for non compliance with obamacare. "The company opposes providing some contraceptives to employees through its company health care plan on religious grounds, saying some contraceptive products, like the morning after pill, equate to abortion."
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/27/hobby-lobby-faces-millions-in-fines-for-bucking-obamacare/
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Lots of companies are opposing this on similar grounds...
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Yeah, I don't want to get too into it, but I wish companies would realize that regardless of their own personal beliefs, the needs of their employees needs to be the most important thing. Especially companies like Hobby Lobby, where their business is selling commodities to people, not promoting religion. Not all of their employees will have the same thoughts about certain contraceptives, and those that do, don't have to get them. I'll get off my soapbox now.
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good!
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that just made my day!
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@Bookworm: Agreed. I can sort of see where Catholic organizations feel the definitions are too narrow -- they employ people who aren't Catholic, etc. -- because the organization itself it quite obviously very faith-based. But... Hobby Lobby? Chic-Fil-A? Just because your CEO happens to believe that a pill that prevents implantation is somehow an abortifacient... doesn't mean you're a "religious organization." And let's get real -- this isn't about faith for a lot of opponents, it's about cost. Sorry.
I have no problem getting on my soapbox about this topic.
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@ladyfingers: +1
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Also, since these companies probably aren't keen on paying or even providing maternity leave, they may want to reconsider their stance on providing insurance that covers birth control.
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@ladyfingers: Haha good one!
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Good! It sucks for the employees who will suffer but maybe they should take this opportunity to find employment elsewhere. I couldn’t imagine working for a company who would risk my financial well being just to prove a point. Keep personal beliefs out of the workplace. Trust me, Hobby Lobby, no one is questioning your allegiance to the lord. Jesus pretty much projectile vomited in every corner of that place.
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Just curious -
How does the nature of their business determine if their organization should adhere to these standards? What about a bible printing company? Is that a secular or religious company?
If people want those benefits, and aren't aligned with the companies beliefs, shouldn't they should look for employment elsewhere?
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I'm so glad they aren't comprimising!!! I've been semi-following the lawsuit but its been awhile since I looked into it. I hope more Christian companies join them!
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@Thehistoryofus: An exempt, religious employer needs primarily inculcate religious values, primarily employ and serve people who share their religious tenets, and be nonprofit groups under federal tax law.
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@Thehistoryofus: I think it makes more sense to look for employment elsewhere if you don't agree w/the company's beliefs/stance. I say this as someone working for an employer who is exempt anyway...
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I dont think its just that easy to look for employment elsewhere. Even though unemployment is going down, there are still a lot of unemployed people searching for a job so it can take a while to find a new job depending on area, and skill level
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Saying that someone should just look for a job elsewhere is akin to telling women they should seek employment in a woman-friendly field. Society doesn't advance when that happen.
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@Mrsbells: I agree. I also don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation that women should have to ask their prospective employers which contraceptives they (the employers) are comfortable with, and which they fundamentally misunderstand and therefore won’t provide.
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I just think that if you voluntarily work for an organization that promotes Christian values, it shouldn't be a shock that they have a certain stance on abortion. Hobby Lobby is closed on Sundays, they play hymns all the time and I imagine there is a good amount of Bible-thumping stuff hanging up in the back room...I can't fathom wanting to work there if you didn't share similar values. So if I were uncomfortable with those things/had starkly differing beliefs/wanted coverage that they didn't offer based on their value code, I would personally look elsewhere for employment.
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@blackbird: agree.
I think there is no place in the workplace for people's personal religious beliefs. Believe what you want but don't deny your employees health coverage because you, on your religious high horse, believe that everyone else must adhere to your views.
I personally will not shop at hobby lobby anymore and I used to love that store. Separation of church and state people. Believe what you want but keep those beliefs out of government matters, under which health care falls of course.
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Interestingly, the Catholic Church just argued in a suit that 7 month fetus twins were not people...
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It makes it tricky that employers have power over their employees.
What if they made their own insurance that said we will only provide maternity services to married women or STD screening/treatment for married individuals because it's our belief that our employees should not be having sex before marriage.
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If their employer is willing to risk their well being by A. not providing coverage for certain things that an individual may need and B. being stubborn to the point where a company could very well risk bankruptcy and inevitably go under thus causing chain wide job loss then yes, I think these employees should seek employment elsewhere. It’s certainly not their fault that their employer is dragging them down because of their own religious beliefs but unfortunately, there’s not much that they can do about that. Hobby Lobby owners can and will do whatever they choose to do since it’s their company but I wouldn’t be surprised if they close their doors in the not so distant future. There’s only so long that a corporation can stay afloat while being fined $1.3 mill p/day.
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If the company is privately owned and birth control isn't a necessity, I don't see why it can't be the company's choice whether they provide it or not. Regardless if the decision is religious based or not.
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@hellocupcake: Because they are going against federal law.
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@Mrs. Jacks: Yes I heard about that case( catholics arguing the fetus wasnt a person) which really confused me!
@tororojo: But most regular people dont equate the morning after pill with abortion. And thats essentially waht hobby lobby has a problem with.
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I think that NO MATTER THE ISSUE no one should ever have to compromise their beliefs. I am SO made that Obama did this. Likewise I would be equally mad if a company that stood up for being pro-choice, same-sex equality etc was forced to pay/donate money to organizations they opposed their beliefs.
It's a two-way street.
The issue that makes me mad is just that it seems now companies can't stand up for their beliefs without paying a lofty price. Makes me livid when this is supposed to be a country of religious freedom.
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@Mrs. Jacks: Isn't that interesting! Clearly they only believe that "life starts at conception" when they're not slapped with a lawsuit.
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@blackbird: Thank you, yes. I was biting my tongue because I couldn't figure out a way to say what you said in that way.
@yoursilverlining: "Fundamentally misunderstand" -- yes.
@Mrs. Jacks: Wow.
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@Mrs. Pen: Just for the record, this is not something that just Obama did. This is part of a law that was developed, voted on, and passed by hundreds of people (447, to be exact).
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@Mrs. Pen: this is what makes me mad too.
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Hobby Lobby is a business in America where offering this pill is a federal law; it needs to follow the laws.
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@Mrs. Pen: How much power should an employer have over an employee? Say your secretary decided to live with her SO without getting married, should you be able to say well we normally provide healthcare but i don't want to support a life of sin?
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Man, this is something as a Canadian that would never in a million years be an issue......... I don't even know where to begin reacting to something like this. Pro-choice or Pro-life, a law is a law. Instead of spending all this money paying fines and defending themselves, wouldn't they be better off funding their interest group and obeying the law in the mean time?
I also think it's incredibly strange that major companies like this have religious platforms. I'm pretty sure Hobby Lobby is a craft store, what business is it of theirs what their employees medical needs are? If a teen girl contracted an STD from pre-marital sex, should she be denied antibiotics through her health benefits because that is a sin?
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@Mrs. Pen: Religious freedom doesn’t give you the freedom to impose your religious beliefs on others to their detriment in violation of laws or the constitution. It gives you the freedom to practice your own religion without fear of prosecution because you practice that religion. Religious freedom also means freedom from religion (one particular or all) as we have a separation between church and state.
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@Mrsbells: Good point...if they will pay for the bc pill but not morning after pill, I guess that's kind of a weird distinction.
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@Mrs. Pen: I actually find the idea that everyone's personal beliefs trump everything to be a very starnge idea. Imagine if stores who didn't believe in racial mixing were still allowed to have signs in teh windows saying 'no negroes' because that was what they personally believed. You see where I'm going with this right?
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@ladyfingers: in my mind, that doesn't make it right.
@yoursilverlining: they are being forced to support something they are morally against. Just try to imagine if you were in their position. They're not imposing their beliefs- they're trying to stand up for them. And right now they are being "persecuted" for that.
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@plantains: that's not exactly what I was getting at. I was talking religious freedom. Obviously I don't think that the law for employment equality applies to religious freedom.
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@ladyfingers: oh goodness. ..."Just because your CEO happens to believe that a pill that prevents implantation is somehow an abortifacient... doesn't mean you're a "religious organization." " <<<THANK YOU.
I'm not 100% sure people understand the difference between private business, public, religious organization, and/or one that is simply headed by a religious person.
Mind you as a devote Muslim, I don't think this is a religious issue. You will find many Christians' opinions who vary widely on this matter and you will find many Muslims' opinions who vary widely on this matter. I personally don't believe it will ever be black and white, Even people of the same faiths fight each other on this! So, someone needed to stand up (Obama) and make a law that just ends all question.@Mrs.Pen: you know I love you, right? But religious freedom means you get to practice your own religion with your self. You (not you, Hobby Lobby) can't impose it on others...even if you own the company and these people are your little minions. People have rights.
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