do they have access to the means to carry out their plan (ie, if they say they're going to use an assault rifle to mow down 50 people in a dance club, do they have access to said assault rifle?), are they being told to commit said plan by auditory hallucinations that can be quieted with medications, etc? Based on their assessment, they decide whether or not to report to the police.
IMHO, it's one more thing that should be a federal regulation, not a state regulation. Much like gun purchasing laws, child abuse reporting laws... There's too much variance and it allows for too many people to slip through the cracks.
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@Mrs. Chocolate: Exactly! Trump wants to build this wall to keep Mexicans out and also keep Muslims out. How exactly are we going to find the money to build this wall? We also have to do it without raising taxes because most republicans don't want more taxes. And they want to go to war with ISIS because Obama apparently failed at it. Once again money... where is this supposed to come from? Yes, I'm definitely side tracking this conversation but it just boggles my mind by some of the beliefs I see most republicans have.
Anyway, I still have yet to see why someone needs a gun that has more than 7 rounds. Maybe we did focus too much on the word 'assault weapons' when the AR-15 is not classified as an assault weapon and also new information saying the Orlando shooter did not actually have an AR-15. It was another similar gun. The shooter still carried a gun with 30 rounds. My opinion on banning assault weapons has evolved to the banning of any gun that can hold more than 7 rounds. I know some people don't like us referring to other countries but Canada has limited handguns to 10 rounds and rifles to 5 rounds. Why don't we adopt a similar law? Canadians are familiar to hunting and they work around the issue.
In talking to my gun owning friends that don't want the AR-15 banned. I'm seeing the issue is they don't think this is a gun problem. That it is a terrorist or a mental health issue. Both sides think the other is focusing too much on guns or terrorists. I've realized that both sides won't back down and anything we say is not going to sway them or change their mind. I've had to agree to disagree because we weren't getting anywhere. It is so sad that some people think guns aren't the issue. Can someone honestly go up to one of the victims of any of shootings and tell them in the face that guns aren't the issue?
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I thought this was interesting:
"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47," the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/family-ar-15-inventor-speaks-out-n593356 -
@looch: Because you tagged me I will answer--I haven't read any of the other comments but to answer your question--yes if we were unable to properly lockup our firearms in our home in a way to keep them away from a mentally ill child, then yes we would either give them up completely or lock them up in a trusted relatives home (most likely my parents because they have a huge vault in their basement with a bank vault door that they use for their firearms as well as a tornado shelter.
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@petitenoisette: No I don't believe (without going back and re-reading all of the posts) that your post is one I'm referring to...It was actually @TruthBombs post that I commented after and tagged her in that I found incredibly offensive. I have a very hard time with people who get on their "high horse" attempting to make a point by belittling others opinions. We are all individuals and we all have our own opinions. I recognized this and I even stated it in my first post that mine was going to be different. Everyone was playing nicely and having a good discussion then all of the sudden she decided that I was a horrible person for my opinion on the subject at hand and was incredibly rude. I noticed she hasn't come back to acknowledge my response either.
I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done but I don't know what the answer is. Honestly I do not believe banning all guns is the answer like some posters and the public feel....because then only criminals will have firearms and that leaves everyone else sitting ducks. I'm fine with having a waiting period and stricter background checks. I have nothing to hide. As I said previously, I live in a state with stricter gun control laws and honestly I don't think it has made that much difference.
I'm afraid that banning one type of firearm could very quickly become a slippery slope. I know many posters here feel as though no one needs or should own a firearm...I personally disagree with that. Look at Chicago for example-- some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, along with DC and guess where has the most gun violence--Chicago. Gun control laws do nothing to keep the guns out of the hands of the people who shouldn't have them. It only disarms the responsible gun owners. Personally I like the idea that I can defend myself, my home, and my family in the event that I need to because if I were to rely on the police I would be waiting a minimum of 40 min unless I happened to get lucky when I called 911 and there was a cop in the immediate area. Response time to my home is well over 30 minutes, even in the case of bad accident, fire, robbery etc. Yes I live that rurally...
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@Treytonsmom2011: Chicago doesn't actually have that much stricter gun laws than some other major cities:
And many people in Illinois just get their guns from neighboring states that are easier, like Indiana. In order to be truly effective with gun control, it has to be at a Federal level. If I can just cross over into the next state and pick up a gun, it doesn't really matter what my state's gun laws are that make it difficult.
I think the majority of people don't propose we ban all guns. That would never happen anyway. But why does anyone needs a semi-automatic gun that uses a magazine? It seems if you had to load your gun one bullet at a time (and I'm fine with a gun being able to have ~6 bullets at a time), that would cut down on a LOT of fatalities from mass shootings!
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@Treytonsmom2011: I read this whole thread and not many people said they would like all guns to be banned. A lot of people (even people who own guns) said they think certain guns should be banned (semi-automatic and guns that allow magazines with X amount of rounds in it.)
I think the same question I see that over and over is why anyone needs a gun that holds a magazine with more than 7 rounds.
If you can explain your reason, I think it would help this discussion.
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@Treytonsmom2011: Thank you for your response, I really appreciate your participation in this thread. It's important for both sides, you know?
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@Adira: Yes absolutely agreed!
Gun control laws need to be federal and across the board or yes they wont work if you can simply thwart your own states laws and find a way to obtain guns from a laxer state. We need unified across the board laws in order for anything to be effective or yes gun control laws wont work, they lack the teeth to actually do much if you can work your way around them.
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Did you guys see this today? So disappointing that they can't get anything done. If our senators can't come together after an attack like this will they ever?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/senate-gun-votes-congress/index.html(If you don't want to click-quick summary is 4 separate measures failed in the senate...)
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@charlotte: if they can't vote for what the people want, then it's our duty to vote them out of office. This is ridiculous.
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@charlotte: Oh for f*ck's sake! Useless twats who are more concerned with retaining their seats and lining their pockets than doing what is best for the country, and what their constituents want. To say I'm disgusted that even the smallest measure couldn't be agreed upon is to put it mildly.
ETA: Honestly though, am I surprised? No. If 20 babies being murdered in their classroom the week before Christmas couldn't spark any change, nothing ever will.
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@Ree723: totally share the same sentiment.
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@charlotte: @Mrs.Someone: @Ree723: @lamariniere: Disgusting!
We need to vote these a-holes out of office!
that text and link are beyond words..
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